Staff Vaccinations - Staff avoiding jab
Discussion
Afternoon,
We have a relatively small team, up to 20ppl or so.
Anyway, as of last week all but 2 have had vaccinations - something that I am very happy about as COVID hasn't been kind to us. We've been busy, but we had an outbreak at Christmas which was very stressful and tested my resolve.
Anyway... I originally thought the two that hadn't been jabbed were all for it (like everybody else). However, now they have both had multiple opportunities to have a jab its clear they are against the idea and are actively dodging it.
Ive heard a few comments in the workplace, all along the lines of, "I understand they have their own personal reasons for not having it, albeit unsubstantiated claims with no proof. But what about the rest of the team? Do they not have a responsibility to have it for everybody's sake?"
I clearly want to have all of my staff vaccinated ASAP and find it somewhat annoying that said members of staff are avoiding the jab - yet also made a fuss and were terrified of getting COVID when it was at its peak!
Now, I havent got involved yet - but just wondered if anybody else has experienced similar?
Cheers.
We have a relatively small team, up to 20ppl or so.
Anyway, as of last week all but 2 have had vaccinations - something that I am very happy about as COVID hasn't been kind to us. We've been busy, but we had an outbreak at Christmas which was very stressful and tested my resolve.
Anyway... I originally thought the two that hadn't been jabbed were all for it (like everybody else). However, now they have both had multiple opportunities to have a jab its clear they are against the idea and are actively dodging it.
Ive heard a few comments in the workplace, all along the lines of, "I understand they have their own personal reasons for not having it, albeit unsubstantiated claims with no proof. But what about the rest of the team? Do they not have a responsibility to have it for everybody's sake?"
I clearly want to have all of my staff vaccinated ASAP and find it somewhat annoying that said members of staff are avoiding the jab - yet also made a fuss and were terrified of getting COVID when it was at its peak!
Now, I havent got involved yet - but just wondered if anybody else has experienced similar?
Cheers.
Bit of a minefield
If the job necessitates it, such as care work , NHS, Schools etc I can see the argument but if it is from a business operations POV it is difficult to justify. I guess you argue you want to keep customers and staff safe
We had a similar debate, my opinion is there isn't really anything you can do and wait for official Gov guidance
As with anything HR related it soon becomes a wormhole of time and despair
If the job necessitates it, such as care work , NHS, Schools etc I can see the argument but if it is from a business operations POV it is difficult to justify. I guess you argue you want to keep customers and staff safe
We had a similar debate, my opinion is there isn't really anything you can do and wait for official Gov guidance
As with anything HR related it soon becomes a wormhole of time and despair
My wife is Director of People at an IT company. She has recently rolled out their Covid documentation. It records all staff vaccines OR the lack of within the various age bands, i.e has it been made available. Anyone not getting the jab is asked if they intend to and are encouraged to do so. Presently, a decision has not been made on what they will do about the 1-2% who refuse. They are waiting on some legal framework to be put in place OR some case law. The view being that if they don't have a valid heath reason then if legal they will dismiss them if they are needed in the office.
Also any new joiners must be vaccinated to be offered a contract-entirely legal
Also any new joiners must be vaccinated to be offered a contract-entirely legal
russy01 said:
I clearly want to have all of my staff vaccinated ASAP and find it somewhat annoying that said members of staff are avoiding the jab - yet also made a fuss and were terrified of getting COVID when it was at its peak!
What exactly are you trying to achieve ? (remember that 100% jabbed is not equal to 100% safe anyway)If 18/20 are vaccinated, then that seems pretty good to me.
(And unless you run a care home, I don't think you should strongarm people into getting the jab if they are happy to assess their own risk and determine that they are comfortable without being jabbed.)
Try and set out your reasons for wanting 100% of your employees vaccinated and see if they make sense. I bet that when you try to write them down, it's less compelling than you think.
Your wife's firm might need to check the legal status of forcing employees to declare health data, as I thought health data was in the 'special category' of data and is was up to the employee whether to share or not...not for the employer to 'force' it out of them.
However, I'd be happier knowing my colleague are vaccinated, and the employer has to weigh up the individual employee's rights against the public health regulations for the whole workforce.
One of my clients is trying to cajole its employees to consider the jab when it's available to them, and also to consider staying WFH until they have had the jab...as fully vaccinated employees will have the opportunity to come back to the office at an earlier date than non-vaccinated employees.
Bit of a minefield really
The ICO said:
The collection of this information must not result in any unfair or unjustified treatment of employees and should only be used for purposes they would reasonably expect. You should treat staff fairly and if the collection of this information is likely to have a negative consequence for an employee, you must be able to justify it. When considering fairness, you should remember that different people are offered the vaccine at different times and some people may not yet have been offered a vaccination.
If the use of this data is likely to result in a high risk to individuals (eg denial of employment opportunities) then you need to complete a data protection impact assessment.
https://ico.org.uk/global/data-protection-and-coronavirus-information-hub/coronavirus-recovery-data-protection-advice-for-organisations/vaccinations/#collectIf the use of this data is likely to result in a high risk to individuals (eg denial of employment opportunities) then you need to complete a data protection impact assessment.
However, I'd be happier knowing my colleague are vaccinated, and the employer has to weigh up the individual employee's rights against the public health regulations for the whole workforce.
One of my clients is trying to cajole its employees to consider the jab when it's available to them, and also to consider staying WFH until they have had the jab...as fully vaccinated employees will have the opportunity to come back to the office at an earlier date than non-vaccinated employees.
Bit of a minefield really
Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 25th May 13:59
fat80b said:
What exactly are you trying to achieve ? (remember that 100% jabbed is not equal to 100% safe anyway)
If 18/20 are vaccinated, then that seems pretty good to me.
(And unless you run a care home, I don't think you should strongarm people into getting the jab if they are happy to assess their own risk and determine that they are comfortable without being jabbed.)
Try and set out your reasons for wanting 100% of your employees vaccinated and see if they make sense. I bet that when you try to write them down, it's less compelling than you think.
I am trying to achieve the highest number possible. I am not massively concerned myself, as I can sit back and analyse the risks like you say. But not everybody works like that - some people (i.e other staff) will create a divide over anything as you already know. If 18/20 are vaccinated, then that seems pretty good to me.
(And unless you run a care home, I don't think you should strongarm people into getting the jab if they are happy to assess their own risk and determine that they are comfortable without being jabbed.)
Try and set out your reasons for wanting 100% of your employees vaccinated and see if they make sense. I bet that when you try to write them down, it's less compelling than you think.
What probably annoys me the most is how they reacted at first, i.e wanted and had special treatment above others due to exaggerated personal circumstances. Then when the time comes to have a jab they've changed their tune entirely.
russy01 said:
fat80b said:
What exactly are you trying to achieve ? (remember that 100% jabbed is not equal to 100% safe anyway)
If 18/20 are vaccinated, then that seems pretty good to me.
(And unless you run a care home, I don't think you should strongarm people into getting the jab if they are happy to assess their own risk and determine that they are comfortable without being jabbed.)
Try and set out your reasons for wanting 100% of your employees vaccinated and see if they make sense. I bet that when you try to write them down, it's less compelling than you think.
I am trying to achieve the highest number possible. I am not massively concerned myself, as I can sit back and analyse the risks like you say. But not everybody works like that - some people (i.e other staff) will create a divide over anything as you already know. If 18/20 are vaccinated, then that seems pretty good to me.
(And unless you run a care home, I don't think you should strongarm people into getting the jab if they are happy to assess their own risk and determine that they are comfortable without being jabbed.)
Try and set out your reasons for wanting 100% of your employees vaccinated and see if they make sense. I bet that when you try to write them down, it's less compelling than you think.
What probably annoys me the most is how they reacted at first, i.e wanted and had special treatment above others due to exaggerated personal circumstances. Then when the time comes to have a jab they've changed their tune entirely.
I understand the jab hasn't (yet) been proven to stop transmission, nor does it stop you catching it, nor does it stop one (jabbed or unjabbed) having to isolate if they catch it. It just lowers your chance of being seriously ill if you do catch it (which don't get me wrong, is a great thing) - so why the need for them to have it if they don't want to, are they vulnerable?
If you pressure them, into taking a certain course of action, and they subsequently have complications, they WILL sue your arse off.
By pressure, I mean,
1) peer pressure
2) discussions about their future in the company.
3) asking for medical data
4) getting lawyers in to see if you can force them.
Because YOU forced them. It's okay saying it's optional, you'd like them to but it's thier decision, but if any statement you made looks like coercion, then you would be screwed.
If 90% are vaccinated, then they are safe from the other 10% ( within reason ). As safe as they are from people they will meet in pubs and bars once everything starts to open up again. Probably. So what's the issue ? Customers? Well, everyone over 32 can get a vaccine so that's their problem.
On the other hand, sack them for being Muppets.
By pressure, I mean,
1) peer pressure
2) discussions about their future in the company.
3) asking for medical data
4) getting lawyers in to see if you can force them.
Because YOU forced them. It's okay saying it's optional, you'd like them to but it's thier decision, but if any statement you made looks like coercion, then you would be screwed.
If 90% are vaccinated, then they are safe from the other 10% ( within reason ). As safe as they are from people they will meet in pubs and bars once everything starts to open up again. Probably. So what's the issue ? Customers? Well, everyone over 32 can get a vaccine so that's their problem.
On the other hand, sack them for being Muppets.
Burwood said:
no one is forcing employees and yes, it's all been reviewed/signed off by employment lawyers.
...but they want legislation or somebody else to take it through the courts before they start dismissing people? Doesn't sound like they are that confident in being able to fire people. There are different legal opinions available on the matter that suggests it would not be a clear cut case. Our UK office have taken a view based on legal advice that at present it is a potential issue even to request vaccination status, as nobody can be forced to tell you. In the office I run, I will not express any opinion on the vaccine. We make it available to those that want it (non-UK so we can do this), but aside from confirming I have taken a vaccine, express no opinion on it as it is a personal choice.
Good discussion this and nice to see the other viewpoints.
So you know, I am not going to force anybody - I am not in the position to do so. However I will likely question their decision, so I at least have all the facts at my disposal incase I need to fire fight any spats.
Im not going to discuss the individual personal circumstances in detail, however I will say that from what I have read and heard they are not classified as vulnerable at all. Like a lot of things nowadays you could trace it back to social media, i.e a person or group of people spouting their crap on Facebook - with some readers clearly taking it as gospel!
So you know, I am not going to force anybody - I am not in the position to do so. However I will likely question their decision, so I at least have all the facts at my disposal incase I need to fire fight any spats.
Im not going to discuss the individual personal circumstances in detail, however I will say that from what I have read and heard they are not classified as vulnerable at all. Like a lot of things nowadays you could trace it back to social media, i.e a person or group of people spouting their crap on Facebook - with some readers clearly taking it as gospel!
Muzzer79 said:
There'll always be the tin-hat brigade who don't want to have it.
.
Or maybe they don't want to be vaccinated until the full effects of said vaccine have been fully understood over a period of time?.
Besides the fact that as mentioned above, vaccination doesn't prevent transmission, therefore why worry if 80% of your staff have had the jab?
russy01 said:
Afternoon,
We have a relatively small team, up to 20ppl or so.
Anyway, as of last week all but 2 have had vaccinations - something that I am very happy about as COVID hasn't been kind to us. We've been busy, but we had an outbreak at Christmas which was very stressful and tested my resolve.
Anyway... I originally thought the two that hadn't been jabbed were all for it (like everybody else). However, now they have both had multiple opportunities to have a jab its clear they are against the idea and are actively dodging it.
Ive heard a few comments in the workplace, all along the lines of, "I understand they have their own personal reasons for not having it, albeit unsubstantiated claims with no proof. But what about the rest of the team? Do they not have a responsibility to have it for everybody's sake?"
I clearly want to have all of my staff vaccinated ASAP and find it somewhat annoying that said members of staff are avoiding the jab - yet also made a fuss and were terrified of getting COVID when it was at its peak!
Now, I havent got involved yet - but just wondered if anybody else has experienced similar?
Cheers.
People under 50 have pretty much nothing to worry about and surely almost everyone over 50 will be jabbed by now so the risk is small and getting smaller. Imho just leave it and move on as surely getting jabbed is and should be a choice.We have a relatively small team, up to 20ppl or so.
Anyway, as of last week all but 2 have had vaccinations - something that I am very happy about as COVID hasn't been kind to us. We've been busy, but we had an outbreak at Christmas which was very stressful and tested my resolve.
Anyway... I originally thought the two that hadn't been jabbed were all for it (like everybody else). However, now they have both had multiple opportunities to have a jab its clear they are against the idea and are actively dodging it.
Ive heard a few comments in the workplace, all along the lines of, "I understand they have their own personal reasons for not having it, albeit unsubstantiated claims with no proof. But what about the rest of the team? Do they not have a responsibility to have it for everybody's sake?"
I clearly want to have all of my staff vaccinated ASAP and find it somewhat annoying that said members of staff are avoiding the jab - yet also made a fuss and were terrified of getting COVID when it was at its peak!
Now, I havent got involved yet - but just wondered if anybody else has experienced similar?
Cheers.
TX.
russy01 said:
So you know, I am not going to force anybody - I am not in the position to do so. However I will likely question their decision, so I at least have all the facts at my disposal incase I need to fire fight any spats.
Why are you going to question their decision?As an employer, someone's decision concerning whether they take a vaccine is none of your business (yet)
Leave it alone I say.
Pit Pony said:
If 90% are vaccinated, then they are safe from the other 10% ( within reason ). As safe as they are from people they will meet in pubs and bars once everything starts to open up again. Probably. So what's the issue ?
The issue is that as a business owner you are obliged to protect the best interests of the company as well as the people who work there.Covid has the propensity to take someone out of work for a period of time - at least two weeks and sometimes longer. This can have negative impacts on productivity, profitability and the well-being of others who have to work harder to take up the slack caused by the person / people off sick.
This of course applies regardless of Covid but Covid is additional to things like flu, colds, bad backs and the like. But the vaccine provides a very good mitigation against this additional risk meaning there is less chance of people being off work for extended periods of time.
So in the case of the OP, you have 2 people knowingly placing the company at greater financial and operational risk than need be the case. My personal view is that this is unfair on their colleagues and employer.
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