Discussion
Remember wheel-to-wheel action in Grand Prix ?
How do we get back to that if at all ? Rarely do we see 2 balanced cars. Sure there is driver variance as always, but now the car/tyres rule.
The most exciting part of a GP now is the start, even if 2 cars do get in a dice it is always one car that is obviously quicker trying to get past, once through he's gone.
[url]Gilles Villeneuve v Rene Arnoux|http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Duelo-G.-Villeneuve---R.-Arnoux[/url]
How do we get back to that if at all ? Rarely do we see 2 balanced cars. Sure there is driver variance as always, but now the car/tyres rule.
The most exciting part of a GP now is the start, even if 2 cars do get in a dice it is always one car that is obviously quicker trying to get past, once through he's gone.
[url]Gilles Villeneuve v Rene Arnoux|http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Duelo-G.-Villeneuve---R.-Arnoux[/url]
Wow that is a fantastic clip ! I grew up watching in the Mansell and Senna era which was great, so this was a bit before my time, but the racing is even better. Oh for the days when driver skill was more improtant than technology - bring back manual gear boxes, steel brakes, low downforce etc etc.
gshughes said:
Oh for the days when driver skill was more important than technology - bring back manual gear boxes, steel brakes, low downforce etc etc.
That's the only way you are ever going to return to properly enjoyable racing with plenty of overtaking. Unfortunately it has next to no chance of ever happening.[quote=gshughes]Wow that is a fantastic clip ! quote]
IMO this is what GP racing should be all about, a pale imitation now although much more technically advanced and faster. Do we want to place most emphasis on either the racing or the entertainment, it seems that we cannot always have both.
IMO this is what GP racing should be all about, a pale imitation now although much more technically advanced and faster. Do we want to place most emphasis on either the racing or the entertainment, it seems that we cannot always have both.
All of the above comments are perfectly true, for motor racing like this you need:
1. Low contact area between tire and road.
2. Negligible down force.
3. High car mass.
4. Lower powered/slower cars with more driver control.
5. Better track designs.
The last and first I feel are most crucial. The tracks all look the same now, no matter where you are in the world. When you watch Grand Prix racing it could be being broadcast from anywhere in the world. The tires are crucial in that when a car looses traction now the driver is severely punished in terms of time lost, this means that drivers are less willing to make lunges at the car ahead.
Perhaps also the cars now are to reliable, drivers can go at full stick throughout the race without much fear of the engine giving up the ghost. This was what was nice about turbo generation cars, if a small team wanted to make their car faster they just decrease the compression ratio and increase boost, this of course lead to some real racing as smaller teams jostled with larger teams keeping their fingers crossed that their engine would not blow due to increased boost pressure. It gave every one a chance to snatch at victory.
Slip streaming tended to work best on high speed banked circuits.
1. Low contact area between tire and road.
2. Negligible down force.
3. High car mass.
4. Lower powered/slower cars with more driver control.
5. Better track designs.
The last and first I feel are most crucial. The tracks all look the same now, no matter where you are in the world. When you watch Grand Prix racing it could be being broadcast from anywhere in the world. The tires are crucial in that when a car looses traction now the driver is severely punished in terms of time lost, this means that drivers are less willing to make lunges at the car ahead.
Perhaps also the cars now are to reliable, drivers can go at full stick throughout the race without much fear of the engine giving up the ghost. This was what was nice about turbo generation cars, if a small team wanted to make their car faster they just decrease the compression ratio and increase boost, this of course lead to some real racing as smaller teams jostled with larger teams keeping their fingers crossed that their engine would not blow due to increased boost pressure. It gave every one a chance to snatch at victory.
Slip streaming tended to work best on high speed banked circuits.
I liked Clarksons idea.....
Two championships in one.
1) Constructors build their cars to their spec within the rules.
2) Drivers draw lots to get a car.
3) Watch a great race where MS in a Minardi tries to get past kartakainen (!) in a williams !
Best driver / car combo wins.
I'll get me coat...................
Two championships in one.
1) Constructors build their cars to their spec within the rules.
2) Drivers draw lots to get a car.
3) Watch a great race where MS in a Minardi tries to get past kartakainen (!) in a williams !
Best driver / car combo wins.
I'll get me coat...................
veetwin said:
Simple really, watch Moto GP. Real racing with no driver aids. Scary stuff 215mph on two wheels!
I have started watching Moto GP recently and I completely agree, it is truly exciting racing.
The point raised about track design is a pertinent one, unfortunately it seems that the politics (read $) decide which race tracks host events, rather than any chance of a decent spectacle. F1 seems to be going more down the boxing route where it is organised more for the benefit of those on the "inner circle" rather than the paying public.
veetwin said:
Simple really, watch Moto GP. Real racing with no driver aids. Scary stuff 215mph on two wheels!
Yip always exciting racing but results are starting to get predicatable with Rossi usually playing with the rest until the closing lap(s).
Very good to see a different result at Laguna Seca though. Can young Hayden push on with HRC with his first win? Also good to see Edwards improving with the Yamaha.
That clip is awesome. Doesnt bear any resemblance to what Ive been watching on sundays for the last few years. I reckon most modern drivers would sh@t themselves if they had to drive like that.
We coluld always go back to drivers running over to thier cars to start - I always though that was pretty cool, if not pointless and dangerous.
We coluld always go back to drivers running over to thier cars to start - I always though that was pretty cool, if not pointless and dangerous.
Steel brakes? Nope, braking distances are no longer than with carbon.
Manual gearboxes? They are manual now, just with paddles. Where's the sense in putting the lever in an awkward place so they have to take a hand off the wheel? What has that got to do with driving? About as outdated as making them start the car with a handle on the front during each pit stop these days.
May as well force them to juggle 3 bananas whilst braking while you're at it.
Manual gearboxes? They are manual now, just with paddles. Where's the sense in putting the lever in an awkward place so they have to take a hand off the wheel? What has that got to do with driving? About as outdated as making them start the car with a handle on the front during each pit stop these days.
May as well force them to juggle 3 bananas whilst braking while you're at it.
veetwin said:
Simple really, watch Moto GP. Real racing with no driver aids. Scary stuff 215mph on two wheels!
Not absolutely true, as some teams are now running traction control, since the bikes are routinely putting out 240 - 250 bhp, and weigh only 145KG without the rider. Hence the top speeds higher than an F1 car at the same circuit, although the cars greater tyre contact patches and aero downforce, generating higher braking and cornering levels, result in quicker lap times.
Give me two wheels any day.
The reason MotoGP provides good racing is that mechanical grip is much higher than aerodynamic grip (none), which means the bikes can follow closely through fast corners. Also the tyres probably give up their grip more slowly as the slip angle increases so sliding around is a bit easier. F1 suffers because the cars have much more aerodynamic grip than mechanical, which makes it hard to follow through fast corners and because the tyres' grip drops off rapidly even at small slip angles which means the cars are very twitchy on the limit.
While I agree that's a fantastic clip (I'm assuming I know which one it is, didn't download)...it's the SAME one everybody always uses. Show us 14...15...16 races, ALL with action like that, from the SAME season, and then declare that 'racing was always better'.
Lesser contact patches, less aerodynamics etc. etc, give PistonHeads the rules to F1 and within 30mins you'd have soap box racing.
F1 is currently (just about) the pinnacle of motor racing. It should, also, stay that way. I don't think it will stay that way by devolution and retrograde steps. None of these steps will be truly good for the sport - even though that's what everyone claims is their intention.
While I agree that F1 has become less entertaining, if you are after entertainment, watch The Simpsons. F1 should be the best drivers in the world with the best cars in the world. It is just unfortunate that a product of this excellent has been less attractive racing.
Regardless of whether there's overtaking or not, I will still be watching F1 - it is, afterall, the pinnacle of motorsport.
Lesser contact patches, less aerodynamics etc. etc, give PistonHeads the rules to F1 and within 30mins you'd have soap box racing.
F1 is currently (just about) the pinnacle of motor racing. It should, also, stay that way. I don't think it will stay that way by devolution and retrograde steps. None of these steps will be truly good for the sport - even though that's what everyone claims is their intention.
While I agree that F1 has become less entertaining, if you are after entertainment, watch The Simpsons. F1 should be the best drivers in the world with the best cars in the world. It is just unfortunate that a product of this excellent has been less attractive racing.
Regardless of whether there's overtaking or not, I will still be watching F1 - it is, afterall, the pinnacle of motorsport.
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