Would you fight this Penalty Charge Notice?
Discussion
Mrs B was driving our old bus through Bavaria Road in north London last September. As a result of this we have been given a £130 PCN by Islington Borough for what she did at the end of that road, which was to go to the right of the 'keep left' bollard because she was worried about scraping the car on the width restrictors on the left.
Bavaria Rd is a one-way street. This is the only point at which Bavaria Road becomes two lanes. There is no additional signage further back down the road to say that the right lane is restricted to certain types of vehicle.
Here's a pic showing the road layout.
Just wondering what PH folks' view on this is. Obviously the keep left sign is the bit that we're being hauled up on but I'm not seeing why these restrictors suddenly appear at the very end of a one-way street and why it should be a £130 offence to choose the other lane if you're worried about damaging your car. From the head-on images they sent to corroborate the PCN I'm guessing that the camera is in the box mounted on the streetlight in front of William Hill's and is there for this sole purpose, given that there is no box junction or other reason to take pictures there.
Adding to the fun, we only received the PCN for £130 yesterday (26 Jan) because we moved house last year and the bus's V5 was until recently still registered to the old address. Although the PCN was presumably sent to us at our old address in September, the new occupants have only just forwarded it on to us now in late January.
Because we didn't respond to that first PCN (because we didn't have it), a second one for a new amount of £203 was sent out in December. That has today plopped onto our doormat, one day after the first one.
I'm expecting to get slaughtered in the usual PH fashion so am togging up with protective gear in readiness but I'll just say that we are not chancers or argumentative types and will I'm sure end up paying one of these PCNs, hopefully the first one. Just feel that something is a bit whiffy here.
Bavaria Rd is a one-way street. This is the only point at which Bavaria Road becomes two lanes. There is no additional signage further back down the road to say that the right lane is restricted to certain types of vehicle.
Here's a pic showing the road layout.
Just wondering what PH folks' view on this is. Obviously the keep left sign is the bit that we're being hauled up on but I'm not seeing why these restrictors suddenly appear at the very end of a one-way street and why it should be a £130 offence to choose the other lane if you're worried about damaging your car. From the head-on images they sent to corroborate the PCN I'm guessing that the camera is in the box mounted on the streetlight in front of William Hill's and is there for this sole purpose, given that there is no box junction or other reason to take pictures there.
Adding to the fun, we only received the PCN for £130 yesterday (26 Jan) because we moved house last year and the bus's V5 was until recently still registered to the old address. Although the PCN was presumably sent to us at our old address in September, the new occupants have only just forwarded it on to us now in late January.
Because we didn't respond to that first PCN (because we didn't have it), a second one for a new amount of £203 was sent out in December. That has today plopped onto our doormat, one day after the first one.
I'm expecting to get slaughtered in the usual PH fashion so am togging up with protective gear in readiness but I'll just say that we are not chancers or argumentative types and will I'm sure end up paying one of these PCNs, hopefully the first one. Just feel that something is a bit whiffy here.
Edited by Blackpuddin on Thursday 28th January 12:54
I can see that you feel it might be unecessary, but the signage was clear, including a camera sign, so I can't see on what basis you would contest it. It's a bit like saying that you know you broke the speed limit but you think the speed limit is unecessarily low.
On the address piece, that's also unfortunate, but you have saved yourself ( so far) a potential £1,000 fine from the DVLA for not informing them of your address change, so you could see that as a saving??
On the address piece, that's also unfortunate, but you have saved yourself ( so far) a potential £1,000 fine from the DVLA for not informing them of your address change, so you could see that as a saving??
CharlesElliott said:
I can see that you feel it might be unecessary, but the signage was clear, including a camera sign, so I can't see on what basis you would contest it. It's a bit like saying that you know you broke the speed limit but you think the speed limit is unecessarily low.
Just wondering what the rationale is for having these restrictors at the end of a one-way street. Doubtless there's a good reason. When someone points it out to me I'll hold my hands up and pay but I'd be interested to know the reasoning for it. Edited by Blackpuddin on Thursday 28th January 12:55
I'm curious, what is the road to the right of the island there for? Who can use it?
I can imagine the road to the left is a bit of a squeeze for some of the larger cars on the road and possibly not passable by lorries?
Have no comment on challenging the fine in full as I don't know the road.
I can imagine the road to the left is a bit of a squeeze for some of the larger cars on the road and possibly not passable by lorries?
Have no comment on challenging the fine in full as I don't know the road.
What is the alleged contravention on the PCN?
Presumably it's for a failure to adhere to the keep left blue sign. However, if every vehicle is required to keep left, what is the purpose of the right hand lane?
What vehicles are allowed to use the right hand lane, and how is that signposted?
In any case, I always challenge a PCN as a matter of principle, although I'm usually good at avoiding getting them in the first place.
Presumably it's for a failure to adhere to the keep left blue sign. However, if every vehicle is required to keep left, what is the purpose of the right hand lane?
What vehicles are allowed to use the right hand lane, and how is that signposted?
In any case, I always challenge a PCN as a matter of principle, although I'm usually good at avoiding getting them in the first place.
I think you need to suck this one up. The signage on the road is pretty clear. The 7ft width restriction is there to stop 7.5t+ trucks from using that road, and unless your "old bus" is wider than a Luton-bodied 3.5t truck (which I know for a fact can fit through 7ft width restrictions), there was no justification for going round the keep left sign.
Then there's the address change thing. If you argue that you never got the first PCN, because you'd moved house, you're effectively admitting to not changing the address on the car's V5 when you moved house, which could get you into even more trouble.
I'd be inclined to give them a ring and discuss both of the PCNs/fines you've been sent through, with a "how can we sort this out?" attitude, once you get put through to a real human being.
Just because I'm nosey, what sort of car is your "old bus"?
Then there's the address change thing. If you argue that you never got the first PCN, because you'd moved house, you're effectively admitting to not changing the address on the car's V5 when you moved house, which could get you into even more trouble.
I'd be inclined to give them a ring and discuss both of the PCNs/fines you've been sent through, with a "how can we sort this out?" attitude, once you get put through to a real human being.
Just because I'm nosey, what sort of car is your "old bus"?
QuattroDave said:
I'm curious, what is the road to the right of the island there for? Who can use it?
I can imagine the road to the left is a bit of a squeeze for some of the larger cars on the road and possibly not passable by lorries?
Personally I'd be tempted to get the original fine reinstated on the basis that you're responding in a timely manner (and you'd updated your address on your V5 promptly!)
Have no comment on challenging the fine in full as I don't know the road.
I'm curious too. Like I say there is no signage further back to say who that wider r/h lane is for. The bigger question is why introduce restrictors at all at the end of a one-way street. I can imagine the road to the left is a bit of a squeeze for some of the larger cars on the road and possibly not passable by lorries?
Personally I'd be tempted to get the original fine reinstated on the basis that you're responding in a timely manner (and you'd updated your address on your V5 promptly!)
Have no comment on challenging the fine in full as I don't know the road.
Your suggestion to get the original fine reinstated sounds sensible and the least fractious way forward.
Mandat said:
What is the alleged contravention on the PCN?
Presumably it's for a failure to adhere to the keep left blue sign. However, if every vehicle is required to keep left, what is the purpose of the right hand lane?
'Failing to comply with a sign indicating that vehicular traffic must pass to the specified side of the sign.'Presumably it's for a failure to adhere to the keep left blue sign. However, if every vehicle is required to keep left, what is the purpose of the right hand lane?
MorganP104 said:
I think you need to suck this one up. The signage on the road is pretty clear. The 7ft width restriction is there to stop 7.5t+ trucks from using that road, and unless your "old bus" is wider than a Luton-bodied 3.5t truck (which I know for a fact can fit through 7ft width restrictions), there was no justification for going round the keep left sign.
Then there's the address change thing. If you argue that you never got the first PCN, because you'd moved house, you're effectively admitting to not changing the address on the car's V5 when you moved house, which could get you into even more trouble.
I'd be inclined to give them a ring and discuss both of the PCNs/fines you've been sent through, with a "how can we sort this out?" attitude, once you get put through to a real human being.
Just because I'm nosey, what sort of car is your "old bus"?
Another sensible post, thanks, if this keeps up I'll be able to take the flak jacket off soon. Then there's the address change thing. If you argue that you never got the first PCN, because you'd moved house, you're effectively admitting to not changing the address on the car's V5 when you moved house, which could get you into even more trouble.
I'd be inclined to give them a ring and discuss both of the PCNs/fines you've been sent through, with a "how can we sort this out?" attitude, once you get put through to a real human being.
Just because I'm nosey, what sort of car is your "old bus"?
I know Mrs B is bang to rights on the strict legality of it (car is a big old Merc estate btw) and as I say I'm sure we'll end up paying something but I'll always wonder why the restrictions are there. In all honesty I'm now getting slightly more worried about the V5 issue!
ETA 7.5 trucks can use that side of the road, yes, but then they could use any part of the road leading up to it, I just don't see why restrictors are there. Probably being a bit thick.
Edited by Blackpuddin on Wednesday 27th January 16:43
Mandat said:
What is the alleged contravention on the PCN?
Presumably it's for a failure to adhere to the keep left blue sign. However, if every vehicle is required to keep left, what is the purpose of the right hand lane?
What vehicles are allowed to use the right hand lane, and how is that signposted?
In any case, I always challenge a PCN as a matter of principle, although I'm usually good at avoiding getting them in the first place.
Usually, it's emergency vehicles only (ambulances, fire engines, etc.)Presumably it's for a failure to adhere to the keep left blue sign. However, if every vehicle is required to keep left, what is the purpose of the right hand lane?
What vehicles are allowed to use the right hand lane, and how is that signposted?
In any case, I always challenge a PCN as a matter of principle, although I'm usually good at avoiding getting them in the first place.
Also usually, there's a sign up to that effect.
I don't think it affects the validity of the OP's PCN (that was for not keeping left, fair enough), but I would have expected to see a sign saying something like "EMERGENCY VEHICLES ONLY" for the right lane.
Curious, but not grounds for challenging the PCN, unfortunately. If the PCN had read "Using an emergency vehicle only lane", then I reckon there would be grounds for a appeal on the basis of lack of signage.
MorganP104 said:
Mandat said:
What is the alleged contravention on the PCN?
Presumably it's for a failure to adhere to the keep left blue sign. However, if every vehicle is required to keep left, what is the purpose of the right hand lane?
What vehicles are allowed to use the right hand lane, and how is that signposted?
In any case, I always challenge a PCN as a matter of principle, although I'm usually good at avoiding getting them in the first place.
Usually, it's emergency vehicles only (ambulances, fire engines, etc.)Presumably it's for a failure to adhere to the keep left blue sign. However, if every vehicle is required to keep left, what is the purpose of the right hand lane?
What vehicles are allowed to use the right hand lane, and how is that signposted?
In any case, I always challenge a PCN as a matter of principle, although I'm usually good at avoiding getting them in the first place.
Also usually, there's a sign up to that effect.
I don't think it affects the validity of the OP's PCN (that was for not keeping left, fair enough), but I would have expected to see a sign saying something like "EMERGENCY VEHICLES ONLY" for the right lane.
Curious, but not grounds for challenging the PCN, unfortunately. If the PCN had read "Using an emergency vehicle only lane", then I reckon there would be grounds for a appeal on the basis of lack of signage.
MorganP104 said:
Mandat said:
What is the alleged contravention on the PCN?
Presumably it's for a failure to adhere to the keep left blue sign. However, if every vehicle is required to keep left, what is the purpose of the right hand lane?
What vehicles are allowed to use the right hand lane, and how is that signposted?
In any case, I always challenge a PCN as a matter of principle, although I'm usually good at avoiding getting them in the first place.
Usually, it's emergency vehicles only (ambulances, fire engines, etc.)Presumably it's for a failure to adhere to the keep left blue sign. However, if every vehicle is required to keep left, what is the purpose of the right hand lane?
What vehicles are allowed to use the right hand lane, and how is that signposted?
In any case, I always challenge a PCN as a matter of principle, although I'm usually good at avoiding getting them in the first place.
Also usually, there's a sign up to that effect.
I don't think it affects the validity of the OP's PCN (that was for not keeping left, fair enough), but I would have expected to see a sign saying something like "EMERGENCY VEHICLES ONLY" for the right lane.
Curious, but not grounds for challenging the PCN, unfortunately. If the PCN had read "Using an emergency vehicle only lane", then I reckon there would be grounds for a appeal on the basis of lack of signage.
I would imagine there would be a rat run somewhere used by a heavy vehicle, most likely through a residential area or similar. The restriction prevents heavies from using the route but still keeps it open to emergency vehicles, waste etc.
Unless there is a technicality on the ticket code vs the TMO you are unlikely to get away with it.
Chalk this one up to experience.
Unless there is a technicality on the ticket code vs the TMO you are unlikely to get away with it.
Chalk this one up to experience.
Blackpuddin said:
MorganP104 said:
Mandat said:
What is the alleged contravention on the PCN?
Presumably it's for a failure to adhere to the keep left blue sign. However, if every vehicle is required to keep left, what is the purpose of the right hand lane?
What vehicles are allowed to use the right hand lane, and how is that signposted?
In any case, I always challenge a PCN as a matter of principle, although I'm usually good at avoiding getting them in the first place.
Usually, it's emergency vehicles only (ambulances, fire engines, etc.)Presumably it's for a failure to adhere to the keep left blue sign. However, if every vehicle is required to keep left, what is the purpose of the right hand lane?
What vehicles are allowed to use the right hand lane, and how is that signposted?
In any case, I always challenge a PCN as a matter of principle, although I'm usually good at avoiding getting them in the first place.
Also usually, there's a sign up to that effect.
I don't think it affects the validity of the OP's PCN (that was for not keeping left, fair enough), but I would have expected to see a sign saying something like "EMERGENCY VEHICLES ONLY" for the right lane.
Curious, but not grounds for challenging the PCN, unfortunately. If the PCN had read "Using an emergency vehicle only lane", then I reckon there would be grounds for a appeal on the basis of lack of signage.
The restrictions could be there to allow legitimate access to the road for larger vehicles from the other end, but just prevent them from using it as a cut through/rat run.
k me, what a terrible bit of road design.Smoggy XJR said:
QuattroDave said:
I'm curious, what is the road to the right of the island there for? Who can use it?
Ambulances and fire appliances that won't get through the width restriction?Presumably there's been issues with lorries using the road as a rat run so have brought in these measures to restrict the width whilst still allowing emergency vehicles through.
As the OP later said though, seems odd to have it at the end of the road if it's not also at the beginning of the road!
Blackpuddin said:
Yes, I only remembered to do the address change two weeks ago and that's my bad but it was a genuine mistake, one of the things that gets forgotten in a house move!
That's why Royal Mail offer a forwarding serviceLess than an hour before your post I'd put exactly this situation in the "You are probably a T*** if..." thread.
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