Employers attitude to girlfriends absence
Discussion
Hi all.
Wondering on your collective PH opinions on my girlfriends situation.
My girlfriend works in a nursery, has done for 4 years. She works hard, is respected and liked by the staff, has great reports and is good with the children. She is very rarely absent other than the very occasional sick day throughout the year, and is never late. A model employee if you will.
Around September time in 2020, we discovered she was pregnant, great news very happy. Unfortunately 10 weeks later she suffered a miscarriage. Very upsetting for us, particularly her, and due to the pain and trauma she was signed off work for 2 weeks by her line manager. This was recorded by said line manager along with the reasons and sent up to HR.
She went back to work afterwards and everything went back to normal. Last week (ish) I had a positive covid test, and so had to self isolate along with those that I live with, in this case my girlfriend and our 10 year old daughter, she told her work who cleared her off for 10 days. Once again, reasons recorded by line manager and sent to HR.
She went back to work this week, to be greeted with an email from HR that her absence is unacceptable, and that ANY further absence may lead to dismissal! The same email was sent to my girlfriends line manager, who is absolutely furious, as the email says that even though they understand the reasons, they have still decided to sent forms to my girlfriend to fill out, that she needs to sign, accepting responsibility, admitting her absence was unacceptable, and taking the necessary steps to ensure it doesnt happen again.
My girlfriend was understandably quite upset at this, and under recommendation from her line manager (who is decent) my girlfriend has responded to the email saying that she feels this is unfair and does not wish to sign these documents, we are awaiting a response.
Now thanks for reading, I tried to keep this concise. I hope I'm not alone in thinking her HR department are out of line somewhat, any opinions? Surely the covid absence should come under special paid leave or something, like it was in my company, and as for the miscarriage, surely that's compassionate?
Thanks for any input!
Wondering on your collective PH opinions on my girlfriends situation.
My girlfriend works in a nursery, has done for 4 years. She works hard, is respected and liked by the staff, has great reports and is good with the children. She is very rarely absent other than the very occasional sick day throughout the year, and is never late. A model employee if you will.
Around September time in 2020, we discovered she was pregnant, great news very happy. Unfortunately 10 weeks later she suffered a miscarriage. Very upsetting for us, particularly her, and due to the pain and trauma she was signed off work for 2 weeks by her line manager. This was recorded by said line manager along with the reasons and sent up to HR.
She went back to work afterwards and everything went back to normal. Last week (ish) I had a positive covid test, and so had to self isolate along with those that I live with, in this case my girlfriend and our 10 year old daughter, she told her work who cleared her off for 10 days. Once again, reasons recorded by line manager and sent to HR.
She went back to work this week, to be greeted with an email from HR that her absence is unacceptable, and that ANY further absence may lead to dismissal! The same email was sent to my girlfriends line manager, who is absolutely furious, as the email says that even though they understand the reasons, they have still decided to sent forms to my girlfriend to fill out, that she needs to sign, accepting responsibility, admitting her absence was unacceptable, and taking the necessary steps to ensure it doesnt happen again.
My girlfriend was understandably quite upset at this, and under recommendation from her line manager (who is decent) my girlfriend has responded to the email saying that she feels this is unfair and does not wish to sign these documents, we are awaiting a response.
Now thanks for reading, I tried to keep this concise. I hope I'm not alone in thinking her HR department are out of line somewhat, any opinions? Surely the covid absence should come under special paid leave or something, like it was in my company, and as for the miscarriage, surely that's compassionate?
Thanks for any input!
Disgusting behaviour by HR,
Did you get official notification of a positive test?
If so send them a copy along with this
What should an employer do if an employee shows symptoms of COVID-19?
You should help your employees self-isolate if they have coronavirus symptoms and are waiting for a test result, or if they are a member of the same household as someone who has symptoms or has tested positive for COVID-19.
You have a legal requirement to ensure your employees self-isolate if they:
● have tested positive for coronavirus
● have been in close recent contact with someone who has tested positive and received a notification to self-isolate from NHS Test and Trace
You should not share the identity of a worker who has tested positive with other workers.
Did you get official notification of a positive test?
If so send them a copy along with this
What should an employer do if an employee shows symptoms of COVID-19?
You should help your employees self-isolate if they have coronavirus symptoms and are waiting for a test result, or if they are a member of the same household as someone who has symptoms or has tested positive for COVID-19.
You have a legal requirement to ensure your employees self-isolate if they:
● have tested positive for coronavirus
● have been in close recent contact with someone who has tested positive and received a notification to self-isolate from NHS Test and Trace
You should not share the identity of a worker who has tested positive with other workers.
Our HR has a policy of " being invited in for an interview " if you have more than
4 instances of more than 3 days off in a year.
It discourages the serial skivers, malingerers and chancers, although in the OP's case the serious reasons for the absences
would be considered in a sympathetic manner.
4 instances of more than 3 days off in a year.
It discourages the serial skivers, malingerers and chancers, although in the OP's case the serious reasons for the absences
would be considered in a sympathetic manner.
Thanks for all the replies everyone, shows my concerns were somewhat justified.
Thanks also for the condolences, good news is that she is pregnant again at 14 weeks and all looks good.
Those mentioning the bradford score, this is exactly what they are basing this on, which is unfortunate. I could understand the position of the company if she was regularly absent or late, but shes not, and even after reviewing the reasons I'm surprised the HR manager sent this out. It's a relatively small company, probably only 50 employees over 4 or so nurseries. Is there no way they can disregard the bradford score in exceptional circumstances? Her work policy manual would suggest so.
As for proof, she promptly sent my positive test email, and the doctors note regarding the miscarriage into her manager, making sure to also send it to HR.
I'm sure this will all be sorted out, I was just very surprised that they even sent the email at all.
Again, thanks everyone. Appreciate the responses.
Thanks also for the condolences, good news is that she is pregnant again at 14 weeks and all looks good.
Those mentioning the bradford score, this is exactly what they are basing this on, which is unfortunate. I could understand the position of the company if she was regularly absent or late, but shes not, and even after reviewing the reasons I'm surprised the HR manager sent this out. It's a relatively small company, probably only 50 employees over 4 or so nurseries. Is there no way they can disregard the bradford score in exceptional circumstances? Her work policy manual would suggest so.
As for proof, she promptly sent my positive test email, and the doctors note regarding the miscarriage into her manager, making sure to also send it to HR.
I'm sure this will all be sorted out, I was just very surprised that they even sent the email at all.
Again, thanks everyone. Appreciate the responses.
Pebbles167 said:
... they have still decided to sent forms to my girlfriend to fill out, that she needs to sign, accepting responsibility, admitting her absence was unacceptable, and taking the necessary steps to ensure it doesnt happen again.
Hopefully a proper lawyer will be along soon, but I'd say definitely do not do that.Send a reply expressing disappointment at the request & attach evidence - nothing more.
It they come back again, I'd be inclined to point out that the cause of the miscarriage was pregnancy & ask them to clarify whether they are requesting that steps are being taken to avoid that ?
Terms like, you feel that you are being discriminated against for being female should have them running for the hills....
Rob_125 said:
This is typical of HR, 'following policy'. I had a friend with a brain tumour who had a similar experience. Basically give the letter the contempt it deserves. It seems she has her managers support, which is all that matters.
Whilst each circumstance is different, there is a reason there is policy. It needs to be followed and the right outcome will be reached in nearly 100% of cases. Having their manager's support is not all that matters, it's effectively meaningless. Treating the letter with contempt is not a professional attitude.
I would be extremely surprised if this isnt resolved very amicably, very quickly. But, sadly, these rules need to exist because of the pisstakers.
The absence policy states that in exceptional circumstances, time off will be given if needed and not penalised, both absences should probably fall under this bracket I think.
As for her response, it was polite and professional. Just stating that she would rather not sign anything until she has had a meeting with HR to discuss the reasons surrounding the absence.
As several of you have said, I'm sure that this will be sorted amicably. My girlfriend isn't one to make a fuss, but it did upset her and hurt her feelings that an accusatory email was sent out personally by the HR manager, despite said manager already being aware of the reasons.
I like to think that perhaps the email was sent by someone other than the HR manager who was tasked with sorting out absences that day or something, and that it's all a bit of a misunderstanding. I cant believe that anyone would send an email with such a firm and ominous tone if they had actually looked at the information sent up to HR from the line manager.
As for her response, it was polite and professional. Just stating that she would rather not sign anything until she has had a meeting with HR to discuss the reasons surrounding the absence.
As several of you have said, I'm sure that this will be sorted amicably. My girlfriend isn't one to make a fuss, but it did upset her and hurt her feelings that an accusatory email was sent out personally by the HR manager, despite said manager already being aware of the reasons.
I like to think that perhaps the email was sent by someone other than the HR manager who was tasked with sorting out absences that day or something, and that it's all a bit of a misunderstanding. I cant believe that anyone would send an email with such a firm and ominous tone if they had actually looked at the information sent up to HR from the line manager.
Pebbles167 said:
Those mentioning the bradford score, this is exactly what they are basing this on, which is unfortunate.
Once they follow something like that, they have to do it for everybody. Otherwise someone who gets legitimately fired will say they've been unfairly treated.Edited by Sheepshanks on Wednesday 10th February 22:49
if she is being being penalised for having an miscarriage, then surely the equality act, comes into play.
Pregnancy is protected after 22 weeks, but unfortutely not before, BUT according to .. (not sure on legality but HR probably don't as well)
https://maternityaction.org.uk/advice/miscarriage-...
''The employer must count any sick leave related to your pregnancy or miscarriage separately and must not use it against you, for example, for disciplinary or redundancy purposes.''
If it was me, i would right a letter to HR advising you(not you) feel discriminated under the equality act and this sickness should not be used against me in any disciplinary matters, ergo no meeting should take place.
Pregnancy is protected after 22 weeks, but unfortutely not before, BUT according to .. (not sure on legality but HR probably don't as well)
https://maternityaction.org.uk/advice/miscarriage-...
''The employer must count any sick leave related to your pregnancy or miscarriage separately and must not use it against you, for example, for disciplinary or redundancy purposes.''
If it was me, i would right a letter to HR advising you(not you) feel discriminated under the equality act and this sickness should not be used against me in any disciplinary matters, ergo no meeting should take place.
Sheepshanks said:
Pebbles167 said:
Those mentioning the bradford score, this is exactly what they are basing this on, which is unfortunate.
One they follow something like that, they have to do it for everybody. Otherwise someone who gets legitimately fired will say they've been unfairly treated.Sounds to me like there has been a misunderstanding here or something has been recorded incorrectly. HR will know the regulations around pregnancy and sick absence and how miscarriages are covered by this. If they have not managed that correctly then they are incompetent.
The strange part here is the Covid isolation. It’s not Possible for her to work from home so an employer should insist they either take unpaid leave or annual leave as first options. It’s not clear from the above which was the case here. Either way, neither of them should be treated as sick absence and therefore the trigger for this action should not have been met.
The strange part here is the Covid isolation. It’s not Possible for her to work from home so an employer should insist they either take unpaid leave or annual leave as first options. It’s not clear from the above which was the case here. Either way, neither of them should be treated as sick absence and therefore the trigger for this action should not have been met.
01WE01 said:
Sheepshanks said:
Pebbles167 said:
Those mentioning the bradford score, this is exactly what they are basing this on, which is unfortunate.
One they follow something like that, they have to do it for everybody. Otherwise someone who gets legitimately fired will say they've been unfairly treated.I was fortunate in that whilst I had to follow the Bradford score triggers, I had a reasonable amount of leniency on how I dealt with it.
Interestingly the last one I did was in Bradford and somehow as I was retiring I forgot to issue the letter or send a copy to HR.
01WE01 said:
The government says they must self-isolate; that's not the same as saying they must take the time off as sickness.
Though obviously in OPs GFs case it is.
There is clear government guidance on it which is why I have asked the question above. Isolating because a householder member is ill is not sick absence. Though obviously in OPs GFs case it is.
I don't think its a clear cut as that. I haven't come across anything that says an employer must not treat it as sick leave. Happy to be proved otherwise of course.
.gov.uk said:
Employees
If you are unable to do your job from home, you may ask your employer for annual leave to accommodate your period of self-isolation.
If your employer refuses an annual leave request, you may be able to agree a period of unpaid leave instead.
If you’re on sick leave or self-isolating because of coronavirus, you may want to speak to your employer about whether you are eligible for the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme (furlough). You may be eligible for Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) while you are on sick leave or self-isolating.
And
Employers
If it is not possible to arrange alternative work that can be completed from home, you should try to accommodate periods of self-isolation by granting annual leave, or unpaid leave if that is not possible.
If you are unable to do your job from home, you may ask your employer for annual leave to accommodate your period of self-isolation.
If your employer refuses an annual leave request, you may be able to agree a period of unpaid leave instead.
If you’re on sick leave or self-isolating because of coronavirus, you may want to speak to your employer about whether you are eligible for the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme (furlough). You may be eligible for Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) while you are on sick leave or self-isolating.
And
Employers
If it is not possible to arrange alternative work that can be completed from home, you should try to accommodate periods of self-isolation by granting annual leave, or unpaid leave if that is not possible.
I would ask them politely to reconsider taking into account S18(2)(b) of the Equality Act 2010 and suggesting their policy should be in line with the legislation. I would then note that the policy should also comply with Govt Guidance in relation to CV19. I would invite them to consider the latter as exceptional circumstances which justify the deviation from the sickness policy notwithstanding the first point. I would politely point out it is quite humiliating and offensive to suggest she is "at fault" or "responsible" for a miscarriage and I would invite them to reconsider their procedures when dealing with the same to prevent further issues arising.
Edited by Jasandjules on Thursday 11th February 10:18
01WE01 said:
I don't think its a clear cut as that. I haven't come across anything that says an employer must not treat it as sick leave. Happy to be proved otherwise of course.
It is deliberately vague and up to employers to handle it as they see fit. You're lucky if they've decided to treat isolation as paid sick leave, unlucky if it's anything else..gov.uk said:
Employees
If you are unable to do your job from home, you may ask your employer for annual leave to accommodate your period of self-isolation.
If your employer refuses an annual leave request, you may be able to agree a period of unpaid leave instead.
If you’re on sick leave or self-isolating because of coronavirus, you may want to speak to your employer about whether you are eligible for the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme (furlough). You may be eligible for Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) while you are on sick leave or self-isolating.
And
Employers
If it is not possible to arrange alternative work that can be completed from home, you should try to accommodate periods of self-isolation by granting annual leave, or unpaid leave if that is not possible.
If you are unable to do your job from home, you may ask your employer for annual leave to accommodate your period of self-isolation.
If your employer refuses an annual leave request, you may be able to agree a period of unpaid leave instead.
If you’re on sick leave or self-isolating because of coronavirus, you may want to speak to your employer about whether you are eligible for the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme (furlough). You may be eligible for Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) while you are on sick leave or self-isolating.
And
Employers
If it is not possible to arrange alternative work that can be completed from home, you should try to accommodate periods of self-isolation by granting annual leave, or unpaid leave if that is not possible.
OP - sounds like a cluster and there has already been good advice shared here. I'm HR and although we get trigger notifications we always review the absence records first to weed out any genuine, doctor-backed absences as they shouldn't be considered in the calculation. Sounds like this hasn't happened; could be for a myriad of reasons. I would open with writing to HR to explain, and if they don't budge then raise a grievance. No way can miscarriage and then COVID be considered as unacceptable absence.
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