Astons and new petrol

[Simpo Two]

A friend has just sent me an e-mail about E5 and E10 petrol which may affect you.

From https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e10-petrol-explained

'During summer 2021, the standard (or ‘Premium’) petrol grade in the UK will become E10.
E10 petrol contains up to 10% renewable ethanol, which is added to reduce CO2 emissions and help tackle climate change.
E10 petrol is compatible with almost all (95%) petrol-powered vehicles on the road today, including all cars built since 2011.'

So I looked up Aston Martin and it said:

'The following models are suitable for use with E10 petrol.
Virage: models from 2010
Cygnet
Rapide
V12 Vantage
DBS
DB9
V8 Vantage (S)
Vanquish (S)
The models below are not suitable for E10 and should continue to use E5 petrol.
Aston Martin V8: models before 2000
DB7 V12
DB7 I6
V8 Vantage Le Mans
V8 Virage
Lagonda
DBS V8
If in doubt, consult your dealer, the manual or the inside of the filler flap.'

E5 is the new name for super unleaded, it would seem.

If you already knew all about this just ignore it

[JonnyCJ]

Esso Synergy is apparently the one to get according to Mike at BR. Zero ethanol from memory, although it says E5 on the tin

[moveover]

"renewable ethanol"

That's a joke for a start. When Bolsonaro is handing out licences to slash and burn parcels of rainforest to plant so-called environmental crops to produce this 'renewable ethanol'

[Simpo Two]

moveover said:

"renewable ethanol"

That's a joke for a start. When Bolsonaro is handing out licences to slash and burn parcels of rainforest to plant so-called environmental crops to produce this 'renewable ethanol'

Quite. And I think chunks of Malaysia are getting devastated to, er, save the planet. But that's all brushed under the carpet by the new religion.

[Jon39]

JonnyCJ said:

Esso Synergy is apparently the one to get according to Mike at BR. Zero ethanol from memory, although it says E5 on the tin

Correct, but not in every area of the UK.
Think shared delivery is the reason.

If it is not clarified on the ESSO website, their enquiries people will tell you.

[JonnyCJ]

Jon39 said:

Correct, but not in every area of the UK.
Think shared delivery is the reason.

If it is not clarified on the ESSO website, their enquiries people will tell you.

This is worth a read - wonder if NW England includes Cheshire?
https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/petrol

[AstonV]

In California we have had 10% ethanol for over 10 years now. I will not harm your engine. You may notice less fuel economy. I would use fuel stabilizer for vehicles not driven for months on end.

[David W.]

moveover said:

"renewable ethanol"

That's a joke for a start. When Bolsonaro is handing out licences to slash and burn parcels of rainforest to plant so-called environmental crops to produce this 'renewable ethanol'

Ethanol is refined from wheat in the uk with the meal bi-product going into animal feed.

[AstonV]

David W. said:

Ethanol is refined from wheat in the uk with the meal bi-product going into animal feed.

Poor animals, like eating sawdust. Same nutritional value in it.

[V8V Pete]

AstonV said:

David W. said:

Ethanol is refined from wheat in the uk with the meal bi-product going into animal feed.

Poor animals, like eating sawdust. Same nutritional value in it.

Better than feeding them sheeps' brains and spinal cords ........

[AstonV]

V8V Pete said:

AstonV said:

David W. said:

Ethanol is refined from wheat in the uk with the meal bi-product going into animal feed.

Poor animals, like eating sawdust. Same nutritional value in it.

Better than feeding them sheeps' brains and spinal cords ........

Lets hope that's not done anymore. That is how mad cow disease originated in the U.K.

[BiggaJ]

AstonV said:

In California we have had 10% ethanol for over 10 years now. I will not harm your engine. You may notice less fuel economy. I would use fuel stabilizer for vehicles not driven for months on end.

I would be interested in some studies of this that of course haven't been funded by the bio fuels people. Do you have any independent studies at all as I think the jury is out on whether they do or dont have long term effects on engines.

My colleague had a news letter through the other day relating to the E10 markings and he drives a classic Bentley. I think their take on it was to try to use E5 or go the Esso route which has to classify E5 on the pump but doesn't have ethanol in it apart from a few regions in the UK.

As I run a business in the oil industry (not car fuels) I wonder if left over a winter period the ethanol separates out of the petrol. I'm sure it was BR that did a 'winter proofing your car' video where the subject of fuel was mentioned ... either leave it full in which case use Esso or run it down to a minimum over the winter period.

[Simpo Two]

I hear that E10 gives about 1% less economy. Does that mean it's a lower octane rating? (especially as older cars can't use it?)

[Jon39]

BiggaJ said:

I would be interested in some studies of this that of course haven't been funded by the bio fuels people. Do you have any independent studies at all as I think the jury is out on whether they do or don't have long term effects on engines.

I don't think ethanol causes damage to engines. It is some rubber and other material parts which are adversely affected on old cars.
Fuel pipes, carburettor parts etc. I have seen some mention about fuel tanks, but not certain what happens there.

The last change to cause engine damage, was leaded to unleaded petrol. Valve seats had to be changed on older cars, to avoid damage.

[BiggaJ]

Jon39 said:

I don't think ethanol causes damage to engines. It is some rubber and other material parts which are adversely affected on old cars.
Fuel pipes, carburettor parts etc. I have seen some mention about fuel tanks, but not certain what happens there.

The last change to cause engine damage, was leaded to unleaded petrol. Valve seats had to be changed on older cars, to avoid damage.

Yeah I'm personally not sure it does either but I wonder longer term if it gums things up.

[LTP]

Simpo Two said:

I hear that E10 gives about 1% less economy. Does that mean it's a lower octane rating? (especially as older cars can't use it?)

Ethanol is less energy dense, so you use more for the same output.

Octane rating is as per declared value on the pump - 95 RON for most "cooking" fuels, 99 RON for Shell V-power (which is currently the fuel of choice for my V8V as it has knock sensors and I believe it will take advantage of the extra octane rating by spark advance and consequently more power), but I believe as it's E5 it has 5% ethanol; Esso Synergy Supreme+ is also 99 Octane but contains no ethanol so has slightly more energy per litre - however it's more expensive than Shell where I am and the nearest fuel station is further away. I might be looking at Esso, though. Interestingly, base Esso petrol appears to be 97 RON vs 95 RON for most others

As I understand it, older cars can't use ethanol-containing fuels because they can affect and degrade some of the rubbers and plastics used in the fuel systems. It doesn't affect the metal bits. Most modern cars are E5 and E10 compatible - it will say in the handbook and maybe on the filler label.

[Cold]

What changes were made in 2010 to Vantage construction that means it's possible to use the new stuff, whereas a car a few years older is restricted?

[moveover]

V8V Pete said:

AstonV said:

David W. said:

Ethanol is refined from wheat in the uk with the meal bi-product going into animal feed.

Poor animals, like eating sawdust. Same nutritional value in it.

Better than feeding them sheeps' brains and spinal cords ........

With reference to the other thread on our reservations about MB engines, if Aston Martin made an engine that ran on sheeps’ brains and spinal cords I would be first in the queue. Imagine the sound ... bahhh!

[LTP]

Cold said:

What changes were made in 2010 to Vantage construction that means it's possible to use the new stuff, whereas a car a few years older is restricted?

Not sure I follow you. The reference was to Virage after 2010, and I assume if the list is correct then AML would have introduced changes to materials in the fuel systems when they launched the new model Virage in 2011 to make it compatible with ethanol

[Speedraser]

LTP said:

Cold said:

What changes were made in 2010 to Vantage construction that means it's possible to use the new stuff, whereas a car a few years older is restricted?

Not sure I follow you. The reference was to Virage after 2010, and I assume if the list is correct then AML would have introduced changes to materials in the fuel systems when they launched the new model Virage in 2011 to make it compatible with ethanol

... As opposed to the '90s Newport Pagnell Virage.