Fined 999 driver sees red

[maxrider]

[quote=the sun]
A DRIVER who jumped a red light to let a 999 ambulance pass has been given a £60 fine and three points on his licence.

Railway engineer Mark Freeman, 36, was snapped edging across a junction near his home in Doncaster, South Yorks.

The dad of five said: “The law is barmy. Moving was the only course of action I had — there could have been someone seriously ill or dying.”

He admitted the offence rather than face a big legal bill.

A Department of Transport spokesman said: “The Highway Code states a vehicle should get out of the way of emergency vehicles but not in a way that endangers other road users.”
[/quote]

Assuming 'edging forward' was exactly that and not driving out into the path of crossing traffic...

['King Deadly]

Well, at least we all know where we stand.

[gh0st]

In a thread quite a while back now I said I would not move out of an emergencey vehicles way just in case something like this happened (if the circumstances could not permit me to move anywhere else at the time)

I believe that I was branded selfish and that of course nothing would happen and I wouldnt get the points etc etc

Yeah righto....

[john57]

Surely the ambulance should also have activated the red light camera as well - immediately after this blokes car did ??? The ticket should then have been cancelled ...... unless he did do something stupid and nearly cause an accident.

[LongQ]

As reported in my newspaper today, the following quotes.

South Yorkshire Ambulance Trust:
"It is regrettable that a motorist who gave way to an emergency vehicle has been in court. But the Trust has every confidence in the legal process and the advice given in the highway code."


And from the Ambulance Driver's Union - Unison:
"I'm sure Mr. Freeman thought he was doing the right thing but drivers are trained for these circumstances and he should have stopped at the light."

The Highway code says:

"Situations needing extra care

29: Emergency vehicles. If an ambulance, fire engine, police or other emergency vehicle approaches using flashing blue lights, headlights and/or sirens, keep off the road."

and

"194: Emergency vehicles. You should look and listen for ambulances, fire engines, police or other emergency vehicles using flashing blue, red or green lights, headlights or sirens. When one approaches do not panic. Consider the route of the emergency vehicle and take appropriate action to let it pass. If necessary, pull to the side of the road and stop, but do not endanger other road users."

All suitably vague I suppose, perhaps even slightly contradictory?



So there you have it. Stop at the light and let the crews sort out the problem. Fine (no pun intended) by me.


Edit to add the quote from RAC's Kevin Delaney;

""... said the law was unequivocal and he regretfully would advise any motorist not to go through a red light to allow an emergency vehicle to pass.

'There should be an exemption in the law to deal with this or some discretion exercised by the courts.' he said. 'But sadly it does not happen.'


Comments from resident Bib (if there are any left) welcomed.

>> Edited by LongQ on Friday 15th July 11:53

[twister]

john57 said:

Surely the ambulance should also have activated the red light camera as well - immediately after this blokes car did ???

Not if the car started edging forwards just a few seconds before the lights started their red-green transition. Car triggers RLC just at the end of the red light phase, but by the time the car has cleared the line and allowed the ambulance to pass, the lights have now turned green, so no RLC trigger for the ambulance...

...and if the ambulance was still a few seconds away from arriving at the lights when the car triggered the RLC (i.e. an alert car driver noticing the approach of the ambulance in their mirrors and moving out of the way promptly so as to avoid any hold-up), then the ambulance might not even appear in the RLC photos showing the car crossing the line, let alone appear in any photos of its own.

[lunarscope]

The question is: "Would a BiB have nicked him ?"

[tvrgit]

lunarscope said:

The question is: "Would a BiB have nicked him ?"

Exactly.

As someone else said earlier, at least we now know exactly where we stand. Very very sad - we are turning into a nation of "I'm-all-right-jacks", and stupidity like this does nothing to help.

[busa_rush]

Bit sad isn't it. At least I know for sure what I should do now rather than just assuming it to be the case.

So the chap (old thread) in the contraflow who had a plod car behind him waving at him to speed up could have the plod done for dangerous or something similar driving ?

[gone]

LongQ said:

Comments from resident Bib (if there are any left) welcomed. >> Edited by LongQ on Friday 15th July 11:53

It suits me fine to be blocked when attending an emergency if thats what drivers feel they should do then that is up to them. I know where I am going and they do not. I could even be attending to their house/relative/problem/emergency and they personally do not know about it.

Policy is that we should make every effort to get to an emergency as quickly but as safely as possible. The day that policy states that blue lights and sirens are to be severely restricted on attending emergencies will not be far away and then you will not have to worry about making room for attending vehicles to pass.

Its your shout. Block if you must, personally I don't give a monkeys but someone else might do

[gone]

busa_rush said:

So the chap (old thread) in the contraflow who had a plod car behind him waving at him to speed up could have the plod done for dangerous or something similar driving ?

He could try! He may even be successful.

If he did, what messgae do you think would quickly get around that shift/team/station/division/force?

You will always get a rookie wanting to 'give it some' to get to a committment fast. Those with any common sense just chill out and get there when they can without any repercussions!

[nightmare]

but that's exactly the point. An aware citizen, seeing an emergency vehicle come up, would likely do everything they can to not be in the way. People who don't do that are usually labelled w*nkers

If you then find you could actually get prosecuted (carrying a financial cost) I can imagine people saying 'well f**k it then'

if there isn't any more to this news than's been said then this is blooody awful

[cliffe_mafia]

I will still move out of the way for emergencies, even through a red light (if safe to do so).

I know the article was in the Sun and the info is pretty sketchy, but he could have gone to court and would probably have ended up with 3 points and £60 fine. I would like to think that firstly the CPS would have dropped the case and if not a magistrate would have seen sense.
The Scameraships won't make a judgement call so if he wanted justice he should have gone to court.

If he was still found guilty I'm sure the Sun would have paid for an appeal!

[nismo200sx]

gone said:

It suits me fine to be blocked when attending an emergency if thats what drivers feel they should do then that is up to them. I know where I am going and they do not. I could even be attending to their house/relative/problem/emergency and they personally do not know about it. Policy is that we should make every effort to get to an emergency as quickly but as safely as possible. The day that policy states that blue lights and sirens are to be severely restricted on attending emergencies will not be far away and then you will not have to worry about making room for attending vehicles to pass. Its your shout. Block if you must, personally I don't give a monkeys but someone else might do

Would you give a "monkeys" if it was your "house/relative/problem/emergency" you were attending ?

I understood the invite to be comments on whether you would have pulled him for it.

I and most other decent people would never block an emergency vehicle but if we are to be penalised for doing so then you may find more people will.

I have to say that I find your comments a little disturbing

[LongQ]

gone said:

Its your shout. Block if you must, personally I don't give a monkeys but someone else might do

Ah, so thoughts that you may all have been 'warned off' must be untrue - unless of course your are not gone but an identitiy thief!

The bit I was particularly struck by and had not come across anywhere before was this -

"And from the Ambulance Driver's Union - Unison:
"I'm sure Mr. Freeman thought he was doing the right thing but drivers are trained for these circumstances and he should have stopped at the light." "

A statement which seems to be slightly at odds with your comments.

Now personally I always have and always would try to get out of the way of any emergency vehicle in 'the safest way possible' as suggested by the highway code.

But recent events are beginning to suggest that this may, these days, be more of a hinderance to the emergency vehicle (unpredictability of action on busy roads) than a help.

As for lighted junctions - when there were few red light cameras around it was not really an issue and I uspect it would mostly have been dealt with sensibly in amongst the relatively few incidents occurring.

But now the days of mass automation are with us and the fines are a matter of standard penalty, why should anyone think about it at all. 'I dunno guv, I just do what I am told.' How many clerks or thier seniors would be interested in this - just another punter trying to wheedle their way out of a fine and points. Even the duty solicitor took that opinion.

So now let's see, if I am near my home (or that of a relative let's say) and I am in that situation (and happen to remember that this junction has a red light camera ...) then I might choose to make space if the EV has no alternatives. Elsewhere - why should I care? Probably another false alarm.

Of course those around me may not be near their homes and would likely take a 'not a concern to me' attitude.

So the chances of me doing any good at all by getting 3 points, a fine and continuing financial penalties from a gleeful insurance company are, frankly, rather small. Pitifully so in fact.

So I think you are absolutely right gone. Chill out, don't worry about it. The EV driver will be trained to deal with such a situation and to take any action may in fact make their task less predictable. So if it is not possible to move out of the way without any risk, probably best not to move at all. At many traffic lighted junctions that is probably true whether or not there is a red light camera.

[Hollywood Wheels]

"Would Plod have pulled him?" Daft question. Arn't people here always crying out for more Plod and less automation? As Gone said, if the 'i'm gonna make a point' merchants don't want to move, fine, i'll switch it all off and wait till the lights turn green, no skin off my nose at all.

I should point out though that whilst i do enjoy 'progressive' driving, i'm actually driving fast to get to a call and help someone. That's my job, to help people. If you want to stop or delay me from doing that......crack on......but don't moan next time the Police are late getting somewhere!

I can understand what people are saying.....but there is more to this story than is being reported. He could easily have had it boshed, and there's obviously a good reason why he didn't. Good old sensationalist press....

[LongQ]

cliffe_mafia said:

I will still move out of the way for emergencies, even through a red light (if safe to do so). I know the article was in the Sun and the info is pretty sketchy, but he could have gone to court and would probably have ended up with 3 points and £60 fine. I would like to think that firstly the CPS would have dropped the case and if not a magistrate would have seen sense. The Scameraships won't make a judgement call so if he wanted justice he should have gone to court. If he was still found guilty I'm sure the Sun would have paid for an appeal!

As reported in the Daily Mail, South Yorks Scamera partnership were not interested in the situation and he went to court 3 times prior to the case (pre-trial hearinga and all that sort of stuff I assume), after which he was advised by the court clerk to change his plea to guilty having been advised that he had little chance of winning and could be faced with a large legal cost if it had gone to trial.

It's the modern way - guilty until you can afford to spend enough money to make yourself innocent.

[Dwight VanDriver]

>>>>>He admitted the offence rather than face a big legal bill. <<<<<<<

It costs nothing to refuse the CO and have the matter taken to a Court.

Just read a report of incident that occurred in IOLAIRE Country - Kilmarnock. Hospital driver, police trained, caught on camera at 68 mph in a 40 zone. At the time on humanitarian run carrying a lung to a transplant patient from Scotland to Newcastle. Official vehicle and blues on. Unfortunately they fused on the way which led to an intercounty Police escort being provided which was in being at time of flash.

Driver refused CO and Court appearance booked for 29.8.2005. Thankfully a Glasgow solicitor highlighted the case to Kilmarnock Procurator Fiscal - court officials now say it will not be in the public interest to prosecute.

Trouble is as I see it is that the SCP people are not experienced in traffic matters and seem to be allowing civilians to churn prosecutions out from a far too clinical detection method. Faced with the decision having all the facts I would NFA's both at birth which in fairness SCP do not have when they churn the paperwork out.

DVD



>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Friday 15th July 15:06

[GKP]

In my 20+ years of driving, I've never had any sort of "police/ambulance/fire" style driver training. BUT, I'm not sure I really need any to slowly and observantly edge across a red light. Just a functioning pair of eyes and ears seems to be the required qualifications for that manoeuvre.
What a cr*p piece of "law" enforcement.

[gone]

nismo200sx said:

Would you give a "monkeys" if it was your "house/relative/problem/emergency" you were attending ?

Of course, but I would know about where and why!
Advanced driving on response commitments means planning so you don't get boxed in by people at red lights!

nismo200sx said:

I understood the invite to be comments on whether you would have pulled him for it.

so you got more than you bargained for

nismo200sx said:

I and most other decent people would never block an emergency vehicle but if we are to be penalised for doing so then you may find more people will.

I think you will find that most people will not be penalised for geteting out of the way

nismo200sx said:

I have to say that I find your comments a little disturbing

Welcom to speeding/plod and the real world !