Cat N/Cat S etc Information/Advice Thread
Discussion
This isn’t a question, more of an information/advice post really.
I’ve bought accident damaged cars for years now for myself. I don’t exclusively buy accident damaged cars. I will buy whatever I think represents the best deal and suitability for myself. I own a bodyshop (more restoration based than insurance-type work, but we get involved in all sorts really).
I have bought the odd already repaired vehicle and there’s no issue in doing so as long as you’re thorough in your checks.
My main reason for posting this and to dispel a few myths is due to confusion over the new categories and classifications of insurance write-offs, of which there are four. The first two are the same as they have always been:
• Category A – The vehicle must be destroyed as it stands.
• Category B – The vehicle can be dismantled for parts to be sold, but the remains of the vehicle must be destroyed and not returned to the road.
The other two categories cover all vehicles that can be repaired and returned to the road. The old classifications were:
• Category C – Repairs are estimated to exceed 100% of the value of the vehicle. The V5 is destroyed by the insurance company and needs to be re-applied for. The car will require a new MOT and prior to 2012, a VIC check must be completed. This does NOT include inspecting the vehicle or checking any repairs that have been completed. It is a paperwork exercise only to ensure that the vehicles identity checks out. The V5 should state that the car has been accident damaged and repaired, although this is not always the case. A HPI check or similar will always reveal that the vehicle is recorded.
• Category D – Repairs are estimated to exceed 50% of the value of the vehicle. The V5 remains in tact. There is no note added to the V5. The car can been driven away as is. The MOT remains valid, there is no VIC check. A HPI report would show the status though.
Repairs totalling 50%+ or 100%+ of the vehicle’s value can sound a little scary, particularly on more expensive vehicles. That is until you realise how insurance companies come to their costs. Now, every insurance company works slightly differently. As said, as a bodyshop owner I have been involved in many insurance jobs over the years. I’ve never been an “actual” insurance bodyshop, more restoration and specialist stuff, but as customers can insist on where their vehicle is repaired, we’ve had a fair amount come through that way over the years. Virtually all insurance companies will want costs based upon changing all damaged parts, even if they are barely damaged and easily repaired. These parts prices will be based upon brand new, genuine parts wherever possible. That can easily turn a £1000 job into a £5000 job on its own.
Next up, many insurance companies will factor in the costs of storage for the vehicle between repairs, and the cost of a hire car for the duration that the vehicle is off the road. This is when the costs really start to spiral.
Different insurance companies also have different thresholds at which they will write a vehicle off. I don’t understand all the ins and outs of this one, but after providing an estimate once I was advised by the insurance company that the quoted figure would just about write the car off, which the customer wanted to avoid. To get round this they advised me to alter my estimate so it had less labour costs and more material costs. The total estimate was exactly the same figure, but doing it that way somehow avoided it being written off.
Additionally, in many instances, due to increases in storage costs, admin costs etc, if the vehicle owner making a claim decides they would prefer to be paid out than have their vehicle repaired, the vehicle which wouldn’t have been written off, now will get written off.
There is also the modern phenomenon of the insurance company which will only deal with a bodyshop on a “fixed price” deal. The best example I can give you is a bodyshop I know which only undertakes insurance work has a deal with 3 different insurance companies who all work on this basis and all have the same “fixed price” of £1100. In other words, they have a car come in that is completely battered both sides. Every panel needs major attention and virtually a full repaint. That will be £1100. You have another car come in the same time with a scuff on the bumper. That will be £1100. The hope being that the jobs will even themselves out, but said bodyshop is hardly going to swap very badly damaged panels for good quality new ones if they can get away with repairing them for that money…..
An example of a Cat D car I bought back in 2013 was this MINI Cooper. Spot the damage…..
A pretty insignificant dent on the bonnet, which was easily pulled out and repaired with a light skim of filler. Written off based on the cost of a new bonnet from MINI, paint, materials, labour and then probably storage and hire car costs. Surely still would have been repaired and not recorded if the previous owner decided he wanted to have the car repaired and keep it rather than take the payout…..
The brings me onto the new classifications:
• Category S – S stands for “Structural Damage”. Exactly as it says, this should be for vehicles with damage to the structure, rather than just cosmetic/outer panel damage. No VIC check is required any more. No new MOT required, but the V5 is destroyed to be reapplied for. You can tax the vehicle at the post office at the same time as sending off the application as long as the MOT is still in date. Again, the new V5 should state that it has been damaged and repaired, but this is not always the case. HPI check will always show it.
• Category N – N stands for “Non-Structural Damage”. Again, very self-explanatory. Any Cat N car should have superficial/cosmetic and maybe very minor damage to mechanical items. No new MOT required, no checks, V5 remains the same. Again, HPI check will always show status.
On paper, this system is a lot better, but in reality, very little has changed. I am always seeing Cat S cars with no structural damage and Cat N cars with structural damage. The vehicles are simply not inspected thoroughly enough (it’s never going to be possible to without fully stripping them). So, in reality, it is still done at least partially using the value-based system.
The main thing that spurred me on to write this post is that I have just bought a new vehicle for myself, which is recorded as Cat S. In other words, this vehicle should have sustained structural damage and/or damage that would cost more than 100% of the vehicle’s pre-damage value, which in this case was listed at £9000.
Here is the vehicle in question:
It is a 2006 Nissan Elgrand Rider S Autech. A nice spec, low mileage example, which pre-damage would have been absolutely immaculate. Now, I bought this online from Copart up in York and had it delivered down to me. I bought it completely blind and had a few concerns that there would be some hidden suspension, sill damage being classified Cat S.
I had it delivered to my work on Friday night, so didn’t see it until Saturday Morning. This is how it has played out since then:
Saturday morning, it went upon the ramp and had a thorough inspection. The verdict was that there was absolutely nothing wrong with it aside from the outer panel damage.
Next step, take it for a drive. Where I work, we are on an estate with a couple of miles of private roads and it’s virtually empty all weekend, so good chance to test it. It drives perfectly. Tracking is 95% perfect, so get it on the Hunter Hawkeye alignment system to get it to 100%. Happy with how it drives, so a quick trip to the post office with a V62 form and the new V5 is applied for and it’s taxed for 12 months. The only thing I’ve had to do in order to tax it is pay the £25 fee for a new V5 so they can process it there and then. It should be free for a new V5 for a Cat S, but that would take longer. The DVLA will send me a cheque to reimburse this fee when the new V5 arrives.
A full list of parts required for repair is made:
• NSF Wing
• NSF Door
• NS Sliding Door
• NS Rider Sideskirt
• Ideally a NSF alloy wheel as there is a chunk out of the old one where it has been scraped
30 seconds on eBay brings up someone who has a wing and both doors in good shape (wrong colour, so need painting, which I’d do anyway). So I order those and ask for a delivery address as they’re within half an hour of me. A couple of hours later the guy delivered them to me FOC. Result!
I then find an Elgrand Specialist up in Hull who has the correct Rider Sideskirt and wheel. Yesterday, I rang him up to arrange payment. The parts arrived today. The other panels needed very little repair and prep, so they were completely yesterday and the vehicle is being panelled up today. The whole repair will be completed by tomorrow at the latest. All parts and materials came in at under £400 and the vehicle is immaculate once again, and even if you can tell it’s been painted, there’s no way of knowing that the damaged, bolt-on panels had been replaced. Structural damage? £9000+ worth of repairs? Yeah right!
There is certainly no structural damage there and clearly wasn’t even to a casual observer doing their checks, so I can only assume they’ve gone on the old value-based system and just ran scared of it being a JDM-only import/specialist vehicle
I always keep a very comprehensive photographic and video record of any vehicle I repair for when it comes to be resold and as I typically only have good spec and immaculate examples that stand out from almost all others for sale, the difference I tend to get compared to a non-recorded example has always been very minimal.
There are far, far more extensively damaged and repaired vehicles on the road that aren’t recorded compared to the majority of Cat N’s and even Cat S’s. At least when you have a marker on the vehicle it makes you extra vigilant, knowing that there has been a repair.
This is just intended to help people who have asked questions about recorded vehicles and what it all means and also to give two examples of vehicles that in reality it is ridiculous that they have been “written off” and have proved to be bargains for me.
I’ve bought accident damaged cars for years now for myself. I don’t exclusively buy accident damaged cars. I will buy whatever I think represents the best deal and suitability for myself. I own a bodyshop (more restoration based than insurance-type work, but we get involved in all sorts really).
I have bought the odd already repaired vehicle and there’s no issue in doing so as long as you’re thorough in your checks.
My main reason for posting this and to dispel a few myths is due to confusion over the new categories and classifications of insurance write-offs, of which there are four. The first two are the same as they have always been:
• Category A – The vehicle must be destroyed as it stands.
• Category B – The vehicle can be dismantled for parts to be sold, but the remains of the vehicle must be destroyed and not returned to the road.
The other two categories cover all vehicles that can be repaired and returned to the road. The old classifications were:
• Category C – Repairs are estimated to exceed 100% of the value of the vehicle. The V5 is destroyed by the insurance company and needs to be re-applied for. The car will require a new MOT and prior to 2012, a VIC check must be completed. This does NOT include inspecting the vehicle or checking any repairs that have been completed. It is a paperwork exercise only to ensure that the vehicles identity checks out. The V5 should state that the car has been accident damaged and repaired, although this is not always the case. A HPI check or similar will always reveal that the vehicle is recorded.
• Category D – Repairs are estimated to exceed 50% of the value of the vehicle. The V5 remains in tact. There is no note added to the V5. The car can been driven away as is. The MOT remains valid, there is no VIC check. A HPI report would show the status though.
Repairs totalling 50%+ or 100%+ of the vehicle’s value can sound a little scary, particularly on more expensive vehicles. That is until you realise how insurance companies come to their costs. Now, every insurance company works slightly differently. As said, as a bodyshop owner I have been involved in many insurance jobs over the years. I’ve never been an “actual” insurance bodyshop, more restoration and specialist stuff, but as customers can insist on where their vehicle is repaired, we’ve had a fair amount come through that way over the years. Virtually all insurance companies will want costs based upon changing all damaged parts, even if they are barely damaged and easily repaired. These parts prices will be based upon brand new, genuine parts wherever possible. That can easily turn a £1000 job into a £5000 job on its own.
Next up, many insurance companies will factor in the costs of storage for the vehicle between repairs, and the cost of a hire car for the duration that the vehicle is off the road. This is when the costs really start to spiral.
Different insurance companies also have different thresholds at which they will write a vehicle off. I don’t understand all the ins and outs of this one, but after providing an estimate once I was advised by the insurance company that the quoted figure would just about write the car off, which the customer wanted to avoid. To get round this they advised me to alter my estimate so it had less labour costs and more material costs. The total estimate was exactly the same figure, but doing it that way somehow avoided it being written off.
Additionally, in many instances, due to increases in storage costs, admin costs etc, if the vehicle owner making a claim decides they would prefer to be paid out than have their vehicle repaired, the vehicle which wouldn’t have been written off, now will get written off.
There is also the modern phenomenon of the insurance company which will only deal with a bodyshop on a “fixed price” deal. The best example I can give you is a bodyshop I know which only undertakes insurance work has a deal with 3 different insurance companies who all work on this basis and all have the same “fixed price” of £1100. In other words, they have a car come in that is completely battered both sides. Every panel needs major attention and virtually a full repaint. That will be £1100. You have another car come in the same time with a scuff on the bumper. That will be £1100. The hope being that the jobs will even themselves out, but said bodyshop is hardly going to swap very badly damaged panels for good quality new ones if they can get away with repairing them for that money…..
An example of a Cat D car I bought back in 2013 was this MINI Cooper. Spot the damage…..
A pretty insignificant dent on the bonnet, which was easily pulled out and repaired with a light skim of filler. Written off based on the cost of a new bonnet from MINI, paint, materials, labour and then probably storage and hire car costs. Surely still would have been repaired and not recorded if the previous owner decided he wanted to have the car repaired and keep it rather than take the payout…..
The brings me onto the new classifications:
• Category S – S stands for “Structural Damage”. Exactly as it says, this should be for vehicles with damage to the structure, rather than just cosmetic/outer panel damage. No VIC check is required any more. No new MOT required, but the V5 is destroyed to be reapplied for. You can tax the vehicle at the post office at the same time as sending off the application as long as the MOT is still in date. Again, the new V5 should state that it has been damaged and repaired, but this is not always the case. HPI check will always show it.
• Category N – N stands for “Non-Structural Damage”. Again, very self-explanatory. Any Cat N car should have superficial/cosmetic and maybe very minor damage to mechanical items. No new MOT required, no checks, V5 remains the same. Again, HPI check will always show status.
On paper, this system is a lot better, but in reality, very little has changed. I am always seeing Cat S cars with no structural damage and Cat N cars with structural damage. The vehicles are simply not inspected thoroughly enough (it’s never going to be possible to without fully stripping them). So, in reality, it is still done at least partially using the value-based system.
The main thing that spurred me on to write this post is that I have just bought a new vehicle for myself, which is recorded as Cat S. In other words, this vehicle should have sustained structural damage and/or damage that would cost more than 100% of the vehicle’s pre-damage value, which in this case was listed at £9000.
Here is the vehicle in question:
It is a 2006 Nissan Elgrand Rider S Autech. A nice spec, low mileage example, which pre-damage would have been absolutely immaculate. Now, I bought this online from Copart up in York and had it delivered down to me. I bought it completely blind and had a few concerns that there would be some hidden suspension, sill damage being classified Cat S.
I had it delivered to my work on Friday night, so didn’t see it until Saturday Morning. This is how it has played out since then:
Saturday morning, it went upon the ramp and had a thorough inspection. The verdict was that there was absolutely nothing wrong with it aside from the outer panel damage.
Next step, take it for a drive. Where I work, we are on an estate with a couple of miles of private roads and it’s virtually empty all weekend, so good chance to test it. It drives perfectly. Tracking is 95% perfect, so get it on the Hunter Hawkeye alignment system to get it to 100%. Happy with how it drives, so a quick trip to the post office with a V62 form and the new V5 is applied for and it’s taxed for 12 months. The only thing I’ve had to do in order to tax it is pay the £25 fee for a new V5 so they can process it there and then. It should be free for a new V5 for a Cat S, but that would take longer. The DVLA will send me a cheque to reimburse this fee when the new V5 arrives.
A full list of parts required for repair is made:
• NSF Wing
• NSF Door
• NS Sliding Door
• NS Rider Sideskirt
• Ideally a NSF alloy wheel as there is a chunk out of the old one where it has been scraped
30 seconds on eBay brings up someone who has a wing and both doors in good shape (wrong colour, so need painting, which I’d do anyway). So I order those and ask for a delivery address as they’re within half an hour of me. A couple of hours later the guy delivered them to me FOC. Result!
I then find an Elgrand Specialist up in Hull who has the correct Rider Sideskirt and wheel. Yesterday, I rang him up to arrange payment. The parts arrived today. The other panels needed very little repair and prep, so they were completely yesterday and the vehicle is being panelled up today. The whole repair will be completed by tomorrow at the latest. All parts and materials came in at under £400 and the vehicle is immaculate once again, and even if you can tell it’s been painted, there’s no way of knowing that the damaged, bolt-on panels had been replaced. Structural damage? £9000+ worth of repairs? Yeah right!
There is certainly no structural damage there and clearly wasn’t even to a casual observer doing their checks, so I can only assume they’ve gone on the old value-based system and just ran scared of it being a JDM-only import/specialist vehicle
I always keep a very comprehensive photographic and video record of any vehicle I repair for when it comes to be resold and as I typically only have good spec and immaculate examples that stand out from almost all others for sale, the difference I tend to get compared to a non-recorded example has always been very minimal.
There are far, far more extensively damaged and repaired vehicles on the road that aren’t recorded compared to the majority of Cat N’s and even Cat S’s. At least when you have a marker on the vehicle it makes you extra vigilant, knowing that there has been a repair.
This is just intended to help people who have asked questions about recorded vehicles and what it all means and also to give two examples of vehicles that in reality it is ridiculous that they have been “written off” and have proved to be bargains for me.
Drawweight said:
I don’t mind buying a ‘write off’ at a suitably adjusted price but one thing I do insist on is pictures pre repair.
If you don’t have these or you are the second/ third owner and you haven’t got or haven’t kept those pictures then I’d walk by.
I don't think that there's anything that would put me off if the price was right and an thorough inspection showed up ok, but yes, that would have a large bearing on price. If you don’t have these or you are the second/ third owner and you haven’t got or haven’t kept those pictures then I’d walk by.
mbwoy84 said:
I don't think that there's anything that would put me off if the price was right and an thorough inspection showed up ok, but yes, that would have a large bearing on price.
Hi, thanks for that. Is there any chance you could look at my thread and give your thought, looking at retaining my car after uneconomical repair report? Cheers.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=20...
I can't believe such a well written and informative post disappeared with just one reply when it was originally posted. Thank you OP for taking the time, I certainly appreciate it. One of my cars is a cat d which at the time of purchase I spent a long time looking in to, yet I still learnt a lot from this post.
That's a really helpful post for anyone not familiar with the categories.
Back in the 80s I was working for an insurance company and bought a couple of stolen/recovered cars from them that were undamaged. One had no battery or spare wheel but they were both great, and the public didn't have access to the HPI database then!
In the 90s a mate of mine was one of their salvage buyers and I had a couple of cars classified as BER (before Cat c and D) I think. One had been vandalised so needed a new interior as did the other one that had been water damaged and they were both fine. Then I bought another stolen/recovered one from him that needed and interior and wheels that was also fine.
I don't think there is any real difference between Cat S and Cat N these days. As you say the cars aren't properly inspected - in fact I think they quite often aren't inspected at all!
A relative's car got categorised as a Cat S in 2018 based purely on a couple of photos from his phone - it never got inspected at all!
He kept the car, got a used bonnet on Ebay and a new pattern wing then had the front end resprayed to get rid of the stone chips for slightly less than the settlement he got! Although it did prove hard to sell.
The crucial factor for me would be seeing photos of the damage.
Back in the 80s I was working for an insurance company and bought a couple of stolen/recovered cars from them that were undamaged. One had no battery or spare wheel but they were both great, and the public didn't have access to the HPI database then!
In the 90s a mate of mine was one of their salvage buyers and I had a couple of cars classified as BER (before Cat c and D) I think. One had been vandalised so needed a new interior as did the other one that had been water damaged and they were both fine. Then I bought another stolen/recovered one from him that needed and interior and wheels that was also fine.
I don't think there is any real difference between Cat S and Cat N these days. As you say the cars aren't properly inspected - in fact I think they quite often aren't inspected at all!
A relative's car got categorised as a Cat S in 2018 based purely on a couple of photos from his phone - it never got inspected at all!
He kept the car, got a used bonnet on Ebay and a new pattern wing then had the front end resprayed to get rid of the stone chips for slightly less than the settlement he got! Although it did prove hard to sell.
The crucial factor for me would be seeing photos of the damage.
Be very careful with any category. Once they leave the scene of the accident on a tow truck seems they’re into the Wild West. Facebook copart victims is worth a read. Lots of cry babies bemoaning they haven’t managed to drive home in a mint runner for next to nothing but some interesting stories like swapping out good parts or realising the engine/gearbox is fubar’d and then sticking them back through the block..
The old CAT C that used to stipulate an MOT and VIC check before putting the car back on the road was much better than the current CAT S rules. It is like the wild Wild West out there, with some folk buying this cars, carrying out the work o their driveway themselves, MOT the car and put it up for sale.
I would not recommend buying a CAT S that hadn’t been repaired by an approved body shop, better still the OEM of the car. It’s way too dangerous and fraught.
I would not recommend buying a CAT S that hadn’t been repaired by an approved body shop, better still the OEM of the car. It’s way too dangerous and fraught.
I had a Cat D caterham that had been rebuilt on a completely new panelled chassis. Was like new. I also had photos of the rebuild.
Was a fantastic car for me, but a complete pain in the backside to sell. Everyone who came to see it tried to find something that was wrong because of the accident. Bit of dirt on the carpet, must be from the accident etc!
Was a fantastic car for me, but a complete pain in the backside to sell. Everyone who came to see it tried to find something that was wrong because of the accident. Bit of dirt on the carpet, must be from the accident etc!
I recently bought a Mitsubishi Colt from copart as a cheap runaround. It had a minor scuff to the rear bumper and a small dent in the boot.
It was classified as a Cat S due to the boot being unable to open. The reason the boot wouldn't open is because the linkage had popped off between the handle and latch. Reconnected and all is well.
Think the assessor had to assume the structure was bent and that's why the boot wouldn't open. Can't complain, I've got a cheap to run car for pennies.
It was classified as a Cat S due to the boot being unable to open. The reason the boot wouldn't open is because the linkage had popped off between the handle and latch. Reconnected and all is well.
Think the assessor had to assume the structure was bent and that's why the boot wouldn't open. Can't complain, I've got a cheap to run car for pennies.
BertBert said:
I had a Cat D caterham that had been rebuilt on a completely new panelled chassis. Was like new. I also had photos of the rebuild.
Was a fantastic car for me, but a complete pain in the backside to sell. Everyone who came to see it tried to find something that was wrong because of the accident. Bit of dirt on the carpet, must be from the accident etc!
Sounds normal for Caterham sale. Full adenoids and beard spec car. Was a fantastic car for me, but a complete pain in the backside to sell. Everyone who came to see it tried to find something that was wrong because of the accident. Bit of dirt on the carpet, must be from the accident etc!
Sorry for resurrecting such an old thread, hoping the OP is still around or maybe someone else can clarify something for me.
When buying and repairing a Cat S vehicle, must it be 'inspected' to check the repairs before it's put back on the road ?
Who inspects it? the DVLA?
If the damage is just cosmetic what are they going to inspect? eg the bent door now has been replaced with an unbent door?
It seems that the OP and the other couple of examples on here DID NOT get their vehicles inspected in any way and just MOTd them, applied for the V5 and cracked on as normal, obviously declaring it Cat S to insurer.
When buying and repairing a Cat S vehicle, must it be 'inspected' to check the repairs before it's put back on the road ?
Who inspects it? the DVLA?
If the damage is just cosmetic what are they going to inspect? eg the bent door now has been replaced with an unbent door?
It seems that the OP and the other couple of examples on here DID NOT get their vehicles inspected in any way and just MOTd them, applied for the V5 and cracked on as normal, obviously declaring it Cat S to insurer.
Cat S cars don't need to be inspected, but I think they need to have an MOT pass after being repaired.
The insurers of my nephew's BMW (above) definitely wanted to see one to continue cover.
My car had a light tap in the rear in 2023 that was handled by the insurer of the car responsible and they made it a Cat N. When I told my insurer they wanted to see a post accident MOT.
The insurers of my nephew's BMW (above) definitely wanted to see one to continue cover.
My car had a light tap in the rear in 2023 that was handled by the insurer of the car responsible and they made it a Cat N. When I told my insurer they wanted to see a post accident MOT.
Thank you for this thread!
I’ve learned so much in last few days and written off cars as I want to buy one.
I found this post really helpful and as I sadly don’t have a personal friend in the repair trade I’m hoping that I might get some help on here x
Here’s a pic of my cat S car pre repair. Does this look like a fairly simple fix? Or perhaps you can’t tell enough from just this pic.
I’m trying to clarify that if I got hit in this spot again that the car safety would function still as it should.
It’s passed its MOT and I will test drive tomorrow to confirm it’s all driving smoothly as I’ve been advised.
I know MOT covers suspension and steering checks but do I need to get a more thorough diagnostic and analysis? I will also check for any signs of movement around the car…
I can’t post the pic yet as I’m a new member, it’s on Flickr a/c J FifeXX
Thanks for taking the time!
I’ve learned so much in last few days and written off cars as I want to buy one.
I found this post really helpful and as I sadly don’t have a personal friend in the repair trade I’m hoping that I might get some help on here x
Here’s a pic of my cat S car pre repair. Does this look like a fairly simple fix? Or perhaps you can’t tell enough from just this pic.
I’m trying to clarify that if I got hit in this spot again that the car safety would function still as it should.
It’s passed its MOT and I will test drive tomorrow to confirm it’s all driving smoothly as I’ve been advised.
I know MOT covers suspension and steering checks but do I need to get a more thorough diagnostic and analysis? I will also check for any signs of movement around the car…
I can’t post the pic yet as I’m a new member, it’s on Flickr a/c J FifeXX
Thanks for taking the time!
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