Fishmongers' Hall Terror Attack Inquest
Discussion
Not great reading 
Fishmongers' Hall: Graduates were unlawfully killed by terrorist
There was a thread but the search just seems totally useless.
Fishmongers' Hall: Graduates were unlawfully killed by terrorist
There was a thread but the search just seems totally useless.
Why do we have to keep hearing about these terrorists? I'd rather their name was never revealed and their face blurred out.
TX.
Edit - and this is all that is wrong with the legal system ...
"A Court of Appeal ruling meant [terrorist] had to be automatically released on licence from prison, with the Parole Board having no say as to whether he was safe to be freed."
TX.
Edit - and this is all that is wrong with the legal system ...
"A Court of Appeal ruling meant [terrorist] had to be automatically released on licence from prison, with the Parole Board having no say as to whether he was safe to be freed."
Edited by Terminator X on Saturday 29th May 00:37
Not sure I completely agree with the coroners conclusions.
From my reading of it everyone is to blame because they assumed their ideas of rehabilitation were right and trusted that *what they were all there for* was right and true.
The only apparent satisfactory answer to dodge blame was a 'throw away the key' attitude. Otherwise whatever you did would never be enough to not be at fault if it went wrong.
It also drifts into victim blaming because if you take it to the logical conclusion people died because of their naivety in getting involved with the process and in particular trusting the killer and taking their actions at face value.
If you don't trust the process and don't trust the person and will get blamed if you do then what exactly was the point of the whole rehab?
Even the whole MI5 element is a bit stupid - they were monitoring and had no evidence of anything. They'd be in trouble if they hadn't monitored, they'd be in trouble (and wasting resource) if they assumed everyone was an active jihadi, and they're in trouble for monitoring. So there's no winning outcome. Data sharing would have changed nothing.
Now I'd be happy for terrorists to take a one way trip which would be the only winning outcome but this whole process with the coroner seems to be about throwing blame around without actually finding a working solution.
From my reading of it everyone is to blame because they assumed their ideas of rehabilitation were right and trusted that *what they were all there for* was right and true.
The only apparent satisfactory answer to dodge blame was a 'throw away the key' attitude. Otherwise whatever you did would never be enough to not be at fault if it went wrong.
It also drifts into victim blaming because if you take it to the logical conclusion people died because of their naivety in getting involved with the process and in particular trusting the killer and taking their actions at face value.
If you don't trust the process and don't trust the person and will get blamed if you do then what exactly was the point of the whole rehab?
Even the whole MI5 element is a bit stupid - they were monitoring and had no evidence of anything. They'd be in trouble if they hadn't monitored, they'd be in trouble (and wasting resource) if they assumed everyone was an active jihadi, and they're in trouble for monitoring. So there's no winning outcome. Data sharing would have changed nothing.
Now I'd be happy for terrorists to take a one way trip which would be the only winning outcome but this whole process with the coroner seems to be about throwing blame around without actually finding a working solution.
It's amazing how far the parameters of decency and rightful retribution need to change. We now have the honour of providing a war criminal/mass murderer (Karadzic) with comfortable and permanent lodgings, until he expires, on the Isle of Wight. His sentence for his unspeakable atrocities was whole of life and we agreed with EU law that we would share the costs of trial and custody. We are quite simply ridiculously forgiving of the very worst offenders who have absolutely no regret or accepted guilt. What a soft touch we must seem to these animals.
Karadzic was guilty of genocide and will stay in prison until he dies.
If we want to be "global Britain" I struggle to see how that doesn't include taking on our fair share.
Dominic Raab said "We should take pride in the fact that, from UK support to secure his arrest, to the prison cell he now faces, Britain has supported the 30-year pursuit of justice for these heinous crimes." and "If we want to deter these kind of crimes from happening, if we want to give justice to the many thousands of victims, I think it is right we do our bit.".
I honestly think it's hard to disagree with that
If we want to be "global Britain" I struggle to see how that doesn't include taking on our fair share.
Dominic Raab said "We should take pride in the fact that, from UK support to secure his arrest, to the prison cell he now faces, Britain has supported the 30-year pursuit of justice for these heinous crimes." and "If we want to deter these kind of crimes from happening, if we want to give justice to the many thousands of victims, I think it is right we do our bit.".
I honestly think it's hard to disagree with that
TTmonkey said:
Inquest tells us what we all knew already shocker.
We put people in charge of decisions that shouldn’t be in charge anything.
The gall of these progressive liberals who think they can reverse a centuries old ideology with shopping trips and fun days out. We put people in charge of decisions that shouldn’t be in charge anything.
If you didn’t laugh you’d cry.
Would have been quicker for the coroner to just come out and say that attempting rehab is a waste of time, terrorists should be locked up forever or otherwise dealt with, and that those involved were killed by their own stupid attempts to fix the unfixable.
Which I don't disagree with but they sort of danced around it by allocating all sorts of blame but not covering the core issue.
It's really s
t that nice people died for being nice but that was a big part of the problem. The world and people in it aren't nice and thinking otherwise ends badly.
Which I don't disagree with but they sort of danced around it by allocating all sorts of blame but not covering the core issue.
It's really s
t that nice people died for being nice but that was a big part of the problem. The world and people in it aren't nice and thinking otherwise ends badly. bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Karadzic was guilty of genocide and will stay in prison until he dies.
If we want to be "global Britain" I struggle to see how that doesn't include taking on our fair share.
Dominic Raab said "We should take pride in the fact that, from UK support to secure his arrest, to the prison cell he now faces, Britain has supported the 30-year pursuit of justice for these heinous crimes." and "If we want to deter these kind of crimes from happening, if we want to give justice to the many thousands of victims, I think it is right we do our bit.".
I honestly think it's hard to disagree with that
Indeed.If we want to be "global Britain" I struggle to see how that doesn't include taking on our fair share.
Dominic Raab said "We should take pride in the fact that, from UK support to secure his arrest, to the prison cell he now faces, Britain has supported the 30-year pursuit of justice for these heinous crimes." and "If we want to deter these kind of crimes from happening, if we want to give justice to the many thousands of victims, I think it is right we do our bit.".
I honestly think it's hard to disagree with that
As for the London Bridge Terrorist, given he was known as High Risk Kahn by the charity, one feels they may have dropped the ball.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Karadzic was guilty of genocide and will stay in prison until he dies.
If we want to be "global Britain" I struggle to see how that doesn't include taking on our fair share.
Dominic Raab said "We should take pride in the fact that, from UK support to secure his arrest, to the prison cell he now faces, Britain has supported the 30-year pursuit of justice for these heinous crimes." and "If we want to deter these kind of crimes from happening, if we want to give justice to the many thousands of victims, I think it is right we do our bit.".
I honestly think it's hard to disagree with that
Our fair share of what ??If we want to be "global Britain" I struggle to see how that doesn't include taking on our fair share.
Dominic Raab said "We should take pride in the fact that, from UK support to secure his arrest, to the prison cell he now faces, Britain has supported the 30-year pursuit of justice for these heinous crimes." and "If we want to deter these kind of crimes from happening, if we want to give justice to the many thousands of victims, I think it is right we do our bit.".
I honestly think it's hard to disagree with that
He isn’t British, didn’t commit crimes in Britain or against British nationals nor was he tried here.
There is no link whatsoever to the U.K.
mrporsche said:
Our fair share of what ??
He isn’t British, didn’t commit crimes in Britain or against British nationals nor was he tried here.
There is no link whatsoever to the U.K.
I guess it depends whether or not you think we should play a role on the world stage in bringing people who commit genocide to justice.He isn’t British, didn’t commit crimes in Britain or against British nationals nor was he tried here.
There is no link whatsoever to the U.K.
I don't like going directly to Godwin but as we're literally talking about genocide think back to some of the darkest crimes against humanity and what would have happened if we and other nations had said "nothing to do with us".
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:mrporsche said:
Our fair share of what ??
He isn’t British, didn’t commit crimes in Britain or against British nationals nor was he tried here.
There is no link whatsoever to the U.K.
I guess it depends whether or not you think we should play a role on the world stage in bringing people who commit genocide to justice.He isn’t British, didn’t commit crimes in Britain or against British nationals nor was he tried here.
There is no link whatsoever to the U.K.
I don't like going directly to Godwin but as we're literally talking about genocide think back to some of the darkest crimes against humanity and what would have happened if we and other nations had said "nothing to do with us".
Maybe the UN needs to buy an island somewhere where the world's worst criminals can be deposited and everyone chips in to the upkeep.
As for the London Bridge thing, from what I've read I think pquinn has a point.
Hindsight seems to be flavour of the day on so many topics.
How on earth do you ever prove with any reasonable certainty that a terrorist is no longer a threat?
And if they all shrug and go "nothing to do with us there are bigger countries"?
Tend to agree on the Fishmongers' hall point.
The terrorist could have just as easily done what he did at his local corner shop or to some random passers by where he lived.
It's a very difficult one short of locking people up and throwing away the key but some people deserve that.
Tend to agree on the Fishmongers' hall point.
The terrorist could have just as easily done what he did at his local corner shop or to some random passers by where he lived.
It's a very difficult one short of locking people up and throwing away the key but some people deserve that.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: And if they all shrug and go "nothing to do with us there are bigger countries"?
Tend to agree on the Fishmongers' hall point.
The terrorist could have just as easily done what he did at his local corner shop or to some random passers by where he lived.
It's a very difficult one short of locking people up and throwing away the key but some people deserve that.
I guess it depends whether the UN meet was met with silence when Snr Guterres asked the "right, conviction done, sentence done. Now, where shall we put him".Tend to agree on the Fishmongers' hall point.
The terrorist could have just as easily done what he did at his local corner shop or to some random passers by where he lived.
It's a very difficult one short of locking people up and throwing away the key but some people deserve that.
As noted, maybe we should have a UN island somewhere, funded by all nations, that scumbags are put on. There must be plenty of places on the planet that would fit the bill more than the Isle of Wight.
Ref the terrorist, I think sentencing is way too lenient on a number of serious crimes here. Terrorists can join Radovan on a s
t hole of an island for the rest of their days for me.bhstewie said:
hstewie said: And if they all shrug and go "nothing to do with us there are bigger countries"?
Tend to agree on the Fishmongers' hall point.
The terrorist could have just as easily done what he did at his local corner shop or to some random passers by where he lived.
It's a very difficult one short of locking people up and throwing away the key but some people deserve that.
I don't think Fishmongers Hall was something only to be seen in retrospect, there were clear indicators he wasn't deradicalised and the security services had a watching brief on him as one of the most dangerous guys in the country [top seventy with a 2000 page file]. They 'assumed' in contradiction to the evidence and didn't even think 'we should maybe be cautious about this and increase the venue / personal security at least'. Add in the missed communications and such like and it's clear something went very wrong.Tend to agree on the Fishmongers' hall point.
The terrorist could have just as easily done what he did at his local corner shop or to some random passers by where he lived.
It's a very difficult one short of locking people up and throwing away the key but some people deserve that.
I think it's naïve to think 'it could have been the corner shop', that sort of misses the point about what terrorists do, why and how, especially in a 'suicidal mission' sense - you don't spunk your glory on the corner shop.
I understand that it may not have looked immediately problematic [even leaving aside the confirmation bias at play], but it's not a case of predicting what will happen, more a sense that the cone of possibilities was far wider when you combined all the elements.
Not saying we need to be a paranoid mess, just that it should have indicated caution which then should have prescribed basic precautions. IMO at least.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff