Hybrid drum question(s)!
Discussion
I’ve got an acoustic kit and a Roland TD-15kvx electric kit too. I’m really keen to be a bit more adaptable when playing live (covers, mainly) and want to try and dial in the kit sound to be as close to original song as possible, but I don’t want to play a typical electric kit on stage and the TD-15 isn’t good enough in terms of sound for much other than practice.
I’m thinking of replacing the heads on my acoustic kit with mesh heads and adding triggers to make it look right but sound however i want it to. The simplest way to do it I guess would be to invest in a better drum module (TD-50 ideally, but ££££’s!!!), but I’ve got Reaper and EZDrummer for some MIDI stuff that I do for a mate and I love the sounds from that. Is it possible to run the triggers in to Reaper and play live? If so, what would I need between the triggers and the laptop/iPad and, subsequently, from that to the main desk?! I guess some sort of mixer, but I’m a bit ignorant about this side of it - that’s why I chose the noisy part originally, to avoid things that plug in!
Any tips? Also, am I over thinking it? It’s not a professional set up so I don’t need to go mental, but I’d like to just sound better!
I’m thinking of replacing the heads on my acoustic kit with mesh heads and adding triggers to make it look right but sound however i want it to. The simplest way to do it I guess would be to invest in a better drum module (TD-50 ideally, but ££££’s!!!), but I’ve got Reaper and EZDrummer for some MIDI stuff that I do for a mate and I love the sounds from that. Is it possible to run the triggers in to Reaper and play live? If so, what would I need between the triggers and the laptop/iPad and, subsequently, from that to the main desk?! I guess some sort of mixer, but I’m a bit ignorant about this side of it - that’s why I chose the noisy part originally, to avoid things that plug in!
Any tips? Also, am I over thinking it? It’s not a professional set up so I don’t need to go mental, but I’d like to just sound better!
If you think of the TD-15 as turning the triggers into MIDI, then as long as the new triggers on the acoustic kit activate the TD-15 module, you can use the MIDI/USB out from the TD-15 to plug into the computer running Reaper/EZ Drummer then it's just a case of connecting an audio interface from the computer to an amplifier/speaker and/or the PA for the band.
So, in summary the signal flow is :
Acoustic Triggers -> TD-15 -> USB to PC -> Reaper/EZDrummer -> Audio Interface Out of PC -> Amp/Speakers/PA
The only challenge with this is if the audio coming out of the end is 'fast' enough to not cause problems for your timing, this is called latency and it happens because at each interface in the chain there is a small delay of a few milliseconds, which can add up to causing timing problems for drummers who are sensitive to it. We all are, but for some it's worse than others, also it's perceived as worse when listening on headphones rather than on speakers.
A good half way house is to use real cymbals and trigger the drum sounds. It gives you less volume control, but it does sound more 'natural' than having the cymbals coming out of speakers, which is really a measure of how well typical band PA speakers reproduce complex treble sounds.
So, in summary the signal flow is :
Acoustic Triggers -> TD-15 -> USB to PC -> Reaper/EZDrummer -> Audio Interface Out of PC -> Amp/Speakers/PA
The only challenge with this is if the audio coming out of the end is 'fast' enough to not cause problems for your timing, this is called latency and it happens because at each interface in the chain there is a small delay of a few milliseconds, which can add up to causing timing problems for drummers who are sensitive to it. We all are, but for some it's worse than others, also it's perceived as worse when listening on headphones rather than on speakers.
A good half way house is to use real cymbals and trigger the drum sounds. It gives you less volume control, but it does sound more 'natural' than having the cymbals coming out of speakers, which is really a measure of how well typical band PA speakers reproduce complex treble sounds.
Just anticipating another question, most drum triggers (including the Roland ones) use Piezo Crystal sensors to turn drum hits into small voltages, so they mostly work in the same way, though the mounting/isolation of the piezo sensors may differ slightly. So things like D-Drum sensors should trigger Roland Sounds using the TD-15. The 'sensitivity' of the trigger may need to be adjusted in the drum module though.
That is such a brilliant answer Niall, thank you so much! I have a follow up question if you don’t mind?
It’s likely I’m going to sell off the TD-15 to pay for most of the hybrid setup. The end sound is produced through reaper meaning I won’t need the presets within the module so I’ll replace the module with something, but do you know of any that would let me trigger as separate tracks rather than it all coming through on one track?
It’s not a big thing, but I do some stage shows that involve some odd assortments of songs and some might call for Congo in the verse and snare in the chorus, so i would (until now!) dial in toms as Congo’s and leave the snare as a snare. Triggering as individual tracks would mean I can use reaper to get better sounds in the same way.
With the cymbals, I’ve got some piezo’s at home from when I had to fix an old-old kit I had so I was going to have a play and try to make my own triggers! I’ll be using low volume cymbals rather than electric/standard for practice, but I’ll have a crack at wiring together some triggers for the cymbals to make recording a bit easier at home. Will probably blow something up, but....!
It’s likely I’m going to sell off the TD-15 to pay for most of the hybrid setup. The end sound is produced through reaper meaning I won’t need the presets within the module so I’ll replace the module with something, but do you know of any that would let me trigger as separate tracks rather than it all coming through on one track?
It’s not a big thing, but I do some stage shows that involve some odd assortments of songs and some might call for Congo in the verse and snare in the chorus, so i would (until now!) dial in toms as Congo’s and leave the snare as a snare. Triggering as individual tracks would mean I can use reaper to get better sounds in the same way.
With the cymbals, I’ve got some piezo’s at home from when I had to fix an old-old kit I had so I was going to have a play and try to make my own triggers! I’ll be using low volume cymbals rather than electric/standard for practice, but I’ll have a crack at wiring together some triggers for the cymbals to make recording a bit easier at home. Will probably blow something up, but....!
|https://thumbsnap.com/x77BDF6b[/url]Jonboy_t said:
That is such a brilliant answer Niall, thank you so much! I have a follow up question if you don’t mind?
It’s likely I’m going to sell off the TD-15 to pay for most of the hybrid setup. The end sound is produced through reaper meaning I won’t need the presets within the module so I’ll replace the module with something, but do you know of any that would let me trigger as separate tracks rather than it all coming through on one track?
It’s not a big thing, but I do some stage shows that involve some odd assortments of songs and some might call for Congo in the verse and snare in the chorus, so i would (until now!) dial in toms as Congo’s and leave the snare as a snare. Triggering as individual tracks would mean I can use reaper to get better sounds in the same way.
With the cymbals, I’ve got some piezo’s at home from when I had to fix an old-old kit I had so I was going to have a play and try to make my own triggers! I’ll be using low volume cymbals rather than electric/standard for practice, but I’ll have a crack at wiring together some triggers for the cymbals to make recording a bit easier at home. Will probably blow something up, but....!
I don't think this isn't really an issue with the trigger technology, any multi-input trigger will do this as the trigger unit will turn the multiple triggers into separate MIDI notes into EZDrummer. This is a question of set-up in Reaper (here's a useful video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ8rVgB8wzc) then there's a question of whether you want individual outputs to the outside world, for example to feed a PA desk with separate BD, Snr, Hi hat etc, or whether you just want to send a stereo signal to the PA and/or Monitors. If you just want to send stereo, then the mixer built into Reaper will allow you full control over the individual drum levels, pans and any other effects you want and all you need is a good 2 channel audio interface. If you want to send the separate drum signals to the PA, then this is an issue to do with the Audio Interface you're using and the number of channels it supports because for each drum signal you want to output, the audio interface will need a separate audio channel. So if for example you wanted to output BD, Snr, HiHat, Stereo Toms and Stereo Cymbals, you need at least 7 separate audio channels from the audio interface.It’s likely I’m going to sell off the TD-15 to pay for most of the hybrid setup. The end sound is produced through reaper meaning I won’t need the presets within the module so I’ll replace the module with something, but do you know of any that would let me trigger as separate tracks rather than it all coming through on one track?
It’s not a big thing, but I do some stage shows that involve some odd assortments of songs and some might call for Congo in the verse and snare in the chorus, so i would (until now!) dial in toms as Congo’s and leave the snare as a snare. Triggering as individual tracks would mean I can use reaper to get better sounds in the same way.
With the cymbals, I’ve got some piezo’s at home from when I had to fix an old-old kit I had so I was going to have a play and try to make my own triggers! I’ll be using low volume cymbals rather than electric/standard for practice, but I’ll have a crack at wiring together some triggers for the cymbals to make recording a bit easier at home. Will probably blow something up, but....!
Ideally you need a separate audio interface, rather than the one built into the computer, because typically these have much more effiicient software drivers, which mean lower latency and less timing issues. If you use a Windows PC and just use the inbuilt Windows audio, it's normally too slow to be useful live.
The piezo's will trigger most trigger modules, the challenge I found, having done something very similar to this about 25 years ago is to find a way to mount the triggers so that they don't fall off!!!
This D-Drum module looks a good value trigger to USB MIDI solution with a sensible number of inputs. https://www.gear4music.com/Drums-and-Percussion/DD...
niallf said:
I don't think this isn't really an issue with the trigger technology, any multi-input trigger will do this as the trigger unit will turn the multiple triggers into separate MIDI notes into EZDrummer. This is a question of set-up in Reaper (here's a useful video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ8rVgB8wzc) then there's a question of whether you want individual outputs to the outside world, for example to feed a PA desk with separate BD, Snr, Hi hat etc, or whether you just want to send a stereo signal to the PA and/or Monitors. If you just want to send stereo, then the mixer built into Reaper will allow you full control over the individual drum levels, pans and any other effects you want and all you need is a good 2 channel audio interface. If you want to send the separate drum signals to the PA, then this is an issue to do with the Audio Interface you're using and the number of channels it supports because for each drum signal you want to output, the audio interface will need a separate audio channel. So if for example you wanted to output BD, Snr, HiHat, Stereo Toms and Stereo Cymbals, you need at least 7 separate audio channels from the audio interface.
Ideally you need a separate audio interface, rather than the one built into the computer, because typically these have much more effiicient software drivers, which mean lower latency and less timing issues. If you use a Windows PC and just use the inbuilt Windows audio, it's normally too slow to be useful live.
The piezo's will trigger most trigger modules, the challenge I found, having done something very similar to this about 25 years ago is to find a way to mount the triggers so that they don't fall off!!!
This D-Drum module looks a good value trigger to USB MIDI solution with a sensible number of inputs. https://www.gear4music.com/Drums-and-Percussion/DD...
That’s exactly the module I was looking at! Ideally you need a separate audio interface, rather than the one built into the computer, because typically these have much more effiicient software drivers, which mean lower latency and less timing issues. If you use a Windows PC and just use the inbuilt Windows audio, it's normally too slow to be useful live.
The piezo's will trigger most trigger modules, the challenge I found, having done something very similar to this about 25 years ago is to find a way to mount the triggers so that they don't fall off!!!
This D-Drum module looks a good value trigger to USB MIDI solution with a sensible number of inputs. https://www.gear4music.com/Drums-and-Percussion/DD...
Honestly, can’t thank you enough for that advice. I’ve spent ages trawling forums and, as most people are already beyond my knowledge, the advice is that one step above what I need, but you’ve just cleared a lot up for me
Jonboy_t said:
sociopath said:
Nice! Where are you and how much are you looking at for it? Don't need it now I have a detached stone cottage.with massive thick walls
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