David Lammy - Black, English, and proud

[s1962a]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/29/davi...

I heard this on the radio. I can see both sides of the argument. Is English an ethnicity or an identity?

[Getragdogleg]

I detest him but he's totally right on this one.

[bitchstewie]

I heard that and I also heard his closing comments on LBC today when he asked people to go easy on Jean.

Credit to him as I don't know if I'd have been quite so charitable.

[Jasandjules]

He sounds like he had that well covered and dealt with it in a classy manner.

[Murph7355]

When he's not trying to be a deliberately provocative bellend (which is rare) Lammy actually speaks quite well and is very clearly not a dumb arse.

Which makes it all the more confusing/concerning that he actively chooses to take the approach he does more often than not.

Handled "Jean" well though.

[sone]

I happened to be listening to this and Jean was making me squirm with her opinion. That said Jeans point wasn’t racist as such more that she thought you should be proud of your heritage whatever it may be. What she didn’t make clear was when or how you eventually become English in this case, how many generations it takes.
Bit batty tbh!
Only listening because O’Brien is on holiday, the tt!

[grumbledoak]

"English" used to be very inclusive. Anyone from the Empire could be included. It is relatively recent that Scottish nationalism has pushed a wedge between English (exclusive) vs British (inclusive). God knows what that means for Lammy's point or the rest of the Commonwealth.

[PeteinSQ]

sone said:

I happened to be listening to this and Jean was making me squirm with her opinion. That said Jeans point wasn’t racist as such more that she thought you should be proud of your heritage whatever it may be. What she didn’t make clear was when or how you eventually become English in this case, how many generations it takes.
Bit batty tbh!
Only listening because O’Brien is on holiday, the tt!

Other than her description of immigration as a form of pollution.

[PeteinSQ]

I wonder what someone like Jean would think of me. A large proportion of my antecedents moved to England from Ireland in the mid 1800s. I consider myself English and I've never been to Ireland. Externally I look pretty English so I'm guessing that Jean wouldn't have a problem with this.

If you couldn't see David Lammy and he was chatting to you on the phone would you know he wasn't white and therefore in Jean's mind wasn't English?

[coppernorks]

grumbledoak said:

"English" used to be very inclusive. Anyone from the Empire could be included. It is relatively recent that Scottish nationalism has pushed a wedge between English (exclusive) vs British (inclusive). God knows what that means for Lammy's point or the rest of the Commonwealth.

No, the misuse of English and England vs Britain and British is, and always was, down to pure English ignorance.
England didn't fight the French, the Boers and the Germans, the men of the UK and the British Empire did.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

I have foreign blood at Grandparent level (Italian and Polish), I was born in England but lived in Scotland until only about 4 years old. Dad considered English and Mum Scottish.

Don't know why but I'd always just think of myself as British. If the footy is on I'll support England, if someone asked me where I was from I'd say England but if I'm asked my nationality I'd say British.

I quite like the whole melting pot of British.

[DeepEnd]

PeteinSQ said:

sone said:

I happened to be listening to this and Jean was making me squirm with her opinion. That said Jeans point wasn’t racist as such more that she thought you should be proud of your heritage whatever it may be. What she didn’t make clear was when or how you eventually become English in this case, how many generations it takes.
Bit batty tbh!
Only listening because O’Brien is on holiday, the tt!

Other than her description of immigration as a form of pollution.

Her pollution comment was the defining moment of the interview really wasn't it. Any remaining doubt removed.

[Stigproducts]

This reminds me of a television interview I saw many years ago. A reporter from the US was interviewing Kriss Akabusi after being a member of the 400 metres relay team that took the gold medal at the 1991 Athletics World Championships. The interviewer started off with:

"So, Kriss, what does this mean to you as an African-American?"

"I'm not American, I'm British"

"Yes, but as a British African-American ..."

"I'm not African. I'm not American. I'm British."

This went on for some time before the reporter got so flustered that she gave up and went to interview someone else.

AWOOGA!

[Tony Starks]

PeteinSQ said:

I wonder what someone like Jean would think of me. A large proportion of my antecedents moved to England from Ireland in the mid 1800s. I consider myself English and I've never been to Ireland. Externally I look pretty English so I'm guessing that Jean wouldn't have a problem with this.

If you couldn't see David Lammy and he was chatting to you on the phone would you know he wasn't white and therefore in Jean's mind wasn't English?

I moved the NZ 12 years ago and love having chats with White NZ born people about immigration. They go on about Indians and Asians and moan about them buying businesses and investing in the country. As soon as I mention being an immigrant and that's quite offensive to us all, they change tune to the 'but your all right' mentality. I love throwing in the 'so your racist then' just to make them squirm.

[bitchstewie]

PeteinSQ said:

Other than her description of immigration as a form of pollution.

It's how a single word can lead you from "typical views of many from that generation" to something nastier.

[272BHP]

I do wonder how O'Brien would have handled the same caller. I dislike Lammy's politics but he comes across as quite affable and generous.

The sneering attitude of O'Brien on the other hand makes me want to punch him repeatedly in the face.

[Oilchange]

Im sure there are white south Africans that view themselves as nothing more than south African and white Caribbean's likewise.
Good on Lammy & Kris Akabusi for telling it like it is.

[Ian Geary]

I didn't hear the interview, but it makes me wonder: how many "Jeans" are there in England? (Should that be the UK?)

It is quite a small minded view that English as a race can only belong to people with a long ancestory here. Our empire making habits have clearly affected things.

I think of myself as English, and am now wondering to myself what it stands for (and by extension, what it doesn't)

People who are white? (No way)
Cricket on the green? (Never played it)
C of E? (atheist)
The queen? (Only know first verse of anthem)
Sunday roast? (Rather have a good curry)
Ability to queue politely and not push in


Ok, it's the last one.

[InitialDave]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Dad considered English and Mum Scottish.

Don't know why but I'd always just think of myself as British. If the footy is on I'll support England, if someone asked me where I was from I'd say England but if I'm asked my nationality I'd say British.

I quite like the whole melting pot of British.

I'm similar, I very much consider myself British, not English.

Unfortunately, "English" has rather negative connotations for me, quite often because of people like Jean.

[AnotherClarkey]

InitialDave said:

I'm similar, I very much consider myself British, not English.

Unfortunately, "English" has rather negative connotations for me, quite often because of people like Jean.

That's pretty much where I am. I would very much like a forward looking sense of Englishness to emerge so that we can get past wking over Spitfires and be excited about the future.