What’s this Vantage?!

[Beefmeister]

YouTuber SeenThroughGlass spotted this yesterday. Twin central pipes. Wonder what it could be?



4-cyl model using the A45S engine? Oh Christ can you imagine, you lot will have a meltdown

[anonymous-user]

I have it on good authority, it's a development mule that's running a 2.0 litre Claude Hill lump, similar to that seen in the 2-Litre Sports from 1948. It produces an impressive 90 horsepower, and has been developed in coordination with a hybrid system comprised of a hamster in a small wheel, forming a motor generator unit. To address fears that this hybrid system wasn't 'home brewed', the hamster was sourced from a pet shop close to Gaydon.

One only worries that it was from Pets at Home, and as such, probably isn't as purist as the small, boutique pet shops that the company ought to have used. Also in development, an AMR variant, featuring two hamsters for additional hybrid power, again, locally sourced to ensure it meets the expectations of the discerning would-be Vantage buyer.

[Beefmeister]

In all seriousness though, the Speedster had central pipes, could this be the much anticipated V12?

[Big Ry]

Beefmeister said:

In all seriousness though, the Speedster had central pipes, could this be the much anticipated V12?

The issue for me is that the model just hasn't sold anywhere near as well as AML had anticipated, and that's not really to do with the engine, it's the looks.

I'm not sure what the benefit would be of spending to engineer a V12, as a large % of customer wouldn't care, they're not buying it for the engine, they're buying on looks, and for whatever reason that hasn't worked out too well to date. Coupled with the fact that countries like China will impose horribly high taxes on anything over 4L, you're also very much limiting the market there.

I've said it before (and I may well be wrong), but I suspect the time for a V12 Vantage may have passed.

Could it not just be a mule for the much rumoured facelifted model ?

[MarkwG]

It could be testing anything, may not even by Vantage related. Test mules come in all shapes & sizes

[anonymous-user]

Big Ry said:

The issue for me is that the model just hasn't sold anywhere near as well as AML had anticipated, and that's not really to do with the engine, it's the looks.

I'm not sure what the benefit would be of spending to engineer a V12, as a large % of customer wouldn't care, they're not buying it for the engine, they're buying on looks, and for whatever reason that hasn't worked out too well to date. Coupled with the fact that countries like China will impose horribly high taxes on anything over 4L, you're also very much limiting the market there.

I've said it before (and I may well be wrong), but I suspect the time for a V12 Vantage may have passed.

Could it not just be a mule for the much rumoured facelifted model ?

It's true that in overseas markets, the 4.0 litre threshold is a barrier; it's a two-way street though. If you come at it from the other direction, if you offer a big, hairy V12 when your rivals are only putting downsized offerings on the table, some will pay for the privilege. Times are changing, and some buyers will want the excess, knowing its a dinosaur, seeing out its last few years.

There's a 115kg weight penalty for having the AE31 engine on board, but if the same is true as it was back then, despite the V8VS being dynamically more balanced than the V12V, buyers seemed to favour the V12. Driving dynamics are of less interest to some, who favour soundtrack and 'authenticity of source' when it comes to power plants.

I don't know where the rumours about another face-lifted Vantage come from. The Vaned grille option was the face-lift, and a whole new car is some way off, unless the plan has dramatically changed. To address the problems that many of you have with the current car, requires re-styling every panel ahead of the A-pillar, along with the doors (because it must have a traditional side strake). That's not a face-lift, that's a whole new car, and as these things aren't getting any cheaper, complaints about the list price will only continue. If folk haven't warmed to the car by now, they're in for a wait until one they do like, does arrive IMO.

[Beefmeister]

NFC 85 Vette said:

It's true that in overseas markets, the 4.0 litre threshold is a barrier; it's a two-way street though. If you come at it from the other direction, if you offer a big, hairy V12 when your rivals are only putting downsized offerings on the table, some will pay for the privilege. Times are changing, and some buyers will want the excess, knowing its a dinosaur, seeing out its last few years.

There's a 115kg weight penalty for having the AE31 engine on board, but if the same is true as it was back then, despite the V8VS being dynamically more balanced than the V12V, buyers seemed to favour the V12. Driving dynamics are of less interest to some, who favour soundtrack and 'authenticity of source' when it comes to power plants.

I don't know where the rumours about another face-lifted Vantage come from. The Vaned grille option was the face-lift, and a whole new car is some way off, unless the plan has dramatically changed. To address the problems that many of you have with the current car, requires re-styling every panel ahead of the A-pillar, along with the doors (because it must have a traditional side strake). That's not a face-lift, that's a whole new car, and as these things aren't getting any cheaper, complaints about the list price will only continue. If folk haven't warmed to the car by now, they're in for a wait until one they do like, does arrive IMO.

Indeed, all very good points. There's no facelift coming, and it doesn't need it!

Sticking the V12 in there would add a massive USP, something the AMG GT will never have even in absurdly expensive Black Series guise.

It would likely cost £180k, but with 600+hp it would be an absolute animal and would, I think, sell better than the V8.

[Big Ry]

Beefmeister said:

Indeed, all very good points. There's no facelift coming, and it doesn't need it!

Sticking the V12 in there would add a massive USP, something the AMG GT will never have even in absurdly expensive Black Series guise.

It would likely cost £180k, but with 600+hp it would be an absolute animal and would, I think, sell better than the V8.

I can't imagine it's a cheap exercise to get the V12 variant out the door, and as you say, it would probably be £50k more than the V8. It's an exceptionally limited market that will want it, or be willing to pay for it. Is there really a business case for it these days ?

If AML said they wanted large deposits from everyone who wants one in order to assess genuine interest, I suspect the uptake would be very small. Mainly some die hard petrol heads and collectors.

I also think it would need to be closer in power to the DBSS if they did it. If they were going to make a point of building it, then it would need to be beyond mental I think, which is how the previous V12V was seen on release.

[Beefmeister]

Big Ry said:

I can't imagine it's a cheap exercise to get the V12 variant out the door, and as you say, it would probably be £50k more than the V8. It's an exceptionally limited market that will want it, or be willing to pay for it. Is there really a business case for it these days ?

If AML said they wanted large deposits from everyone who wants one in order to assess genuine interest, I suspect the uptake would be very small. Mainly some die hard petrol heads and collectors.

I also think it would need to be closer in power to the DBSS if they did it. If they were going to make a point of building it, then it would need to be beyond mental I think, which is how the previous V12V was seen on release.

I'd agree, but then Merc has managed to sell hundreds of GT-R Black Series at £335,000 so i've got no idea what's going on at the moment

[AdamV12V]

Well the external looks never really put me off, the interior however I found somewhat more of a disappointment.

The engine I was probably neutral on if pushed, but stick that DBS V12 in it together with a manual gearbox and you have my attention! Turbo or not, its a hell of an engine and sounds just about as good as anything else in production right now. Give it a healthy splash of the speedster interior treatment too and its game on, price notwithstanding of course!

Only problem is I don't really have space for another and neither of the other two will be sold.

Let's see - fingers crossed they get this one just right.

[AlexT]

I knew that looked familar...was only looking at a pic of the V12 speedster the other day and wondering why the central exits? I actually prefer the current setup exhaust-wise.

But by all means put the V12 in and the Speedster front bonnet treatment on the Vantage and it will look and sound terrific!

[anonymous-user]

AdamV12V said:

Well the external looks never really put me off, the interior however I found somewhat more of a disappointment.

The engine I was probably neutral on if pushed, but stick that DBS V12 in it together with a manual gearbox and you have my attention! Turbo or not, its a hell of an engine and sounds just about as good as anything else in production right now. Give it a healthy splash of the speedster interior treatment too and its game on, price notwithstanding of course!

Only problem is I don't really have space for another and neither of the other two will be sold.

Let's see - fingers crossed they get this one just right.

Just on the gearbox, it's unlikely a manual gearbox will be mated with the AE31, soon at least - the 7-speed manual box cannot handle the torque (it's why the Vantage AMR has less torque than the auto version).

Of course back in the N/A days, it was never a constraint, because the most the AM29 produced was 465lb/ft, vs the 516lbs/ft in AE31 DB11 tune, and 664lbs/ft in the DBSS. As un-involving to drive as torque converter auto equipped cars are, they can tolerate far higher torque outputs.

Perhaps in the future a stronger manual gearbox will be available (they do exist, but they're not OEM).

[AdamV12V]

NFC 85 Vette said:

Just on the gearbox, it's unlikely a manual gearbox will be mated with the AE31, soon at least - the 7-speed manual box cannot handle the torque (it's why the Vantage AMR has less torque than the auto version).

Of course back in the N/A days, it was never a constraint, because the most the AM29 produced was 465lb/ft, vs the 516lbs/ft in AE31 DB11 tune, and 664lbs/ft in the DBSS. As un-involving to drive as torque converter auto equipped cars are, they can tolerate far higher torque outputs.

Perhaps in the future a stronger manual gearbox will be available (they do exist, but they're not OEM).

Yeah Im aware the 7spd dogleg cant handle the torque... Shame.

I wonder if Mercedes have a good manual box that can handle it though?

[AdamV12AMR]

NFC 85 Vette said:

I have it on good authority, it's a development mule that's running a 2.0 litre Claude Hill lump, similar to that seen in the 2-Litre Sports from 1948. It produces an impressive 90 horsepower, and has been developed in coordination with a hybrid system comprised of a hamster in a small wheel, forming a motor generator unit. To address fears that this hybrid system wasn't 'home brewed', the hamster was sourced from a pet shop close to Gaydon.

One only worries that it was from Pets at Home, and as such, probably isn't as purist as the small, boutique pet shops that the company ought to have used. Also in development, an AMR variant, featuring two hamsters for additional hybrid power, again, locally sourced to ensure it meets the expectations of the discerning would-be Vantage buyer.

Alas, NFC, the humble domestic hamster originated from Syria, so I fear this too will fail the True Aston Martin (tm) test from Speedraser et al.

I fear our friends in Gaydon may need to source a more quintessentially British rodent to quell the masses - maybe a vole or a dormouse? - to couple with the Claude Hill (which is perfect by the way, albeit 'Claude' sounds a bit too French for my liking)

[Jon39]

AdamV12V said:

I wonder if Mercedes have a good manual box that can handle it though?

You are probably having a laugh Adam.
Possibly one of their lorry gearboxes, but I doubt that even those are manual these days.

Mercedes-Benz last gasp with a manual, was probably the C-class about year 2000.
Their handbrakes were then operated by a foot pedal.

Imagine how to accomplish a hill start then, with a manual gearchange.
The driver would require three legs, so if anyone was born deformed and only had two feet, this would be the procedure;

1. Apply the foot operated handbrake firmly.
2. Get out of the car, to place a brick under the rear of the rear tyre (assuming the hill start would be forwards).
3. Return to sit in the drivers seat.
4. Release the foot operated handbrake and allow the brick to hold the car.
5. Your two feet would now be used for clutch and accelerator, to start the car moving up the hill.
6a. Experienced owners can miss this step, because they would have previously tied rope on to the brick, attaching it to the car.
6b. Stop the car at the crest of the hill, get out and walk back down the hill to retrieve the brick for future use.

They have smart engineers at Mercedes-Benz, but sometimes even they cannot see the obvious.

[ds666]

Jon39 said:

AdamV12V said:

I wonder if Mercedes have a good manual box that can handle it though?

You are probably having a laugh Adam.
Possibly one of their lorry gearboxes, but I doubt that even those are manual these days.

Mercedes-Benz last gasp with a manual, was probably the C-class about year 2000.
Their handbrakes were then operated by a foot pedal.

Imagine how to accomplish a hill start then, with a manual gearchange.
The driver would require three legs, so if anyone was born deformed and only had two feet, this would be the procedure;

1. Apply the foot operated handbrake firmly.
2. Get out of the car, to place a brick under the rear of the rear tyre (assuming the hill start would be forwards).
3. Return to sit in the drivers seat.
4. Release the foot operated handbrake and allow the brick to hold the car.
5. Your two feet would now be used for clutch and accelerator, to start the car moving up the hill.
6a. Experienced owners can miss this step, because they would have previously tied rope on to the brick, attaching it to the car.
6b. Stop the car at the crest of the hill, get out and walk back down the hill to retrieve the brick for future use.

They have smart engineers at Mercedes-Benz, but sometimes even they cannot see the obvious.

Mercedes always teach people how to heel and toe as part of the handover

[Jon39]

ds666 said:

Jon39 said:

AdamV12V said:

I wonder if Mercedes have a good manual box that can handle it though?

You are probably having a laugh Adam.
Possibly one of their lorry gearboxes, but I doubt that even those are manual these days.

Mercedes-Benz last gasp with a manual, was probably the C-class about year 2000.
Their handbrakes were then operated by a foot pedal.

Imagine how to accomplish a hill start then, with a manual gearchange.
The driver would require three legs, so if anyone was born deformed and only had two feet, this would be the procedure;

1. Apply the foot operated handbrake firmly.
2. Get out of the car, to place a brick under the rear of the rear tyre (assuming the hill start would be forwards).
3. Return to sit in the drivers seat.
4. Release the foot operated handbrake and allow the brick to hold the car.
5. Your two feet would now be used for clutch and accelerator, to start the car moving up the hill.
6a. Experienced owners can miss this step, because they would have previously tied rope on to the brick, attaching it to the car.
6b. Stop the car at the crest of the hill, get out and walk back down the hill to retrieve the brick for future use.

They have smart engineers at Mercedes-Benz, but sometimes even they cannot see the obvious.

Mercedes always teach people how to heel and toe as part of the handover

Did they conduct a test after that tuition DS ?

Therefore press brake with right foot to hold the car on the hill,
Use left foot to take pressure of foot handbrake (avoids loud bang at release),
Use right hand to pull hand brake release,
Use left foot to press clutch pedal,
Swivel right foot whilst keeping steady brake pressure, to press accelerator with heel of right foot,
Use left foot to gently release clutch pedal
- and at the same time
Use heel of right foot to increase engine speed and also at the same time with toes of right foot gradually release brake pressure.

No wonder everyone wanted auto with Hill hold Assist.
Maybe that was their cunning plan, to end manual gearchanges.

Edited by Jon39 on Friday 26th March 16:48

[MarkwG]

Jon39 said:

ds666 said:

Jon39 said:

AdamV12V said:

I wonder if Mercedes have a good manual box that can handle it though?

You are probably having a laugh Adam.
Possibly one of their lorry gearboxes, but I doubt that even those are manual these days.

Mercedes-Benz last gasp with a manual, was probably the C-class about year 2000.
Their handbrakes were then operated by a foot pedal.

Imagine how to accomplish a hill start then, with a manual gearchange.
The driver would require three legs, so if anyone was born deformed and only had two feet, this would be the procedure;

1. Apply the foot operated handbrake firmly.
2. Get out of the car, to place a brick under the rear of the rear tyre (assuming the hill start would be forwards).
3. Return to sit in the drivers seat.
4. Release the foot operated handbrake and allow the brick to hold the car.
5. Your two feet would now be used for clutch and accelerator, to start the car moving up the hill.
6a. Experienced owners can miss this step, because they would have previously tied rope on to the brick, attaching it to the car.
6b. Stop the car at the crest of the hill, get out and walk back down the hill to retrieve the brick for future use.

They have smart engineers at Mercedes-Benz, but sometimes even they cannot see the obvious.

Mercedes always teach people how to heel and toe as part of the handover

Did they conduct a test after that tuition DS ?

Therefore press brake with right foot to hold the car on the hill,
Use left foot to take pressure of foot handbrake (avoids loud bang at release),
Use right hand to pull hand brake release,
Use left foot to press clutch pedal,
Swivel right foot whilst keeping steady brake pressure, to press accelerator with heel of right foot,
Use left foot to gently release clutch pedal
- and at the same time
Use heel of right foot to increase engine speed and also at the same time with toes of right foot gradually release brake pressure.

No wonder everyone wanted auto with Hill hold Assist.
Maybe that was their cunning plan, to end manual gearchanges.

Edited by Jon39 on Friday 26th March 16:48

Or just press the button, like almost everyone else does ?

[AstonV]

Beefmeister said:

YouTuber SeenThroughGlass spotted this yesterday. Twin central pipes. Wonder what it could be?



4-cyl model using the A45S engine? Oh Christ can you imagine, you lot will have a meltdown

I say 630 HP V12 Vantage.

[ds666]

Jon39 said:

ds666 said:

Jon39 said:

AdamV12V said:

I wonder if Mercedes have a good manual box that can handle it though?

You are probably having a laugh Adam.
Possibly one of their lorry gearboxes, but I doubt that even those are manual these days.

Mercedes-Benz last gasp with a manual, was probably the C-class about year 2000.
Their handbrakes were then operated by a foot pedal.

Imagine how to accomplish a hill start then, with a manual gearchange.
The driver would require three legs, so if anyone was born deformed and only had two feet, this would be the procedure;

1. Apply the foot operated handbrake firmly.
2. Get out of the car, to place a brick under the rear of the rear tyre (assuming the hill start would be forwards).
3. Return to sit in the drivers seat.
4. Release the foot operated handbrake and allow the brick to hold the car.
5. Your two feet would now be used for clutch and accelerator, to start the car moving up the hill.
6a. Experienced owners can miss this step, because they would have previously tied rope on to the brick, attaching it to the car.
6b. Stop the car at the crest of the hill, get out and walk back down the hill to retrieve the brick for future use.

They have smart engineers at Mercedes-Benz, but sometimes even they cannot see the obvious.

Mercedes always teach people how to heel and toe as part of the handover

Did they conduct a test after that tuition DS ?

Therefore press brake with right foot to hold the car on the hill,
Use left foot to take pressure of foot handbrake (avoids loud bang at release),
Use right hand to pull hand brake release,
Use left foot to press clutch pedal,
Swivel right foot whilst keeping steady brake pressure, to press accelerator with heel of right foot,
Use left foot to gently release clutch pedal
- and at the same time
Use heel of right foot to increase engine speed and also at the same time with toes of right foot gradually release brake pressure.

No wonder everyone wanted auto with Hill hold Assist.
Maybe that was their cunning plan, to end manual gearchanges.

Edited by Jon39 on Friday 26th March 16:48

You are right Jon , it is a faf ...