Why don't we run cars on methanol?
Discussion
I was talking to a mate of mine about Indy car racing (he went to Rockingham this year), and I mentioned that they ran on methanol. He said he wasn't sure whether indycars ran on methanol or not, but he said it would be a jolly good idea if ALL cars ran on it.
It's a much cleaner fuel than petrol, I can't remember the exact chemical equation (he's a chemist, I used to be!) but the main exhaust would be water vapour I believe; it has a really high octane rating so you can use lots of compression or high-boost forced induction (that's why dragsters run on it); you don't need to dig it out of the ground, it can be fermented from any sort of plant life you care to mention.
The only problem is that it contains less energy per litre than petrol, so we'd need larger petrol tanks and engines designed for the job with large volume fuel delivery systems, but that's about it!
Why not run on methanol and shut up all the weirdy-beardy eco-freako sandal-wearing lefty pinko communist Gr$$npiece scum? Plus, have you heard how fantastic methanol dragsters sound?
I can't remember enough chemistry to figure out if this would work, but it seems pretty sensible to me . . .
It's a much cleaner fuel than petrol, I can't remember the exact chemical equation (he's a chemist, I used to be!) but the main exhaust would be water vapour I believe; it has a really high octane rating so you can use lots of compression or high-boost forced induction (that's why dragsters run on it); you don't need to dig it out of the ground, it can be fermented from any sort of plant life you care to mention.
The only problem is that it contains less energy per litre than petrol, so we'd need larger petrol tanks and engines designed for the job with large volume fuel delivery systems, but that's about it!
Why not run on methanol and shut up all the weirdy-beardy eco-freako sandal-wearing lefty pinko communist Gr$$npiece scum? Plus, have you heard how fantastic methanol dragsters sound?
I can't remember enough chemistry to figure out if this would work, but it seems pretty sensible to me . . .
I think that methanol is normally produced from natural gas. Ethanol, on the other hand, is commonly produced from sugar-cane & some countries already have a limited infrastructure to support ethanol fueled cars (Brazil springs to mind)
As engine fuels, ethanol and methanol have similar chemical and physical characteristics.
As engine fuels, ethanol and methanol have similar chemical and physical characteristics.
Seems some smarts in Wales have devices a methanol based solution to the world's problem of used oil from fish and chip shops. They're running their cars on the mixture!
www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,31500-12139669,00.html
What next?
Hutch
>> Edited by Hut49 on Wednesday 9th October 16:47
www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,31500-12139669,00.html
What next?
Hutch
>> Edited by Hut49 on Wednesday 9th October 16:47
Once sprinted a Cooper S on Methanol.
Had to lag the bugger to stop the carb icing up, had to be careful with fuel lines, connectors etc as they disolved.
Had to make up a special needle for the SU as the main jet needed to be almost an eigth of an inch if memory serves.
Went very well but unburnt fuel dropping into oil was a problem, could have used Castrol R but the polymer chain was not suited to gears in the sump.
Had we progressed we would have needed a larger fuel tank.
Thank goodness that 'speed' events allow such alternative fuels.
Had to lag the bugger to stop the carb icing up, had to be careful with fuel lines, connectors etc as they disolved.
Had to make up a special needle for the SU as the main jet needed to be almost an eigth of an inch if memory serves.
Went very well but unburnt fuel dropping into oil was a problem, could have used Castrol R but the polymer chain was not suited to gears in the sump.
Had we progressed we would have needed a larger fuel tank.
Thank goodness that 'speed' events allow such alternative fuels.
I help wrench an Altered dragster, which we run in Super Pro ET. This car runs on Methanol.
As Gnomesmith said problems can arise with the injectors icing up on idle . Methanol is also extremely corrosive, meaning pumps, pipes and injectors etc, have to be cleared of all traces of fuel and squirted with oil after each race meeting!
As Gnomesmith said problems can arise with the injectors icing up on idle . Methanol is also extremely corrosive, meaning pumps, pipes and injectors etc, have to be cleared of all traces of fuel and squirted with oil after each race meeting!
ok 
time
Methanol can also be produced from coal gas (also used to be kowen as town gas)
It does have its problems as have been pointed out like carb icing due to methanol having a high latent heat of evaporation meaning it draws huge amount of heat out of the surrounding air/carb as it vaporises when it comes out the injectors/carb needles. A good example of this is to put a little drop on your hand then gently blow over it. Your hand will feel bloody cold.
Also the rubbers and plastics developed for petrol use are unsuitable for use with methanol. Different tanks, fuel lines and injectors need to be used with special rubbers. Maybe with the suitable materials long term corrosion wouldn't be a problem.
There is however no reason why a car maker couldn't solve these problems for a production car. Converting your own car may however be so costly that it wouldn't be worth your while.
Alcohol (ethanol) is much the same if you simply try and reprogram your fuel injectors to take it then fill your tank up with ethanol you will find over a period of time things like fuel hoses and injectors will die. Two Americans did this to a Ford blandmobile in the states and found this out. I can't remember the webshite address, sorry.
I would love a car with a piston engine that burnt an alternative fuel. Partly to give the fingers to the vegtablists (I love that term
) and partly to try and avoid paying 500% fuel tax
anyhoo seem to have rambled on a bit. If anyone discovers how to run your car on piss or water be sure to let me know
Andy
time Methanol can also be produced from coal gas (also used to be kowen as town gas)
It does have its problems as have been pointed out like carb icing due to methanol having a high latent heat of evaporation meaning it draws huge amount of heat out of the surrounding air/carb as it vaporises when it comes out the injectors/carb needles. A good example of this is to put a little drop on your hand then gently blow over it. Your hand will feel bloody cold.
Also the rubbers and plastics developed for petrol use are unsuitable for use with methanol. Different tanks, fuel lines and injectors need to be used with special rubbers. Maybe with the suitable materials long term corrosion wouldn't be a problem.
There is however no reason why a car maker couldn't solve these problems for a production car. Converting your own car may however be so costly that it wouldn't be worth your while.
Alcohol (ethanol) is much the same if you simply try and reprogram your fuel injectors to take it then fill your tank up with ethanol you will find over a period of time things like fuel hoses and injectors will die. Two Americans did this to a Ford blandmobile in the states and found this out. I can't remember the webshite address, sorry.
I would love a car with a piston engine that burnt an alternative fuel. Partly to give the fingers to the vegtablists (I love that term
) and partly to try and avoid paying 500% fuel tax anyhoo seem to have rambled on a bit. If anyone discovers how to run your car on piss or water be sure to let me know
Andy
also forgot to mention that I fly model airplanes and their engines (little single cyclinder air cooled two strokes) run on a mix of 40% oil and 60% methanol.
I buy it from the model shop for about 10 quid a gallon (about 2.20 a litre)
I dare say that includes the usual daft aeromodel shop 500% markup
Andy
I buy it from the model shop for about 10 quid a gallon (about 2.20 a litre)
I dare say that includes the usual daft aeromodel shop 500% markup
Andy
Quote:
some countries already have a limited infrastructure to support ethanol fueled cars (Brazil springs to mind)
Brazil tend to use E22 as their main fuel. This is 22% Ethanol and the balance is unleaded petrol. Requires bigger injectors and a re-calibration with revised fuel system components where necessary for corrosion resistance.
some countries already have a limited infrastructure to support ethanol fueled cars (Brazil springs to mind)
Brazil tend to use E22 as their main fuel. This is 22% Ethanol and the balance is unleaded petrol. Requires bigger injectors and a re-calibration with revised fuel system components where necessary for corrosion resistance.
quote:
I help wrench an Altered dragster, which we run in Super Pro ET. This car runs on Methanol.
As Gnomesmith said problems can arise with the injectors icing up on idle . Methanol is also extremely corrosive, meaning pumps, pipes and injectors etc, have to be cleared of all traces of fuel and squirted with oil after each race meeting!
Is methanol the fuel that burns cold so when the engine is running it is cold to the touch?
In a Top Methanol dragster, when at idle with the throttle butterflies closed and the supercharger sucking air, it creates a massive pressure drop, which in turn reduces temperature (sometimes down to -10 deg)
Teams spray De-icer to make sure air can pass the butterfly gaps and keep them from freezing solid!
Teams spray De-icer to make sure air can pass the butterfly gaps and keep them from freezing solid!
Is the level of duty you pay on drinks in the pub different from that on petrol? Cos ethanol in your tank would mean you're never that far from a drink. Even if you put a dye in it, it would be easy enough to distill out. So there are probably revenue & social reasons why we don't run on ethanol. Methanol is wood alcohol IIRC and will make you blind if you drink it. Both are volatile and this is presumably why they get blended with oils (low volatility) for use in conventional engines.
Given the evidence of recent prosecutions, it wouldn't sve you any tax.
Some people have just been "done" for running cooking oil in their diesel, and apparently you have to register with HMC+E to tell them. You can't start using "alternative" fuels without registering to pay the [punitive] tax you'd otherwise be paying on the potentially environment-damaging mainstream fuels. Which seems a bit mad, to me. Oh, and there were several H+S issues to consider, too.
There's obviously not much incentive from the gov to use "cleaner" fuels, unless you fancy LPG. They're too interested in the tax they get from "saving the planet" to actually "save it". Same goes with all this tobacco advertising banning palaver, probably.
Back to the point: Obviously, they have to find you, though. Maybe it was the bin-fulls of "crisp-and-dry" and a tip-off from the local refuse collectors?
Some people have just been "done" for running cooking oil in their diesel, and apparently you have to register with HMC+E to tell them. You can't start using "alternative" fuels without registering to pay the [punitive] tax you'd otherwise be paying on the potentially environment-damaging mainstream fuels. Which seems a bit mad, to me. Oh, and there were several H+S issues to consider, too.
There's obviously not much incentive from the gov to use "cleaner" fuels, unless you fancy LPG. They're too interested in the tax they get from "saving the planet" to actually "save it". Same goes with all this tobacco advertising banning palaver, probably.
Back to the point: Obviously, they have to find you, though. Maybe it was the bin-fulls of "crisp-and-dry" and a tip-off from the local refuse collectors?
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