Stock market or classic cars?
Discussion
An article in the latest edition of US car magazine Road & Track compares performance of the stock market with the most sought-after classic cars from 1963. Figures shown are annual appreciation over the past 58 years,
Ferrari 250 GTO - up 15%
S&P Index - up 10.4%
Shelby Cobra - up 9%
Corvette Sting Ray - up 5.6%
Jaguar E-Type - up 5.6%
Porsche 356 - up 5.1%
Unless your name's Nick Mason the stock market looks rather good!
Ferrari 250 GTO - up 15%
S&P Index - up 10.4%
Shelby Cobra - up 9%
Corvette Sting Ray - up 5.6%
Jaguar E-Type - up 5.6%
Porsche 356 - up 5.1%
Unless your name's Nick Mason the stock market looks rather good!
Interesting.
Do they include maintenance costs?
Stocks (and property) are definitely less risky and costly on average. I would imagine the average "classic" car would probably give negative returns with the costs involved, unless you go for "selected ones"
There a are few cars that doubled in price over the last decade. There are tons of shares that multiplied.
Do they include maintenance costs?
Stocks (and property) are definitely less risky and costly on average. I would imagine the average "classic" car would probably give negative returns with the costs involved, unless you go for "selected ones"
There a are few cars that doubled in price over the last decade. There are tons of shares that multiplied.
Edited by chris7676 on Thursday 25th March 12:41
rockin said:
It's always the practicalities that get in the way!
But imagine the "risks" if you invested in fancy wines and had them all stacked in the garage....
Drinking them would be the big risk.But imagine the "risks" if you invested in fancy wines and had them all stacked in the garage....
I assume those value are based on as new price.
When I bought my 911 15 years ago, there were all number of Porsches you could have bought cheap and made many multiples of now, 964RS £25K, 964 turbo £24K 964 turbo 2 £45K 993 GT2 < £100k and so on. You could get a 2.7RS for not a lot and look where they are now.
supersport said:
Drinking them would be the big risk.
I assume those value are based on as new price.
When I bought my 911 15 years ago, there were all number of Porsches you could have bought cheap and made many multiples of now, 964RS £25K, 964 turbo £24K 964 turbo 2 £45K 993 GT2 < £100k and so on. You could get a 2.7RS for not a lot and look where they are now.
Will any of these ever come back to normal - or has QE actually inflated these to this level OR is it people want more tax free capital gains (or ahem laundering cash ahem)I assume those value are based on as new price.
When I bought my 911 15 years ago, there were all number of Porsches you could have bought cheap and made many multiples of now, 964RS £25K, 964 turbo £24K 964 turbo 2 £45K 993 GT2 < £100k and so on. You could get a 2.7RS for not a lot and look where they are now.
rockin said:
It's always the practicalities that get in the way!
But imagine the "risks" if you invested in fancy wines and had them all stacked in the garage....
The risk in investing in fancy wine and keeping them in your garage is that they are only good for drinking But imagine the "risks" if you invested in fancy wines and had them all stacked in the garage....
Provenance is key with wine like it is with classic cars (and art etc.). You need to keep it in a bonded warehouse, which removes the temptation to drink it somewhat. The cost (well what I pay at least) is just over £1 a bottle a year. The nice thing is when you take it out of bond you only pay duty and VAT on the purchase price.
It‘s a topic that fascinates me. I wrote my master‘s thesis 8 years ago on building an offering for the private bank I work for as an alternative asset class, but came to the conclusion it was too far outside our core competencies to make sense.
As an aside, I was offered yesterday on the initial release of Ch. Latour 2013. It‘s a ropey vintage, is starting to drink already and has maybe 12-15 years cellaring in it. Basically the pitch was it‘s cheap way to try one of the most prized wines in the world and it is a low production vintage so may appreciate due to scarcity. I‘ve given it a swerve as it was still £2,100 before duty and tax for a case of 6! Sadly that price isn‘t drinking wine for me.
Simpo Two said:
That's true, I was thinking of motor insurance when I typed it 
You‘ve basically got to think of collectible investments like they are less liquid commodities:Cost of carry - financing, storage and insurance costs
No yield
But they can, depending on your motivations, have great intrinsic value - enjoyment, ego, philanthropy etc.
eyebeebe said:
rockin said:
It's always the practicalities that get in the way!
But imagine the "risks" if you invested in fancy wines and had them all stacked in the garage....
The risk in investing in fancy wine and keeping them in your garage is that they are only good for drinking But imagine the "risks" if you invested in fancy wines and had them all stacked in the garage....
Provenance is key with wine like it is with classic cars (and art etc.). You need to keep it in a bonded warehouse, which removes the temptation to drink it somewhat. The cost (well what I pay at least) is just over £1 a bottle a year. The nice thing is when you take it out of bond you only pay duty and VAT on the purchase price.
It‘s a topic that fascinates me. I wrote my master‘s thesis 8 years ago on building an offering for the private bank I work for as an alternative asset class, but came to the conclusion it was too far outside our core competencies to make sense.
As an aside, I was offered yesterday on the initial release of Ch. Latour 2013. It‘s a ropey vintage, is starting to drink already and has maybe 12-15 years cellaring in it. Basically the pitch was it‘s cheap way to try one of the most prized wines in the world and it is a low production vintage so may appreciate due to scarcity. I‘ve given it a swerve as it was still £2,100 before duty and tax for a case of 6! Sadly that price isn‘t drinking wine for me.
Are they investments? Absolutely but often not in the way that many rash participants realise. Dealing costs, spreads, liquidity, lack of regulation, authenticity risk makes it so.
If you're maxing your wrappers year on year, have hit lifetime limits and already diversified into the more common markets such as property then looking to these other markets make the same sense and fit into the same bucket as gold. You pick the ones that you have an interest in and will gain pleasure from.
You can probably at crypto currencies to the same pot.
The reality is that market spreads and storage costs will often erode much of the performance but if your reason is diversification and pleasure then the specific numeric returns aren't the only positive returns.
Welshbeef said:
supersport said:
Drinking them would be the big risk.
I assume those value are based on as new price.
When I bought my 911 15 years ago, there were all number of Porsches you could have bought cheap and made many multiples of now, 964RS £25K, 964 turbo £24K 964 turbo 2 £45K 993 GT2 < £100k and so on. You could get a 2.7RS for not a lot and look where they are now.
Will any of these ever come back to normal - or has QE actually inflated these to this level OR is it people want more tax free capital gains (or ahem laundering cash ahem)I assume those value are based on as new price.
When I bought my 911 15 years ago, there were all number of Porsches you could have bought cheap and made many multiples of now, 964RS £25K, 964 turbo £24K 964 turbo 2 £45K 993 GT2 < £100k and so on. You could get a 2.7RS for not a lot and look where they are now.
Many of these are now well over priced, so they could easily come down. There was a 2.7 RS fresh from Porsche Classic factory restoration that sat in the local OPC for several years. Had been sold several times and never left. The price went up a lot in that time and I am sure the OPC took a nice cut every time. Very sad when it should have been enjoyed. It wasn’t even looked at.
Personally for me a car is for driving and wine is for drinking, so I wouldn’t be investing in either.
Especially as DA says, not maxed everything else out yet.
Please stop this man-maths-killing logic.
No-one cares about the tech fund in my son's ISA that has double in value over the past year. People are far more impressed that my 993 has doubled in value over 15 years even thought I've probably spent double the purchase cost keeping the thing on the road.
As for future values, I expect only very rarest and best to keep rising. I expect values for my 993 to drop off once people like me die off over the next 20-30 years. I don't think there's enough interest from the younger generation to maintain values beyond this time.
I'll leave 'investment' in classic cars, art, wine to the speculators and buy them if funds allow and expecting to get nothing in return except enjoyment.
No-one cares about the tech fund in my son's ISA that has double in value over the past year. People are far more impressed that my 993 has doubled in value over 15 years even thought I've probably spent double the purchase cost keeping the thing on the road.
As for future values, I expect only very rarest and best to keep rising. I expect values for my 993 to drop off once people like me die off over the next 20-30 years. I don't think there's enough interest from the younger generation to maintain values beyond this time.
I'll leave 'investment' in classic cars, art, wine to the speculators and buy them if funds allow and expecting to get nothing in return except enjoyment.
LeoSayer said:
Please stop this man-maths-killing logic.
No-one cares about the tech fund in my son's ISA that has double in value over the past year. People are far more impressed that my 993 has doubled in value over 15 years even thought I've probably spent double the purchase cost keeping the thing on the road.
As for future values, I expect only very rarest and best to keep rising. I expect values for my 993 to drop off once people like me die off over the next 20-30 years. I don't think there's enough interest from the younger generation to maintain values beyond this time.
I'll leave 'investment' in classic cars, art, wine to the speculators and buy them if funds allow and expecting to get nothing in return except enjoyment.
Why not get your stock holding certificated and stick them on the glass of the 993. Double winning!!! No-one cares about the tech fund in my son's ISA that has double in value over the past year. People are far more impressed that my 993 has doubled in value over 15 years even thought I've probably spent double the purchase cost keeping the thing on the road.
As for future values, I expect only very rarest and best to keep rising. I expect values for my 993 to drop off once people like me die off over the next 20-30 years. I don't think there's enough interest from the younger generation to maintain values beyond this time.
I'll leave 'investment' in classic cars, art, wine to the speculators and buy them if funds allow and expecting to get nothing in return except enjoyment.
if I put my IM stash to one side, I'm about 20% up on shares since about June last year
however in June last year bought a car for 80k in an auction, over the last 9m have spent around 90k on restoring it. so it owes me £170k.
Got 3 valuations over the last week ranging from £245 to £300k
however in June last year bought a car for 80k in an auction, over the last 9m have spent around 90k on restoring it. so it owes me £170k.
Got 3 valuations over the last week ranging from £245 to £300k
LeoSayer said:
DonkeyApple said:
Why not get your stock holding certificated and stick them on the glass of the 993. Double winning!!!
Because it lives in a temperature and humidity-controlled bubble so no one will see it. Can't destroy the value by driving it.Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff