Creaking noise and extra heat from one wheel
Discussion
Hi folks - I've been trying and failing to diagnose an issue, widening my search beyond the Lexus community in the hope that others experience can help me!
A little while ago my car started making a fairly unpleasant creaking/screeching noise, only when steering slightly right at low speeds and only when the car was up to temperature. I have a video of the noise here (you'll need to un-mute the video to hear it):
https://imgur.com/LHUCbeN
I ended up replacing the front nearside bearing as I'd got it into my head that was the issue - however it didn't resolve anything. I noticed more recently that same wheel is generating a lot more heat than the other wheels - my assumption is that this isn't a new symptom, simply one I hadn't noticed before, and perhaps why there's a relationship with the car getting up to temperature and the noise (i.e. wheel gets hot, then makes horrible noise) - the new bearing is a little stiffer than the other one but I don't think stiff enough to be generating heat.
Given the heat I assume friction, which gives us an obvious candidate of the brakes. So I check that caliper and unexpectedly find a guide pin that's almost completely seized (unexpected because I did the brakes less than a year ago). At this point I assumed I found the problem, however having replaced the pin and getting the hole nice and greasy the problem hasn't gone away...
When I did the pin I didn't notice the caliper itself sticking - but that's something I'm going to have to inspect in more detail along with a fresh brake bleed. The outermost brake pad has some discoloration to it, it looks a bit like it might have overheated but I dont have enough experience with overheating pads to say definitely (wish I took a photo).
I've just ordered an infrared thermometer so I can pinpoint the epicenter of the heat - just to confirm it's definitely the brakes.
The thing that still throws me off a bit is that the screeching noise only occurs when turning slightly - if the brakes were dragging I'm not sure why that would happen? I have observed that when listening very very closely, even when the car is cold you can hear what I think is the same noise but extremely faintly - only noticeable because I know what to listen for.
So we have a lot of heat and a weird noise, the brakes work ok, no pulling etc. I can't see any scoring or oddness on the disc - and the discs and pads were changed less than a year ago. Only happens when turning slightly right at low speeds.
Some people have suggested steering column or ball joints for the noise - I'm running on the assumption that the heat is related and so don't feel these are likely - but there's a chance it's unrelated - or even something I introduced with the bearing change!
I'm at the point where I'm going to have to take it to a mechanic, as I'm running out of things to try and inspect!
Edit: Forgot to mention, just in case it's important, this is a 2005 Lexus IS300
A little while ago my car started making a fairly unpleasant creaking/screeching noise, only when steering slightly right at low speeds and only when the car was up to temperature. I have a video of the noise here (you'll need to un-mute the video to hear it):
https://imgur.com/LHUCbeN
I ended up replacing the front nearside bearing as I'd got it into my head that was the issue - however it didn't resolve anything. I noticed more recently that same wheel is generating a lot more heat than the other wheels - my assumption is that this isn't a new symptom, simply one I hadn't noticed before, and perhaps why there's a relationship with the car getting up to temperature and the noise (i.e. wheel gets hot, then makes horrible noise) - the new bearing is a little stiffer than the other one but I don't think stiff enough to be generating heat.
Given the heat I assume friction, which gives us an obvious candidate of the brakes. So I check that caliper and unexpectedly find a guide pin that's almost completely seized (unexpected because I did the brakes less than a year ago). At this point I assumed I found the problem, however having replaced the pin and getting the hole nice and greasy the problem hasn't gone away...
When I did the pin I didn't notice the caliper itself sticking - but that's something I'm going to have to inspect in more detail along with a fresh brake bleed. The outermost brake pad has some discoloration to it, it looks a bit like it might have overheated but I dont have enough experience with overheating pads to say definitely (wish I took a photo).
I've just ordered an infrared thermometer so I can pinpoint the epicenter of the heat - just to confirm it's definitely the brakes.
The thing that still throws me off a bit is that the screeching noise only occurs when turning slightly - if the brakes were dragging I'm not sure why that would happen? I have observed that when listening very very closely, even when the car is cold you can hear what I think is the same noise but extremely faintly - only noticeable because I know what to listen for.
So we have a lot of heat and a weird noise, the brakes work ok, no pulling etc. I can't see any scoring or oddness on the disc - and the discs and pads were changed less than a year ago. Only happens when turning slightly right at low speeds.
Some people have suggested steering column or ball joints for the noise - I'm running on the assumption that the heat is related and so don't feel these are likely - but there's a chance it's unrelated - or even something I introduced with the bearing change!
I'm at the point where I'm going to have to take it to a mechanic, as I'm running out of things to try and inspect!
Edit: Forgot to mention, just in case it's important, this is a 2005 Lexus IS300
Edited by bsundays on Wednesday 19th May 12:53
Edited by bsundays on Wednesday 19th May 13:18
Edited by bsundays on Wednesday 19th May 13:19
If it's pad squeal that could be provoked or cured by tiny changes in anything connected to the hub. The extra heating from this corner suggests the brakes are dragging, and that's definitely a problem. The problem could be in the caliper itself, or the slider pins, or the brake line. I wouldn't expect the bearings to make any difference asince any bearing flex would simply push the pads back if there were no other problems.
You mentioned the line - that wasn't something I'd considered - I suppose a blockage or similar could cause brake dragging? Any tips on diagnosing line issues would be helpful.
Did you listen to the audio by the way? I don't know if it is definitely pad noise - at least not typical pad squeal.
I think I'm going to try and swap a new caliper on to see if it helps - not the most expensive or difficult job and I can do a good bleed at the same time - hopefully see if there's any issue in the line at the same time.
I feel like at that point I'll have replaced enough that if it's still doing it I'll have significantly narrowed it down....
Did you listen to the audio by the way? I don't know if it is definitely pad noise - at least not typical pad squeal.
I think I'm going to try and swap a new caliper on to see if it helps - not the most expensive or difficult job and I can do a good bleed at the same time - hopefully see if there's any issue in the line at the same time.
I feel like at that point I'll have replaced enough that if it's still doing it I'll have significantly narrowed it down....
Edited by bsundays on Wednesday 19th May 12:55
bsundays said:
You mentioned the line - that wasn't something I'd considered - I suppose a blockage or similar could cause brake dragging? Any tips on diagnosing line issues would be helpful.
Did you listen to the audio by the way? I don't know if it is definitely pad noise - at least not typical pad squeal.
I think I'm going to try and swap a new caliper on to see if it helps - not the most expensive or difficult job and I can do a good bleed at the same time - hopefully see if there's any issue in the line at the same time.
I feel like at that point I'll have replaced enough that if it's still doing it I'll have significantly narrowed it down....
FYI your video link is not workingDid you listen to the audio by the way? I don't know if it is definitely pad noise - at least not typical pad squeal.
I think I'm going to try and swap a new caliper on to see if it helps - not the most expensive or difficult job and I can do a good bleed at the same time - hopefully see if there's any issue in the line at the same time.
I feel like at that point I'll have replaced enough that if it's still doing it I'll have significantly narrowed it down....
Edited by bsundays on Wednesday 19th May 12:55
Thanks, that's helpful (you start to question reality itself after a while)
The caliper carrier is firmly attached to the knuckle, and the hub is firmly seated in it, torqued down and recently replaced - no movement there. Disc is flush with the hub and there's no movement I can feel in the wheel when it's jacked up. Everything feels solid.
The caliper carrier is firmly attached to the knuckle, and the hub is firmly seated in it, torqued down and recently replaced - no movement there. Disc is flush with the hub and there's no movement I can feel in the wheel when it's jacked up. Everything feels solid.
bsundays said:
Thanks, that's helpful (you start to question reality itself after a while)
The caliper carrier is firmly attached to the knuckle, and the hub is firmly seated in it, torqued down and recently replaced - no movement there. Disc is flush with the hub and there's no movement I can feel in the wheel when it's jacked up. Everything feels solid.
Agreed, you start to question yourself... got a clunk in mine offside front no one else seems to be able to hear, nothing obvious on inspection so just waiting on it to break more so I can workout what the hell it isThe caliper carrier is firmly attached to the knuckle, and the hub is firmly seated in it, torqued down and recently replaced - no movement there. Disc is flush with the hub and there's no movement I can feel in the wheel when it's jacked up. Everything feels solid.
Sounds like you've checked for play in the brakes and hub fairly well.. id get the wheel off and just make sure there is no side to side movement in the disk if you've not done already
When shes jacked up, wheel off can you percieve anything odd/movement if an assistant turns the wheel?
Thanks I'll have a good fiddle see if I can detect any movement - I ideally want to inspect it when it's hot too as I suspect it'll be easier to see where the issue is as that's when it's at its worst. I probably won't be able to do this until the weekend now.
I'll probably swap on a new caliper and do a bleed at the same time - with any luck that helps.
As I replaced the seized guide pin and I haven't really noticed any before/after difference it does make me think there must be something seized in the caliper - or something very not right about how the assembly is seated - as I feel that should have made a notable difference.
I'll probably swap on a new caliper and do a bleed at the same time - with any luck that helps.
As I replaced the seized guide pin and I haven't really noticed any before/after difference it does make me think there must be something seized in the caliper - or something very not right about how the assembly is seated - as I feel that should have made a notable difference.
bsundays said:
I suppose a blockage or similar could cause brake dragging?
There's a failure mode where the inner lining delaminates and forms a sort of flap valve which keeps pressure in the line. It seems pretty unlikely, but apparently happens often enough to be a recognised problem. You would suspect this type of problem if you have dragging brakes on just one corner, and have ruled out mechanical causes.GreenV8S said:
bsundays said:
I suppose a blockage or similar could cause brake dragging?
There's a failure mode where the inner lining delaminates and forms a sort of flap valve which keeps pressure in the line. It seems pretty unlikely, but apparently happens often enough to be a recognised problem. You would suspect this type of problem if you have dragging brakes on just one corner, and have ruled out mechanical causes.It won't rule caliper or hub etc out, and it won't confirm it is definitely the hose, but it can certainly confirm if it is hydraulic related or not.
rustednut said:
Put a hose clamp on the hose, and go for a short, cautious, drive and see if the issue occurs when pipe is clamped off ?
It won't rule caliper or hub etc out, and it won't confirm it is definitely the hose, but it can certainly confirm if it is hydraulic related or not.
For fIt won't rule caliper or hub etc out, and it won't confirm it is definitely the hose, but it can certainly confirm if it is hydraulic related or not.
ks sake don't ever do this, Jesus Christ.If it's beyond diagnosis take it to a garage, not start pinching brake lines. You even say this will do basically naff all to narrow it down.
It sounds like a failed hose that's applying the brake when flexed by turning.
bsundays said:
the new bearing is a little stiffer than the other one but I don't think stiff enough to be generating heat.
So I check that caliper and unexpectedly find a guide pin that's almost completely seized (unexpected because I did the brakes less than a year ago).
New bearings are always stiffer than used ones, and for a car wheel bearing isn't a concern unless you couldn't turn it by hand.So I check that caliper and unexpectedly find a guide pin that's almost completely seized (unexpected because I did the brakes less than a year ago).
In mechanical failure root cause analysis a common fallacy is "it can't be that I just fixed it".
If it's the hose maybe it got damaged or the extra flexing/movement caused it to fail.
Edited by Pastie Bloater on Sunday 23 May 19:30
Haha I did not pinch any brake lines you'll be glad to hear.
There was still an issue with the guide pin, namely it being 10mm too long as the one supplied with the new caliper isn't the same as the original ...
Anyway got that sorted and the binding has stopped - so the pin was the source of the issue all along - I just introduced a new problem with the same outcome as the problem I just fixed.
There was still an issue with the guide pin, namely it being 10mm too long as the one supplied with the new caliper isn't the same as the original ...
Anyway got that sorted and the binding has stopped - so the pin was the source of the issue all along - I just introduced a new problem with the same outcome as the problem I just fixed.
bsundays said:
Haha I did not pinch any brake lines you'll be glad to hear.
There was still an issue with the guide pin, namely it being 10mm too long as the one supplied with the new caliper isn't the same as the original ...
Anyway got that sorted and the binding has stopped - so the pin was the source of the issue all along - I just introduced a new problem with the same outcome as the problem I just fixed.
Glad you got it sorted, but don't really understand how the length of the pin caused the issue, unless it was fouling something, and that should have been noticed maybe ?There was still an issue with the guide pin, namely it being 10mm too long as the one supplied with the new caliper isn't the same as the original ...
Anyway got that sorted and the binding has stopped - so the pin was the source of the issue all along - I just introduced a new problem with the same outcome as the problem I just fixed.
Pastie Bloater said:
rustednut said:
Put a hose clamp on the hose, and go for a short, cautious, drive and see if the issue occurs when pipe is clamped off ?
It won't rule caliper or hub etc out, and it won't confirm it is definitely the hose, but it can certainly confirm if it is hydraulic related or not.
For fIt won't rule caliper or hub etc out, and it won't confirm it is definitely the hose, but it can certainly confirm if it is hydraulic related or not.
ks sake don't ever do this, Jesus Christ.If it's beyond diagnosis take it to a garage, not start pinching brake lines. You even say this will do basically naff all to narrow it down.
It sounds like a failed hose that's applying the brake when flexed by turning.
Calm down man
It can and does help with diagnosis with problems such as this.
rustednut said:
Glad you got it sorted, but don't really understand how the length of the pin caused the issue, unless it was fouling something, and that should have been noticed maybe ?
Because it prevents the caliper from being able to get enough slack on the outside of the disc - so the pad on that side was in constant contact - if the pad had been any newer I wouldn't have been able to get the caliper on at all and would have noticed, it was flush enough that I didn't pick up on it when I reassembled everything the first time round.bsundays said:
Haha I did not pinch any brake lines you'll be glad to hear.
There was still an issue with the guide pin, namely it being 10mm too long as the one supplied with the new caliper isn't the same as the original ...
Anyway got that sorted and the binding has stopped - so the pin was the source of the issue all along - I just introduced a new problem with the same outcome as the problem I just fixed.
Ohh ok that makes sense, I was struggling to visualise it but I'm used to doing brakes where the guide pins stick out the back not into the bracket.There was still an issue with the guide pin, namely it being 10mm too long as the one supplied with the new caliper isn't the same as the original ...
Anyway got that sorted and the binding has stopped - so the pin was the source of the issue all along - I just introduced a new problem with the same outcome as the problem I just fixed.
Edited by Pastie Bloater on Sunday 23 May 21:47
Suspect there will be lots of issues arising with not only seized sliders (of all types) but also pistons seizing in their bores, exacerbated by so many cars not covering so many miles during the late spring and summer rains due to the nations 2020 first house arrest, hence winter salt left in place to do its worse.
So many people don't wash their cars undersides frequently enough during the salt season, and most cars never see proper brake servicing anyway, peering intently at brakes and squirting brake cleaner about is not brake servicing.
When you have the pads out for any reason, unless the piston slides back in with minimal pressure first time it's worth exercising the piston(s) in it's/their bores to make sure everything is sliding freely, especially applicable to Japanese cars which need full and proper brake strip clean lube at least every other year in my humble, changed the front calipers on my Landcruiser this year despite regular proper servicing but 16 years wasn't bad going from the first set and its same one of the 4 pistons in each caliper that seizes every time.
one other thing, easily overlooked too, if your calipers design has sprung stainless steel fittings that clip in place (anti rattle clips in daigram above) so the edges of the pad backing plates sit against those clips and not rub against the caliper itself...then sometimes you get a build up of crud/corrision between caliper and clip, so ping those clips off and give them and the caliper where they sit a good scraping and wire brushing, invariably you'll find the pads much easier to fit after this.
So many people don't wash their cars undersides frequently enough during the salt season, and most cars never see proper brake servicing anyway, peering intently at brakes and squirting brake cleaner about is not brake servicing.
When you have the pads out for any reason, unless the piston slides back in with minimal pressure first time it's worth exercising the piston(s) in it's/their bores to make sure everything is sliding freely, especially applicable to Japanese cars which need full and proper brake strip clean lube at least every other year in my humble, changed the front calipers on my Landcruiser this year despite regular proper servicing but 16 years wasn't bad going from the first set and its same one of the 4 pistons in each caliper that seizes every time.
Edited by Smint on Monday 24th May 06:29
one other thing, easily overlooked too, if your calipers design has sprung stainless steel fittings that clip in place (anti rattle clips in daigram above) so the edges of the pad backing plates sit against those clips and not rub against the caliper itself...then sometimes you get a build up of crud/corrision between caliper and clip, so ping those clips off and give them and the caliper where they sit a good scraping and wire brushing, invariably you'll find the pads much easier to fit after this.
Edited by Smint on Monday 24th May 08:01
Edited by Smint on Monday 24th May 09:36
Yea no doubt it will have been because of how little I drove it earlier this year - looks almost like a solid gunk after closer inspection than rust, though - almost like the wrong lube was used - or its degraded in some way. Maybe just dirt mixing with the grease.
Either way the front bearing on the other side has a little movement so I'll get that done too - wouldn't have noticed that for a while - I don't think any of this will have been wasted work and it's good experience for the next time something similar happens!
My fuel economy has improved dramatically lol
Either way the front bearing on the other side has a little movement so I'll get that done too - wouldn't have noticed that for a while - I don't think any of this will have been wasted work and it's good experience for the next time something similar happens!
My fuel economy has improved dramatically lol
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