Prejudice, stereotypes and cultural sensitivity
Discussion
I lived in Bavaria for a while in the 1980s. At that point there were plenty of older people that were alive during WW2. At the start of the war most people supported the Nazis/Hitler and the majority of people were also anti Semitic. When I met older Germans that was certainly in the back of my head. I think to some people I was being prejudiced/racist by having that in mind. Although of course Germans are not a race and I certainly wasn’t looking down on them. Just conscious that they were brought up in an era where racism and anti Semitism was the norm.
My father (who also fought in the war) was also a racist. Pretty standard at the time. I was mindful of that when speaking to his contemporaries.
Similarly, I know from surveys that attitudes towards women and LBGTQ+ in many parts of the world are very different from the UK.
If I met a Pakistani man for the first time would I be culturally sensitive to keep in the back of my mind that he might not share my liberal attitudes or would that be prejudiced/racist?
My father (who also fought in the war) was also a racist. Pretty standard at the time. I was mindful of that when speaking to his contemporaries.
Similarly, I know from surveys that attitudes towards women and LBGTQ+ in many parts of the world are very different from the UK.
If I met a Pakistani man for the first time would I be culturally sensitive to keep in the back of my mind that he might not share my liberal attitudes or would that be prejudiced/racist?
Esceptico said:
Similarly, I know from surveys that attitudes towards women and LBGTQ+ in many parts of the world
UK are very different from other parts of the UK.
If I met a Pakistani man for the first time would I be culturally sensitive to keep in the back of my mind that he might not share my liberal attitudes or would that be prejudiced/racist?
Minor correctionUK are very different from other parts of the UK.
If I met a Pakistani man for the first time would I be culturally sensitive to keep in the back of my mind that he might not share my liberal attitudes or would that be prejudiced/racist?
You are are a raging racist now go to the centre for mind cleansing & rid yourself of your evil thoughts & ways
Perhaps just stop over thinking things and take people as you find them?
It seems that half the time those who desperately want to push against one thing (racism in this case) end up so obsessed they discriminate against other people they think don't conform to their views, regardless of any proof.
Which is kind of the thing most of us who abhor isms are against.
Except hedonism. That seems like quite good fun.
It seems that half the time those who desperately want to push against one thing (racism in this case) end up so obsessed they discriminate against other people they think don't conform to their views, regardless of any proof.
Which is kind of the thing most of us who abhor isms are against.
Except hedonism. That seems like quite good fun.
The Germans are a race (well I think so) based on this definition:
standard wikipedia URL
Tricky question though. Attitudes in Pakistan could well be different. And being aware of those differences is being culturally aware (which is a good thing) and not racist (generally thought of as bad).
Apparently it's fine to be racist in some cases e.g. if you're Nicola Sturgeon talking about the English.
standard wikipedia URL
Tricky question though. Attitudes in Pakistan could well be different. And being aware of those differences is being culturally aware (which is a good thing) and not racist (generally thought of as bad).
Apparently it's fine to be racist in some cases e.g. if you're Nicola Sturgeon talking about the English.
Esceptico said:
My father (who also fought in the war) was also a racist. Pretty standard at the time. I was mindful of that when speaking to his contemporaries.
I'm sure your father thought a lot about you. On what side did your father risk his life in combat [ unlike you presumably ]
Minor details are important, like the detail of what this thread is actually about ?
EggsBenedict said:
The Germans are a race (well I think so) based on this definition:
standard wikipedia URL
Tricky question though. Attitudes in Pakistan could well be different. And being aware of those differences is being culturally aware (which is a good thing) and not racist (generally thought of as bad).
Apparently it's fine to be racist in some cases e.g. if you're Nicola Sturgeon talking about the English.
The link states that race is now generally seen as a social construct and not routed in biology. So Germans are a race if they self identify as one? standard wikipedia URL
Tricky question though. Attitudes in Pakistan could well be different. And being aware of those differences is being culturally aware (which is a good thing) and not racist (generally thought of as bad).
Apparently it's fine to be racist in some cases e.g. if you're Nicola Sturgeon talking about the English.
Where does being culturally sensitive end and racism start? When I’m speaking to Japanese people I’m aware that age matters much more in Japanese society than the U.K. (older people automatically due more respect, generally there is much less physical contact (bow rather than hug/shake hands/kiss cheeks) plus numerous other differences. However by Western standards Japanese society is sexist verging towards misogynistic - a female Japanese friend who was a university lecturer received death threats from a male student and rather than getting the police to lock him up she was reprimanded. Is it then racist to be culturally sensitive to such aspects too?
wildoliver said:
Perhaps just stop over thinking things and take people as you find them?
It seems that half the time those who desperately want to push against one thing (racism in this case) end up so obsessed they discriminate against other people they think don't conform to their views, regardless of any proof.
Which is kind of the thing most of us who abhor isms are against.
Except hedonism. That seems like quite good fun.
I’m not a cultural relativist. I don’t think all cultures are equal. Cultural beliefs that are based upon superstition or have no basis in fact and lead to discrimination or persecution of people are not something that I accept. Racism, sexism, homophobia and religious intolerance all fall into that category. It seems that half the time those who desperately want to push against one thing (racism in this case) end up so obsessed they discriminate against other people they think don't conform to their views, regardless of any proof.
Which is kind of the thing most of us who abhor isms are against.
Except hedonism. That seems like quite good fun.
Esceptico said:
The link states that race is now generally seen as a social construct and not routed in biology. So Germans are a race if they self identify as one?
Where does being culturally sensitive end and racism start? When I’m speaking to Japanese people I’m aware that age matters much more in Japanese society than the U.K. (older people automatically due more respect, generally there is much less physical contact (bow rather than hug/shake hands/kiss cheeks) plus numerous other differences. However by Western standards Japanese society is sexist verging towards misogynistic - a female Japanese friend who was a university lecturer received death threats from a male student and rather than getting the police to lock him up she was reprimanded. Is it then racist to be culturally sensitive to such aspects too?
the issue with your Japanese friend is a complex one. By Western standards her treatment is shameful - but by you imposing your values on the situation are you not guilty of 'cultural imperialism' or being a 'white saviour'? If you were truly enlightened wouldn't (shouldn't?) you accept that other cultures are different?Where does being culturally sensitive end and racism start? When I’m speaking to Japanese people I’m aware that age matters much more in Japanese society than the U.K. (older people automatically due more respect, generally there is much less physical contact (bow rather than hug/shake hands/kiss cheeks) plus numerous other differences. However by Western standards Japanese society is sexist verging towards misogynistic - a female Japanese friend who was a university lecturer received death threats from a male student and rather than getting the police to lock him up she was reprimanded. Is it then racist to be culturally sensitive to such aspects too?
As an aside you specifally mention Bavarians being anti-Semitic - the whole of Europe has, historically, been (rabidly) anti-Semitic. Sadly
irocfan said:
the issue with your Japanese friend is a complex one. By Western standards her treatment is shameful - but by you imposing your values on the situation are you not guilty of 'cultural imperialism' or being a 'white saviour'? If you were truly enlightened wouldn't (shouldn't?) you accept that other cultures are different?
As an aside you specifally mention Bavarians being anti-Semitic - the whole of Europe has, historically, been (rabidly) anti-Semitic. Sadly
As per my last post, I don’t subscribe to cultural relativism. Take homophobia as an example. There is no rational basis for homophobia so persecuting people for being gay involves hurting people that have done nothing wrong (and arguably have no influence upon - certainly I didn’t need to be “taught” or even had a choice about being sexually attracted to women). I don’t think I have to accept cultures that practice homophobia - it is not like accepting that you should take your shoes off in houses (again Japanese). As an aside you specifally mention Bavarians being anti-Semitic - the whole of Europe has, historically, been (rabidly) anti-Semitic. Sadly
Yes a lot of Europe - particularly Eastern Europe - has a history of anti semitism. The Nazis didn’t have problems finding volunteers in occupied Poland and other countries to help with their pogrom against the Jews.
Bavaria...the 1980s...the womb they crawled from is still going strong....
Oktoberfest bombing 1980, "lone wolf" of course, after 40 years (!) of prosecution with loads of doubts.
Shlomo Lewin RIP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uwe_Behrendt.....way before german unification,
german extreme nationalism and superiority amongst a minority were rife and had deadly consequences.
1982, neo nazi wing terrorist Oxner kills 3, maims 3 in Nuremberg Disco, kills himself
1984, "Ludwig Group" neo nazi terror crew assaults Munich night club , one woman dead, six severely burnt
1988, neo nazi Josef Saller burns down house in Schwandorf, 3 turkish and one german victims
Sometimes it just ain´t prejudice and stereotypes, it´s the dark side of idyllic villages and lederhosen.
After unification, the number of right wing terror victims varies between 100 and 200 depending who is counting what.
After lewin´s murder, police were very eager to find the killer in the jewish community.
During the 10-victim killing spree of "National Socialist Underground" which lasted 7 years,
police were very eager to find the killers in the families or surroundings of the victims ruling out neo nazi terror.
In the last months, almost every month another scandal popped up
with members of police, army, intelligence service and secret service sharing nazi propaganda stuff in social networks,
tens of thousands of ammo rounds and dozens of weapons being "lost", going to para-mil training camps abroad etc etc.
All focus on left and islamic extremism, all eyes that looked right were blind, or shut.
No, I don´t wear a "Proud to be German" patch like way too many young folks here do.
Oktoberfest bombing 1980, "lone wolf" of course, after 40 years (!) of prosecution with loads of doubts.
Shlomo Lewin RIP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uwe_Behrendt.....way before german unification,
german extreme nationalism and superiority amongst a minority were rife and had deadly consequences.
1982, neo nazi wing terrorist Oxner kills 3, maims 3 in Nuremberg Disco, kills himself
1984, "Ludwig Group" neo nazi terror crew assaults Munich night club , one woman dead, six severely burnt
1988, neo nazi Josef Saller burns down house in Schwandorf, 3 turkish and one german victims
Sometimes it just ain´t prejudice and stereotypes, it´s the dark side of idyllic villages and lederhosen.
After unification, the number of right wing terror victims varies between 100 and 200 depending who is counting what.
After lewin´s murder, police were very eager to find the killer in the jewish community.
During the 10-victim killing spree of "National Socialist Underground" which lasted 7 years,
police were very eager to find the killers in the families or surroundings of the victims ruling out neo nazi terror.
In the last months, almost every month another scandal popped up
with members of police, army, intelligence service and secret service sharing nazi propaganda stuff in social networks,
tens of thousands of ammo rounds and dozens of weapons being "lost", going to para-mil training camps abroad etc etc.
All focus on left and islamic extremism, all eyes that looked right were blind, or shut.
No, I don´t wear a "Proud to be German" patch like way too many young folks here do.
Esceptico said:
I lived in Bavaria for a while in the 1980s. At that point there were plenty of older people that were alive during WW2. At the start of the war most people supported the Nazis/Hitler and the majority of people were also anti Semitic. When I met older Germans that was certainly in the back of my head. I think to some people I was being prejudiced/racist by having that in mind. Although of course Germans are not a race and I certainly wasn’t looking down on them. Just conscious that they were brought up in an era where racism and anti Semitism was the norm.
My father (who also fought in the war) was also a racist. Pretty standard at the time. I was mindful of that when speaking to his contemporaries.
Similarly, I know from surveys that attitudes towards women and LBGTQ+ in many parts of the world are very different from the UK.
If I met a Pakistani man for the first time would I be culturally sensitive to keep in the back of my mind that he might not share my liberal attitudes or would that be prejudiced/racist?
My father (who also fought in the war) was also a racist. Pretty standard at the time. I was mindful of that when speaking to his contemporaries.
Similarly, I know from surveys that attitudes towards women and LBGTQ+ in many parts of the world are very different from the UK.
If I met a Pakistani man for the first time would I be culturally sensitive to keep in the back of my mind that he might not share my liberal attitudes or would that be prejudiced/racist?
Esceptico said:
As per my last post, I don’t subscribe to cultural relativism. Take homophobia as an example. There is no rational basis for homophobia so persecuting people for being gay involves hurting people that have done nothing wrong (and arguably have no influence upon - certainly I didn’t need to be “taught” or even had a choice about being sexually attracted to women). I don’t think I have to accept cultures that practice homophobia - it is not like accepting that you should take your shoes off in houses (again Japanese).
I don't think it's really something you can subscribe to or not.Let's take a Sharia-law based culture compared against our own as they would, I assume, meet your definitions of homophobia?
Well, they *know* that your values are wrong and theirs are correct, just as much as you *know* that they are wrong.
Cultural relativism is understanding that dichotomy, not accepting the values of others as your own.
Esceptico said:
EggsBenedict said:
The Germans are a race (well I think so) based on this definition:
standard wikipedia URL
Tricky question though. Attitudes in Pakistan could well be different. And being aware of those differences is being culturally aware (which is a good thing) and not racist (generally thought of as bad).
Apparently it's fine to be racist in some cases e.g. if you're Nicola Sturgeon talking about the English.
The link states that race is now generally seen as a social construct and not routed in biology. So Germans are a race if they self identify as one? standard wikipedia URL
Tricky question though. Attitudes in Pakistan could well be different. And being aware of those differences is being culturally aware (which is a good thing) and not racist (generally thought of as bad).
Apparently it's fine to be racist in some cases e.g. if you're Nicola Sturgeon talking about the English.
Where does being culturally sensitive end and racism start? When I’m speaking to Japanese people I’m aware that age matters much more in Japanese society than the U.K. (older people automatically due more respect, generally there is much less physical contact (bow rather than hug/shake hands/kiss cheeks) plus numerous other differences. However by Western standards Japanese society is sexist verging towards misogynistic - a female Japanese friend who was a university lecturer received death threats from a male student and rather than getting the police to lock him up she was reprimanded. Is it then racist to be culturally sensitive to such aspects too?
Disastrous said:
Esceptico said:
As per my last post, I don’t subscribe to cultural relativism. Take homophobia as an example. There is no rational basis for homophobia so persecuting people for being gay involves hurting people that have done nothing wrong (and arguably have no influence upon - certainly I didn’t need to be “taught” or even had a choice about being sexually attracted to women). I don’t think I have to accept cultures that practice homophobia - it is not like accepting that you should take your shoes off in houses (again Japanese).
I don't think it's really something you can subscribe to or not.Let's take a Sharia-law based culture compared against our own as they would, I assume, meet your definitions of homophobia?
Well, they *know* that your values are wrong and theirs are correct, just as much as you *know* that they are wrong.
Cultural relativism is understanding that dichotomy, not accepting the values of others as your own.
To the extent that cultural values are based on superstition and irrational beliefs then it seems possible to compare cultures and show some are “superior” to others. That won’t work for all aspects of culture eg individualism vs collectivism but can apply in lots of cases. Any culture based upon religious scripture is hard to defend as no evidence to support existence of God (compared to voluminous evidence and logic for there being no God).
98elise said:
Given that a race can be defined by what sort of accomodation you live in (Travellers), then anything can define a race. You don't even need to be of that race, you can identify as one.
The concept of Race, at least in practice for most people, is tied up with physical appearance/skin colour. Culturally my wife is very much British. Perhaps more so than me (which is why she only reluctantly allows me to drag her off to live in other countries) yet many would label her as Indian based solely on how she looks.By looks and accent I would be labelled as English yet I’ve lived in four other countries and have incorporated various parts of those cultures into my outlook (here in NZ I’ve forgotten what it is like to where long trousers and my swearing has got really bad - clearly I’ve embraced my inner Kiwi!). Although when I’ve just brewed my nth cup of (builder’s) tea my wife often comments that I’m “so English” so what do I know.
Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff