IT question Level 2, level 3?
Discussion
They definitely said a level 2 system and level 3 systems, I work in manufacturing (but not in IT).
So I will just have to look stupid and ask someone who will forget about my stupidity if I leave some biscuits on a table.
As I am not sure what they mean. Does it make sense if SAP is included? I think they were taking about other systems, but that is also used here...
So I will just have to look stupid and ask someone who will forget about my stupidity if I leave some biscuits on a table.
As I am not sure what they mean. Does it make sense if SAP is included? I think they were taking about other systems, but that is also used here...
Matt Cup said:
I think this lot are a long way from Industry 4.0, they are more towards Industry 1970...I think it is the computer systems doing tracking of production, and in the information exchange, but they didn't say what the level 2 or level 3 system were called. Or I could have started to understand what each was doing.
Edited by PiesAreGreat on Wednesday 17th February 21:03
I wonder if Level 1 might be information concerned with the operation of a particular machine/department/function, from which data is abstracted or aggregated together with data from other departments to present information at site/office/factory level (Level 2), then Level 3 is subsidiary company, Level 4 is overall corporate. Or something like that.
Might be referring to the SAP data levels:
1. Client data
2. Plant data
3. Storage data
IiRC it’s very complex and I haven’t been involved in any SAP integration stuff for a long time. There are probably other people who can explain this better but each level has it’s own tables in the database.
1. Client data
2. Plant data
3. Storage data
IiRC it’s very complex and I haven’t been involved in any SAP integration stuff for a long time. There are probably other people who can explain this better but each level has it’s own tables in the database.
PiesAreGreat said:
Matt Cup said:
I think this lot are a long way from Industry 4.0, they are more towards Industry 1970...I think it is the computer systems doing tracking of production, and in the information exchange, but they didn't say what the level 2 or level 3 system were called. Or I could have started to understand what each was doing.
Edited by PiesAreGreat on Wednesday 17th February 21:03
plasticpig said:
Might be referring to the SAP data levels:
1. Client data
2. Plant data
3. Storage data
IiRC it’s very complex and I haven’t been involved in any SAP integration stuff for a long time. There are probably other people who can explain this better but each level has it’s own tables in the database.
I have barely touched SAP for a few years, but the above does sound believable.1. Client data
2. Plant data
3. Storage data
IiRC it’s very complex and I haven’t been involved in any SAP integration stuff for a long time. There are probably other people who can explain this better but each level has it’s own tables in the database.
I think I am going to have to bite the bullet and just ask around... Strategically leave some biscuits and get ask lots of people unconnected questions, then link it all together...
So what is the name of the level 2 system here? ask another concentrating on how many biscuits they can stuff in their face what the level 3 system is? then google the results... Man with a plan...
PiesAreGreat said:
I am in work and someone tells me how some manufacturing data is passed to the level 2 system, other data is passed to the level 3 system...
What on earth is a Level 2 and Level 3 system? what is the difference?
Is there a Level 0 and Level 1? What is Level 4?
Why not just ask the person you're talking to. Seriously, there are no stupid questions. I've been in IT >20 years and I still fail to understand what someone else is on about almost daily.What on earth is a Level 2 and Level 3 system? what is the difference?
Is there a Level 0 and Level 1? What is Level 4?
Make a point of asking for clarification for things, it helps cut down the bulls
t. The more you do it the more you realise you're actually helping out other people who are wondering exactly the same thing, but daren't say so. And more often than you'd think, the person you ask doesn't have a clue what they're talking about either. 
deggles said:
Why not just ask the person you're talking to. Seriously, there are no stupid questions. I've been in IT >20 years and I still fail to understand what someone else is on about almost daily.
Make a point of asking for clarification for things, it helps cut down the bullst. The more you do it the more you realise you're actually helping out other people who are wondering exactly the same thing, but daren't say so. And more often than you'd think, the person you ask doesn't have a clue what they're talking about either.
Firstly I agree there are no stupid questions, and for my team I agree that if they don't know I would rather they just asked me. thus removing the BS and getting more done. Make a point of asking for clarification for things, it helps cut down the bulls
t. The more you do it the more you realise you're actually helping out other people who are wondering exactly the same thing, but daren't say so. And more often than you'd think, the person you ask doesn't have a clue what they're talking about either. however, I know a lot of people who will try to make others look "less knowledgeable" and therefore think they look "smart", when in fact they are just being obstructive. On this project, I won't be doing the IT bit (so don't actually need to know), I am project managing, hence why I am reluctant to ask as I think the client might be trying to confuse... might be one of those projects...
The model you're looking for for the levels is ISA-95. The levels refer to the approximate timeframe in which things happen...
Level 0 - Sub Millisecond/Real-time - the actual actuators in the machines themselves
Level 1 - Millisecond/Second - typically the internal control systems of the machine and the internal control network
Level 2 - Seconds/Minutes - SCADA (System Control and Data Acquisition) or controlling many machines, for example an automated cell
Level 3 - Minutes/Hours/Shifts - Manufacturing Ops Management - Running the actual factory
Level 4 - Hours+ - Enterprise... where your ERP and PLM systems live... the rest of the company type domain.
ISA-95 somewhat prosaically was written in 1995. When a fast internet connection was a 64K ISDN line with the same kinda latency as a government announcement. Therefore ISA-95 itself suggested that Level 3 and below would be local hosted in the factory rather than the data centre. Of course quarter of a century on the lines are more blurred and the latency to hosting less of an issue as long as you consider your transmissions.
The biggest mistakes people make when passing data... not working out what's important or not and so asking for "everything" and "as often as possible"... HTH
Source - I've spent the last decade implementing a MOM solution into a global Aerospace & Defence business handling (pre COVID) over 2 million operations month. Now I'm the Engineering Enterprise Architect... working on the future approaches.
Chris
Level 0 - Sub Millisecond/Real-time - the actual actuators in the machines themselves
Level 1 - Millisecond/Second - typically the internal control systems of the machine and the internal control network
Level 2 - Seconds/Minutes - SCADA (System Control and Data Acquisition) or controlling many machines, for example an automated cell
Level 3 - Minutes/Hours/Shifts - Manufacturing Ops Management - Running the actual factory
Level 4 - Hours+ - Enterprise... where your ERP and PLM systems live... the rest of the company type domain.
ISA-95 somewhat prosaically was written in 1995. When a fast internet connection was a 64K ISDN line with the same kinda latency as a government announcement. Therefore ISA-95 itself suggested that Level 3 and below would be local hosted in the factory rather than the data centre. Of course quarter of a century on the lines are more blurred and the latency to hosting less of an issue as long as you consider your transmissions.
The biggest mistakes people make when passing data... not working out what's important or not and so asking for "everything" and "as often as possible"... HTH
Source - I've spent the last decade implementing a MOM solution into a global Aerospace & Defence business handling (pre COVID) over 2 million operations month. Now I'm the Engineering Enterprise Architect... working on the future approaches.
Chris
Similar to ISA-95, but could it also potentially be Purdue levels?
ETA: I see someone already mentioned Purdue. Oops
- Level 0 — The physical process — Defines the actual physical processes.
- Level 1 — Intelligent devices — Sensing and manipulating the physical processes. Process *sensors, analyzers, actuators and related instrumentation.
- Level 2 — Control systems — Supervising, monitoring and controlling the physical processes. Real-time controls and software; DCS, human-machine interface (HMI); supervisory and data acquisition (SCADA) software.
- Level 3 — Manufacturing operations systems — Managing production work flow to produce the desired products. Batch management; manufacturing execution/operations management systems (MES/MOMS); laboratory, maintenance and plant performance management systems; data historians and related middleware. Time frame: shifts, hours, minutes, seconds.
- Level 4 — Business logistics systems — Managing the business-related activities of the manufacturing operation. ERP is the primary system; establishes the basic plant production schedule, material use, shipping and inventory levels. Time frame: months, weeks, days, shifts.
ETA: I see someone already mentioned Purdue. Oops
Edited by MikeGTi on Thursday 18th February 12:27
Might also be talking about server tiers for data flow/server segregation, which will architectural layout, i.e.
Level 1 : Load balanced web servers in a DMZ
Level 2 : Local balanced web servers with a different web engine within the data centre network / external <-> internal integration devices
Level 3 : Application servers
Level 4 : Database servers in a more secured network zone
Above is just an example, most of what I've worked with have just been 3 tiered.
Level 1 : Load balanced web servers in a DMZ
Level 2 : Local balanced web servers with a different web engine within the data centre network / external <-> internal integration devices
Level 3 : Application servers
Level 4 : Database servers in a more secured network zone
Above is just an example, most of what I've worked with have just been 3 tiered.
jamies30 said:
Might be SAP, but my first thought was the Purdue reference model.
Level 4 would be Enterprise (where you send your emails from, work in Excel, surf the Internet, etc.), 3 is operations, 2 is control, 1 and 0 are smart and dumb devices respectively. All of these are -ish.
If its a manufacturing site, its probably thisLevel 4 would be Enterprise (where you send your emails from, work in Excel, surf the Internet, etc.), 3 is operations, 2 is control, 1 and 0 are smart and dumb devices respectively. All of these are -ish.
Level 4 is the office network
Level 3 in my projects is a process control network, firewalled off from Level 4 and hosting systems that operate controls and manage data from further down the chain, which I assume would be the Level 2, 1 & 0 as above
PiesAreGreat said:
Firstly I agree there are no stupid questions, and for my team I agree that if they don't know I would rather they just asked me. thus removing the BS and getting more done.
however, I know a lot of people who will try to make others look "less knowledgeable" and therefore think they look "smart", when in fact they are just being obstructive. On this project, I won't be doing the IT bit (so don't actually need to know), I am project managing, hence why I am reluctant to ask as I think the client might be trying to confuse... might be one of those projects...
This thread is very illuminatinghowever, I know a lot of people who will try to make others look "less knowledgeable" and therefore think they look "smart", when in fact they are just being obstructive. On this project, I won't be doing the IT bit (so don't actually need to know), I am project managing, hence why I am reluctant to ask as I think the client might be trying to confuse... might be one of those projects...
Awful but illuminating.
Gman20 said:
This thread is very illuminating
Awful but illuminating.
It also shows that, as is the norm in IT, without context (with which the OP would probably not have needed to ask the question) there are 1001 correct answers, though each only to a single technical area/solution - and then there's end user interpretations to add to the muddle.Awful but illuminating.
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