Will wind power make a comeback in shipping?
Discussion
While in an idilic world it would sound like an ideal solution. But the reality is, I doubt it very much. Too slow, too unpredictable and too labour intensive. Plus many/most of the worlds freight ships are massive. Way bigger and heavier than anything that used sails as a primary form of propulsion. It just wouldn't be practical or feasible on any level.
Quite a few years ago (10?) there was an article on something like BBC news' website with a demo of how a sail would work on a modern ship. It wasn't at all how you might imagine. It was there to aid propulsion rather than replace it. I'll try and find it.
Ships are being built to run on gas now rather than the toxic sludge that is HFO or whatever it's called.
ETA:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13460935
Ships are being built to run on gas now rather than the toxic sludge that is HFO or whatever it's called.
ETA:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13460935
Edited by 2fast748 on Wednesday 27th January 12:10
Maglev vacuum tunnels under the sea for sending cargo is the way of the future.
See Hyperloop - https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/how-long-hy...
See Hyperloop - https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/how-long-hy...
I was musing about this a few days ago. I wondered whether a combination of wind and battery power work for shipping.
When the wind is blowing in the right direction they could be operated by sail, and at other times the battery power could kick in with the power being generated from the wind or via a turbine operated by the moving water. I understand that electricity and water doesn’t mix very well, but every ship out there at the moment has electrical power circuits already, so clearly there are ways to overcome the issue.
I don’t see labour intensivity as being an issue in this day and age. A computer and an electric motor could replace an army of men clambering up rigging
Happy to be shot down in flames by those who know better
When the wind is blowing in the right direction they could be operated by sail, and at other times the battery power could kick in with the power being generated from the wind or via a turbine operated by the moving water. I understand that electricity and water doesn’t mix very well, but every ship out there at the moment has electrical power circuits already, so clearly there are ways to overcome the issue.
I don’t see labour intensivity as being an issue in this day and age. A computer and an electric motor could replace an army of men clambering up rigging
Happy to be shot down in flames by those who know better
I can absolutely see wind power returning as a form of assistance in favourable conditions. Given how operated try to eke fractions of a percentage of reductions in fuel costs a modern sailing rig would offer significant savings (and emissions reductions). I can only assume that at the moment the added complexity of such systems in manning and maintenance don't match the guaranteed savings.
In the 70s (after the Fuel Crisis) there was a Japanese tanker built with a pair of aerofoil blade-type computer-controlled sails, which delivered fuel savings of 30-50% over a conventional ship of the same size:
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/...
Even here in the UK there were a handful of sailing merchant ships in the coasting trade, delivering non- time-sensitive cargoes where their low day-to-day running costs and ability to access shallower ports could compensate for their slower speed - the last commercial cargo delivered by Thames sailing barge was in 1970, and the last shipment by a Cornish coaster ketch was in the early 1980s.
In the 70s (after the Fuel Crisis) there was a Japanese tanker built with a pair of aerofoil blade-type computer-controlled sails, which delivered fuel savings of 30-50% over a conventional ship of the same size:
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/...
Even here in the UK there were a handful of sailing merchant ships in the coasting trade, delivering non- time-sensitive cargoes where their low day-to-day running costs and ability to access shallower ports could compensate for their slower speed - the last commercial cargo delivered by Thames sailing barge was in 1970, and the last shipment by a Cornish coaster ketch was in the early 1980s.
2xChevrons said:
I can absolutely see wind power returning as a form of assistance in favourable conditions. Given how operated try to eke fractions of a percentage of reductions in fuel costs a modern sailing rig would offer significant savings (and emissions reductions). I can only assume that at the moment the added complexity of such systems in manning and maintenance don't match the guaranteed savings.
In the 70s (after the Fuel Crisis) there was a Japanese tanker built with a pair of aerofoil blade-type computer-controlled sails, which delivered fuel savings of 30-50% over a conventional ship of the same size:
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/...
Even here in the UK there were a handful of sailing merchant ships in the coasting trade, delivering non- time-sensitive cargoes where their low day-to-day running costs and ability to access shallower ports could compensate for their slower speed - the last commercial cargo delivered by Thames sailing barge was in 1970, and the last shipment by a Cornish coaster ketch was in the early 1980s.
That scale version offers huge savings! I can't see why this won't be used in the future. As noted operators try and get any savings they can and even one percent saving is substation.In the 70s (after the Fuel Crisis) there was a Japanese tanker built with a pair of aerofoil blade-type computer-controlled sails, which delivered fuel savings of 30-50% over a conventional ship of the same size:
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/...
Even here in the UK there were a handful of sailing merchant ships in the coasting trade, delivering non- time-sensitive cargoes where their low day-to-day running costs and ability to access shallower ports could compensate for their slower speed - the last commercial cargo delivered by Thames sailing barge was in 1970, and the last shipment by a Cornish coaster ketch was in the early 1980s.
But they would look more like a series of aeroplane wings sticking up than traditional sails.
I can't see any form of battery full electric cargo vessel working. It makes sense for small ferries such as inter island ones in Scotland but nothing bigger or with a longer route. At least with current battery tech.
Its on a small scale but it seems some people are doing it now! https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/23/sail...
rs1952 said:
I was musing about this a few days ago. I wondered whether a combination of wind and battery power work for shipping.
When the wind is blowing in the right direction they could be operated by sail, and at other times the battery power could kick in with the power being generated from the wind or via a turbine operated by the moving water. I understand that electricity and water doesn’t mix very well, but every ship out there at the moment has electrical power circuits already, so clearly there are ways to overcome the issue.
I don’t see labour intensivity as being an issue in this day and age. A computer and an electric motor could replace an army of men clambering up rigging
Happy to be shot down in flames by those who know better
SY Black Pearl can cross the Atlantic using zero carbon fuel. When under sail we can trail the shafts which generates enough Kw power to run all of the internal services inclusing aircon, laundry, galley etc. The remaining surplus power is stored in two large battery banks onboard that can be used to if no wind. The yacht at 110meters is designed as a superyacht to carrry the owner, guests and family along with the associated tenders and toys and 26 crew. There is no reason why an identical yacht could not be built with cargo holds rather than all of the fineary of a superyacht.When the wind is blowing in the right direction they could be operated by sail, and at other times the battery power could kick in with the power being generated from the wind or via a turbine operated by the moving water. I understand that electricity and water doesn’t mix very well, but every ship out there at the moment has electrical power circuits already, so clearly there are ways to overcome the issue.
I don’t see labour intensivity as being an issue in this day and age. A computer and an electric motor could replace an army of men clambering up rigging
Happy to be shot down in flames by those who know better
As an alternative the two MTU engines could be replaced by engines powered by Hydrogen as the yacht does generate enough Kw to make its own hydrogen. Speed wise... I have been onboard at 26 knots.
https://www.superyachts.com/news/story/sy-black-pe...
thewarlock said:
Absolutely.
Google "rotor sails"
They complement traditional main machinery arrangements, as opposed to replacing them.
Maersk have been tinkering with the idea and have installed some on one of their existing ships I believe.
The Magnus effect isn't really 'wind' powered though. And they still require something to power them. I'm also not sure how effective a pure rotor ship would be in high winds or stormy conditions.Google "rotor sails"
They complement traditional main machinery arrangements, as opposed to replacing them.
Maersk have been tinkering with the idea and have installed some on one of their existing ships I believe.
300bhp/ton said:
The Magnus effect isn't really 'wind' powered though. And they still require something to power them. I'm also not sure how effective a pure rotor ship would be in high winds or stormy conditions.
Well, to achieve the magnus effect, you have to rotate the body in a moving airstream, so if you have no wind, you'll have no magnus effect.And no-one is suggesting a pure rotor ship. Like I said, the intention is that they'll complement more traditional main machinery arrangements.
Like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Ship_1
FourWheelDrift said:
Maglev vacuum tunnels under the sea for sending cargo is the way of the future.
See Hyperloop - https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/how-long-hy...
Absolutely zero chance of this happening. The cost of digging the tunnels will be prohibitive in the first placeSee Hyperloop - https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/how-long-hy...
2xChevrons said:
I can absolutely see wind power returning as a form of assistance in favourable conditions. Given how operated try to eke fractions of a percentage of reductions in fuel costs a modern sailing rig would offer significant savings (and emissions reductions). I can only assume that at the moment the added complexity of such systems in manning and maintenance don't match the guaranteed savings.
In the 70s (after the Fuel Crisis) there was a Japanese tanker built with a pair of aerofoil blade-type computer-controlled sails, which delivered fuel savings of 30-50% over a conventional ship of the same size:
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/...
I think 'Speed and Power' did a feature on this in the '70s, "Return of the Windjammers" or something similar. In the 70s (after the Fuel Crisis) there was a Japanese tanker built with a pair of aerofoil blade-type computer-controlled sails, which delivered fuel savings of 30-50% over a conventional ship of the same size:
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/...
thewarlock said:
Well, to achieve the magnus effect, you have to rotate the body in a moving airstream, so if you have no wind, you'll have no magnus effect.
And no-one is suggesting a pure rotor ship. Like I said, the intention is that they'll complement more traditional main machinery arrangements.
Like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Ship_1
Yes it requires the wind to work, but it isn't wind powered. I suspect the op might find it interesting if they haven't come across these before. But Rotor ships do not answer the title to the thread And no-one is suggesting a pure rotor ship. Like I said, the intention is that they'll complement more traditional main machinery arrangements.
Like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Ship_1
rs1952 said:
I was musing about this a few days ago. I wondered whether a combination of wind and battery power work for shipping.
When the wind is blowing in the right direction they could be operated by sail, and at other times the battery power could kick in with the power being generated from the wind or via a turbine operated by the moving water. I understand that electricity and water doesn’t mix very well, but every ship out there at the moment has electrical power circuits already, so clearly there are ways to overcome the issue.
I don’t see labour intensivity as being an issue in this day and age. A computer and an electric motor could replace an army of men clambering up rigging
Happy to be shot down in flames by those who know better
When the ship is being blown along by the wind, the wind turbines charge up the batteries. When the wind drops, push the stored juice back through the wind turbines to turn them into fans, thus blowing the ship along. I see zero drawbacks to this scheme. When the wind is blowing in the right direction they could be operated by sail, and at other times the battery power could kick in with the power being generated from the wind or via a turbine operated by the moving water. I understand that electricity and water doesn’t mix very well, but every ship out there at the moment has electrical power circuits already, so clearly there are ways to overcome the issue.
I don’t see labour intensivity as being an issue in this day and age. A computer and an electric motor could replace an army of men clambering up rigging
Happy to be shot down in flames by those who know better
Flettner rotor and magnus effect.
https://www.dnvgl.com/expert-story/maritime-impact...
Vertical wings
https://www.dnvgl.com/expert-story/maritime-impact...
https://www.dnvgl.com/expert-story/maritime-impact...
Vertical wings
https://www.dnvgl.com/expert-story/maritime-impact...
Yertis said:
When the ship is being blown along by the wind, the wind turbines charge up the batteries. When the wind drops, push the stored juice back through the wind turbines to turn them into fans, thus blowing the ship along. I see zero drawbacks to this scheme.
This reminds me of being on a yacht rafted up on the harbour wall in Guernsey and a family was chatting to the couple on the inboard boat. They asked what the 'propeller' on the back was for and were told it was the wind generator."Oh, so that's a fan that blows into the sails to push the boat along? If there's no wind? I get it!"
300bhp/ton said:
Yes it requires the wind to work, but it isn't wind powered. I suspect the op might find it interesting if they haven't come across these before. But Rotor ships do not answer the title to the thread
I think you're being a bit pedantic here.Rotor sails make use of wind to lower fuel consumption.
If there's no wind, they don't work.
If there is, there are efficiency savings between 5-20%.
Energy doesn't come from no-where, so yes, whilst the wind does not power the rotor; it has to have it's own power supply, you'd have to be rather obtuse to argue that it's not wind power.
DNV published an article on them a couple of years ago, that also talks about using them in heavy seas and windy conditions, and seeing a boost in speed as a result of using the Flettners.
Found it:
https://www.dnvgl.com/expert-story/maritime-impact...
And I see now that someone else posted that article half an hour ago
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff