Maths question for an 8 year old
Maths question for an 8 year old
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Discussion

Heathwood

Original Poster:

3,032 posts

231 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
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Firstly, I wasn’t sure which sub forum to put this under so apologies if this is the wrong place.

Anyway, my 8 year old has been set some school work and, as the designated temporary home schooling teacher in our household, it’s for me to explain and assist.

The question is ‘Ben has 5 coins in his pocket. How much money might he have? Now, on the face of it I can’t imagine an 8 year old is actually expected to work out all the variations, although the follow on questions suggest otherwise.

Not being to the level of a year 3 maths student, I’m struggling to work out, if only out of curiosity, the total number of monetary variations. Can anyone assist? Presumably this is easier than it looks?

Thanks (from a slightly embarrassed dad)

CharlesElliott

2,264 posts

311 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
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Maybe it is expecting just 1 (or 2) answers?

Dixy

3,644 posts

234 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
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The answer is easy, anywhere between zero and many millions, The coins in his pocket are from the early learning centre to he has a private trust fund.

DanL

6,586 posts

294 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
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Are they not just asking for the maximum? I suppose for completeness you could provide the minimum too...

That said, I don’t know what level maths questions get asked at, and maybe I’m making it too easy! biggrin

wiggy001

7,347 posts

300 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
My daughter is year 3 and we did “money” last week. And it is exactly as you have said, show the different combinations of those coins.

Difficult enough for a 7 year old. Try it with a 7 year old with autism who is at least a year behind where she should be...

Heathwood

Original Poster:

3,032 posts

231 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
CharlesElliott said:
Maybe it is expecting just 1 (or 2) answers?
You’d have thought so, however follow on questions discuss methodology to ensure all variations are accounted for and that there are no repetitions.

CubanPete

3,803 posts

217 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
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Gary29

5,206 posts

128 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
Anywhere between 5p and £10

witko999

721 posts

237 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
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Surely the answer is between 5p and £10?

BlackTails

3,871 posts

84 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
Heathwood said:
CharlesElliott said:
Maybe it is expecting just 1 (or 2) answers?
You’d have thought so, however follow on questions discuss methodology to ensure all variations are accounted for and that there are no repetitions.
It sounds like a question on permutations and combinations, with the warm up being what are the values of the maxima and minima.

Heathwood

Original Poster:

3,032 posts

231 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
Not that straightforward I fear.

The follow on questions/comments are:

- how will you ensure you find all the variations?
- how will you ensure you don’t repeat any totals?
- perhaps start with just 2 coins first to develop your system

Hmm

JeffreyD

6,155 posts

69 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
CubanPete said:
The answer for an 8yo is 5p to £10




https://www.mathplanet.com/education/algebra-2/dis...
Surely that isn't 8 yr old level Maths?


Gary29

5,206 posts

128 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
JeffreyD said:
Surely that isn't 8 yr old level Maths?
I hope not!

Is this another case of not getting the full and exact original question correct?

JeffreyD

6,155 posts

69 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
Gary29 said:
I hope not!

Is this another case of not getting the full and exact original question correct?
Yes I'd say we need to see the full unedited question.

edit :- I'd say the answer is as above 5p to £10.
But if the question is "how much might he have" then £9 is a correct answer

BlackTails

3,871 posts

84 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
Heathwood said:
Not that straightforward I fear.

The follow on questions/comments are:

- how will you ensure you find all the variations?
- how will you ensure you don’t repeat any totals?
- perhaps start with just 2 coins first to develop your system

Hmm
The follow on questions look to me more about making the students think about methodology, rather than formulae or working out how many variations there are .

How will you find all the variations? Take the suggestion of starting with two coins in the pocket as the start point for the methodology. Say the first coin is a 1p. The second could be any of the 8 coins, so you have 8 possible 1p-based combinations (1+1, 1+2. 1+5, etc).

Now take the 2p as your first coin. You still have 8 possible combinations that are 2p-based, but you already have the 2+1 combo as 1+2 in the first stage above. So when you start with the 2p, the second coin could be any of seven of the remaining coin types: 2 to 200.

Now take the 5p as your first coin. Again, 8 possible 5p-based combinations, but you have 5+1 and 5+2 already ticked off at stages 1 and 2 above. So now the second coin can be any of the six remaining coin types.

At this point you can see a pattern emerging, and the trick is to formulate a rule that describes what's going on.

Then try again with a three coin pick.

It looks like this is intended to be a collaborative group activity, so not really ideal for remote home learning: https://nrich.maths.org/142/note

Dixy

3,644 posts

234 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
CubanPete said:
The answer for an 8yo is 5p to £10




https://www.mathplanet.com/education/algebra-2/dis...
Of course this ignores that £5 coins are legal tender
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_pounds_(British...

Mammasaid

5,557 posts

126 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
Of course the real answer is;

r!
----
r!(n-r)!

where r = number of distinct coins(1p, 2p, etc.) and n = number chosen (in this case 3)


Foliage

3,861 posts

151 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
Dixy said:
CubanPete said:
The answer for an 8yo is 5p to £10




https://www.mathplanet.com/education/algebra-2/dis...
Of course this ignores that £5 coins are legal tender
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_pounds_(British...
So are soveriegns but its face value is only £1, even though the true value is £300 odd quid.



Simpo Two

92,708 posts

294 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
Ah but real coins or virtual coins eg Bitcoin...? That opens up the possibilities...

Heathwood

Original Poster:

3,032 posts

231 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
quotequote all
BlackTails said:
The follow on questions look to me more about making the students think about methodology, rather than formulae or working out how many variations there are .

How will you find all the variations? Take the suggestion of starting with two coins in the pocket as the start point for the methodology. Say the first coin is a 1p. The second could be any of the 8 coins, so you have 8 possible 1p-based combinations (1+1, 1+2. 1+5, etc).

Now take the 2p as your first coin. You still have 8 possible combinations that are 2p-based, but you already have the 2+1 combo as 1+2 in the first stage above. So when you start with the 2p, the second coin could be any of seven of the remaining coin types: 2 to 200.

Now take the 5p as your first coin. Again, 8 possible 5p-based combinations, but you have 5+1 and 5+2 already ticked off at stages 1 and 2 above. So now the second coin can be any of the six remaining coin types.

At this point you can see a pattern emerging, and the trick is to formulate a rule that describes what's going on.

Then try again with a three coin pick.

It looks like this is intended to be a collaborative group activity, so not really ideal for remote home learning: https://nrich.maths.org/142/note
Thanks BlackTails, this is pretty much what we’ve done. Essentially, demonstrating a recognition of a pattern / methodology and acknowledging the extent to which this would continue.

I think the question will attract a very wide spread of responses to varying complexities. I suspect the teachers will just be interested to see what the kids do when given such a task.