I give up on this car. Want to trade it in.
Discussion
So after 3.5 years of dealing with all kinds of issues, I am giving up on this car and going to trade it in for a cheap one.
Usually people trade in an older or cheaper car to get some discount/credit towards buying a newer or more expensive car. In my situation, I'm doing the opposite. My car is valued at around 14K (probably a couple thousand less even) but I'm looking to trade it in for an older and cheaper car valued at around 2 to 3k.
The problem is that my current car is unresolved "issues". I don't know exactly what the issues are because that's what I've been asking and trying to figure out for 3 years and nobody could figure it out. It's a 2013 VW Scirocco R tuned with APR Stage 2+ that I bought in 2017 at 54k km. It's now at 75k km and I'm looking to trade it in for a 2007-2010 Kia Morning or similar cheap ass car like that since they are very cheap in my country and affordable. I already have a 2001 Matiz that I bought for 950 bucks in 2018 and still works fine for me today. I really loved this Scirocco R and would keep it for 10 more years if I could because I love it. But with the tuning issues and/or related to it, IDK and nobody really knows what is wrong with it. Everyone just tells me probably change the turbo, probably change the transmission, probably rebuild the engine, or it might just be a clogged cat or leak or loose seals. I don't want to know anymore. I just want to get rid of it.
I've never traded in a car like this before so how does it work? I know used car dealers will fleece me when I trade it in and I'm prepared to get pennies back for it, especially since it has "unresolved issues" that I am not going to tell them what is wrong with it....they can figure it out themselves because I've tried for 3 years to figure it out and nobody could help me.
So if I find a Matiz or Morning (pre 2010 with about 70k - 90 k km) valued at around 2 to 3k dollars, do I trade in my current car and then they will send whatever extra cash they are willing to give me for the car? If I can get a Morning and 5 grand, I'd take it. But what should I expect?
If they took the car in for trade in and then later on found out serious problems with the car, could they get back at me and say I owe them money or something for the repairs?
Usually people trade in an older or cheaper car to get some discount/credit towards buying a newer or more expensive car. In my situation, I'm doing the opposite. My car is valued at around 14K (probably a couple thousand less even) but I'm looking to trade it in for an older and cheaper car valued at around 2 to 3k.
The problem is that my current car is unresolved "issues". I don't know exactly what the issues are because that's what I've been asking and trying to figure out for 3 years and nobody could figure it out. It's a 2013 VW Scirocco R tuned with APR Stage 2+ that I bought in 2017 at 54k km. It's now at 75k km and I'm looking to trade it in for a 2007-2010 Kia Morning or similar cheap ass car like that since they are very cheap in my country and affordable. I already have a 2001 Matiz that I bought for 950 bucks in 2018 and still works fine for me today. I really loved this Scirocco R and would keep it for 10 more years if I could because I love it. But with the tuning issues and/or related to it, IDK and nobody really knows what is wrong with it. Everyone just tells me probably change the turbo, probably change the transmission, probably rebuild the engine, or it might just be a clogged cat or leak or loose seals. I don't want to know anymore. I just want to get rid of it.
I've never traded in a car like this before so how does it work? I know used car dealers will fleece me when I trade it in and I'm prepared to get pennies back for it, especially since it has "unresolved issues" that I am not going to tell them what is wrong with it....they can figure it out themselves because I've tried for 3 years to figure it out and nobody could help me.
So if I find a Matiz or Morning (pre 2010 with about 70k - 90 k km) valued at around 2 to 3k dollars, do I trade in my current car and then they will send whatever extra cash they are willing to give me for the car? If I can get a Morning and 5 grand, I'd take it. But what should I expect?
If they took the car in for trade in and then later on found out serious problems with the car, could they get back at me and say I owe them money or something for the repairs?
The dealer will give you 14k for your car, or at least the car you want to buy plus a cheque for the difference.
Ensure however that the cheque you get is paid to you on the day you get your car and not a few weeks later as it can be difficult to get the money once you’ve left the premises
Ensure however that the cheque you get is paid to you on the day you get your car and not a few weeks later as it can be difficult to get the money once you’ve left the premises
Trade it in
Stick it in the auction yourself and pay the fees
WBAC is another option
they can't come after you as far as I know - some will do checks on the car before hand some won't
Idealy trade it in the a main dealer/large chain. they will send it straight to auction anyway
With any luck in the auction no one will really touch it and someone who does know its had various upgrades, gets a good deal and is a good hand at fixing stuff making it worthwhile for them!
Stick it in the auction yourself and pay the fees
WBAC is another option
they can't come after you as far as I know - some will do checks on the car before hand some won't
Idealy trade it in the a main dealer/large chain. they will send it straight to auction anyway
With any luck in the auction no one will really touch it and someone who does know its had various upgrades, gets a good deal and is a good hand at fixing stuff making it worthwhile for them!
Edited by Chamon_Lee on Monday 21st June 14:42
Edited by Chamon_Lee on Monday 21st June 14:42
cornflakes2 said:
If they took the car in for trade in and then later on found out serious problems with the car, could they get back at me and say I owe them money or something for the repairs?
Hopefully, yes. Otherwise you are just screwing someone over for no reason. Did you modify the car yourself, causing the issues? If so, take responsibility. If you bought it in this condition, you really should have resolved that with the supplying dealer at the time.Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
The dealer will give you 14k for your car, or at least the car you want to buy plus a cheque for the difference.
Ensure however that the cheque you get is paid to you on the day you get your car and not a few weeks later as it can be difficult to get the money once you’ve left the premises
that's a good point! thanks for pointing that out. I will make sure i get paid on the same day before leaving.Ensure however that the cheque you get is paid to you on the day you get your car and not a few weeks later as it can be difficult to get the money once you’ve left the premises
Chamon_Lee said:
Trade it in
Stick it in the auction yourself and pay the fees
WBAC is another option
they can't come after you as far as I know - some will do checks on the car before hand some won't
Idealy trade it in the a main dealer/large chain. they will send it straight to auction anyway
With any luck in the auction no one will really touch it and someone who does know its had various upgrades, gets a good deal and is a good hand at fixing stuff making it worthwhile for them!
Wow thanks for that insight! Yes, I was reading on it some more and found that some dealerships still buy cars that have issues because they just sell it to wholesalers or to auctions so they don't really even care if it's got issues as they aren't keeping it. I'm just assuming they aren't going to give me market value for the car. The book says its 14k here (sorry I'm not in the UK), but given that if I trade it in at a dealership they will probably fleece me and offer much less + the fact the car has some issues that I honestly don't know what it is because that is what I've been trying to figure out for 3 years. It could be something so small like a loose hose or seal or even just a cheap part under 1 grand fix OR it could be a big issue like turbo dying or transmission issue. I wonder how much they'd offer for trade in and as down payment to buy a new car on their lot?Stick it in the auction yourself and pay the fees
WBAC is another option
they can't come after you as far as I know - some will do checks on the car before hand some won't
Idealy trade it in the a main dealer/large chain. they will send it straight to auction anyway
With any luck in the auction no one will really touch it and someone who does know its had various upgrades, gets a good deal and is a good hand at fixing stuff making it worthwhile for them!
Edited by Chamon_Lee on Monday 21st June 14:42
Edited by Chamon_Lee on Monday 21st June 14:42
I can also pay in full for the new car (no financing required, just lump sum payment all in one day with the trade in down payment).
But if I go to a used car dealership to do the same thing, I don't know how different or similar it will be with them?
Bennet said:
Hopefully, yes. Otherwise you are just screwing someone over for no reason. Did you modify the car yourself, causing the issues? If so, take responsibility. If you bought it in this condition, you really should have resolved that with the supplying dealer at the time.
That's the problem. I honestly don't know what the issue(s) are. That's what I've been trying to find out for 3 years. I've gone to many mechanics and shops, documented all my visits, made video recordings of all my symptoms, invested in VCDS to try and find it myself, no effing clue. It's just anything. I've gotten answers all over the board. It could be this it be that, nobody can give me a straight answer in a dozen places I've gone to and spoke with nobody here does anything like simple tests. They only do visual inspections and say there's nothing wrong. I was just at a shop today and we checked again for leaks and he says there's none! This is like the 5th guy whole told me no leaks. So if there is no leak, where the hell is that loud airy whooshing noise coming from when I step on the gas and there is very little power but a lot of turbo boost and a lot of air noise but no speed?Now I'm being told it "could be" the turbo is going. Car is only at 75k km. Turbo going already? I bought it already tuned and I've done no modifications. It was at 54k km when I bought it in 2017 late October. It's only at 75k now. I've only done maintenance like oil changes, carbon intake clean up, changed spark plugs, coil packs, charcoal canister, PCV, DV, cleaned the TB, changed new intercooler hoses, and changed all 4 brake pads and discs/rotors. Tuning wise, I haven't done anything to it.
I love the car. I still love it today. I wish it didn't have this issue (whatever it is) and I could just keep it for another 7 years cuz when it drives as it should, I love this car. But when people are telling me it could be tuning issue (wtf does that mean...and nobody can check the tune except the one place that originally tuned it), or turbo replacement, or possible transmission issue (got a clutch code recently and today at a shop the guy was testing it out and did some kind of vcds adaptation of the clutch and then as he was Forward and Reverse changing modes the car made a loud grinding noise and shut off! Oh s
t! I have no idea what just happened...was that the transmission? He later there was some very light smoke coming out from the hood and a slight burnt smell he didn't even seem to know and I had to point it out to him). Anyways he drove it some more brought back and told me it should be fine now the clutch code didn't come back but the car still drives like crap as there is no acceleration just a lot of boost and a loud whooshing sound when you accelerate).So when I trade it in, I can't say what is wrong with the car cuz I don't know. I just know it has trouble accelerating and there are no codes. I'm just fed up with it and I've spent hundreds of hours posting on forums for 3 years and got nowhere ultimately. I just have to give up on this car trade it in get rid of it before it costs me more money. I'm already willing to just take a loss on the car as long as I don't have to spend another 3k or 5k on it. So sad ...I'm majorly depressed about it and I feel like I got screwed in the end because whoever owned it before must've known there was something and it just got passed onto me and I paid a lot for this car ..... fk me eh?
dammit I should add more cuz there is so much to this story:
I looked at the car history service records. At 49,000 km the previous owner took it in for a transmission fluid change and it appears a couple weeks later he went back and transmission was noted as something (foreign language). Then he sold the car at 54,000 km. That's when I bought it. The listing showed no history of accidents, no problems etc. I just noticed the service history after a month when I took it to a VW service center to change brake fluid and oil change. Later I found an APR shop, he tells me thinks my car isn't really APR tuned. He says he's an authorized APR dealer (in Korea where I'm at) but said he saw no records of my car VIN as apr tuned. He also checked my downpipe/exhaust setup and said he doesn't think it's real apr. I emailed APR US and they asked for my VIN and I gave it to them they told me I am on their records as having APR Stage 2+ tune with RFD file and testpipe 93 octane something blah blah). So I get conflicting answers from everyone.
I even took it to another tuning shop a year ago ...place called REVO tuning and they were supposed to check my car cuz I told them about my symptoms. Kept the car there for a week....they didn't check anything really cuz they told me no problems found and then just told me I should switch over to REVO stage 2 LOL. OMG. the nerve.
anyways...failed emissions test, had to get it passed by some "under the table" method forked over 300 bucks for it and they passed it. Who knows wth is gonna happen.....I hear in US EPA is cracking down on all tuning shops fining them tens of thousands of dollars etc. I don't even know why APR tuning is LEGAL. The mechanic here tells me APR tuning all fails the emissions test. I just want to get out of this mess. I hear conflicting stories and nobody can give me a straight answer. All I do is spend thousands of dollars maintaning and replacing parts and the car isn't fixed and spend my entire weekends trying to drive to the only places that can check my car since it's "tuned" nobody else wants to touch it. I think the best thing for me is to just finally get my hands off this car and trade it in for a simple cheap ass car. Sadly my $950 2001 matiz car I bought in 2018 is performing better for me in 2021 than this 2013 VW Scirocco R APR Stage 2+ supposedly 300 hp but my 69 hp matiz is faster than my VW from 0-60 km/h at 2000 rpm.
Edited by cornflakes2 on Monday 21st June 17:47
Edited by cornflakes2 on Monday 21st June 17:48
craigjm said:
Why havent you removed the modifications and put it back to standard?
Yeah! I wanted to do that too but whenever I suggest that to anyone here, they tell me it's gonna cost a lot of money.I've have to replace all the stage 2 parts back to stock and the stock map or something costs a lot. I asked APR USA they emailed
me said it's free to go back to stock. This is what I get non-stop. Everything is conflicting. Nobody is straight with me. I even
called in sick today to skip work so that I could try and spend some time to get this car checked out today
It's 2 am here and I should go to bed but this is what I do for the past 3 years...stay up to 2 am 3 am on work nights asking questions
trying to find help online and in the end get nowhere. I think I have logged about 500 hours in total the past 3 years just on the internet
watching videos, tutorials, reading articles, researching, and chatting on forums.
I even invested in the VCDS software and when I joined their forum and started asking questions, I just got treated badly there because
they are too smart for me and look down on me since I don't know much about VCDS or the science behind the data and logs. I stopped
going there to ask anymore.
Edited by cornflakes2 on Monday 21st June 17:54
Your symptoms sound familiar.......
Different car but might help. Wife's 2.0L Tiguan had the same issue and maybe similar engine. Lack of power and odd whooshing noise. This was most obvious when it was hot due to the AC running. VW service absolutely said there was no issue but it was obvious to me there was. A quick tighten of the Engine Crankcase Vent Valve solved the problem for a few weeks until it happened again and I had to replace the part which I bought off Amazon. Before the second instance, if I really made the engine work it would seem fine. That is why the garage thought there was no issue, or leak.
It is 5 minutes job and the car was working like new. 12 months later and it still runs fine.
thisis what it looks like from above on my wife's car
Take the plastic engine cover off and it is right there. When replacing it you take out the injectors but to check how tight the bolts are you do not have to. Do not over tighten though as it is plastic.
Different car but might help. Wife's 2.0L Tiguan had the same issue and maybe similar engine. Lack of power and odd whooshing noise. This was most obvious when it was hot due to the AC running. VW service absolutely said there was no issue but it was obvious to me there was. A quick tighten of the Engine Crankcase Vent Valve solved the problem for a few weeks until it happened again and I had to replace the part which I bought off Amazon. Before the second instance, if I really made the engine work it would seem fine. That is why the garage thought there was no issue, or leak.
It is 5 minutes job and the car was working like new. 12 months later and it still runs fine.
thisis what it looks like from above on my wife's car
Take the plastic engine cover off and it is right there. When replacing it you take out the injectors but to check how tight the bolts are you do not have to. Do not over tighten though as it is plastic.
Edited by h0b0 on Monday 21st June 18:26
h0b0 said:
Your symptoms sound familiar.......
Different car but might help. Wife's 2.0L Tiguan had the same issue and maybe similar engine. Lack of power and odd whooshing noise. This was most obvious when it was hot due to the AC running. VW service absolutely said there was no issue but it was obvious to me there was. A quick tighten of the Engine Crankcase Vent Valve solved the problem for a few weeks until it happened again and I had to replace the part which I bought off Amazon. Before the second instance, if I really made the engine work it would seem fine. That is why the garage thought there was no issue, or leak.
It is 5 minutes job and the car was working like new. 12 months later and it still runs fine.
thisis what it looks like from above on my wife's car
Take the plastic engine cover off and it is right there. When replacing it you take out the injectors but to check how tight the bolts are you do not have to. Do not over tighten though as it is plastic.
I really appreciate you sharing that with me. What is that part? The name? Is it a PCV?Different car but might help. Wife's 2.0L Tiguan had the same issue and maybe similar engine. Lack of power and odd whooshing noise. This was most obvious when it was hot due to the AC running. VW service absolutely said there was no issue but it was obvious to me there was. A quick tighten of the Engine Crankcase Vent Valve solved the problem for a few weeks until it happened again and I had to replace the part which I bought off Amazon. Before the second instance, if I really made the engine work it would seem fine. That is why the garage thought there was no issue, or leak.
It is 5 minutes job and the car was working like new. 12 months later and it still runs fine.
thisis what it looks like from above on my wife's car
Take the plastic engine cover off and it is right there. When replacing it you take out the injectors but to check how tight the bolts are you do not have to. Do not over tighten though as it is plastic.
Edited by h0b0 on Monday 21st June 18:26
Last but not least some of the video clips I took over the past year or so I just uploaded onto youtube channel I made more so for a "video hosting site" so that I could get a link and give to my mechanics or anyone online. If anyone wanted to take a look here they are:
https://www.youtube.com/user/help4rabbit
It progressively got worse and worse each year. The main issue was that I used to be able to get up to 80 km/h without ever going into boost (needle under 0) and only 1.5-1.8 k RPM. But when the issue first started I noticed boost would now go over 0 at 1.5-1.8 k RPM to get to 80 km/h. What and why would that happen? Of course now, it's even worse and undriveable really. I struggle to get to 60 km/h at 2000 rpm and boost reads 0.5 bar (8 psi) and car is just stuttering/juddering/hesitating and loud air whoosh noise when i press the accelerator but no air whoosh sound when I let off. Once the car is up to speed (80+ km/h) acceleration is not as bad...still bad but very driveable. It's only really bad from 0 km/h to 60 km/h.
Edited by cornflakes2 on Tuesday 22 June 16:54
Yes, it is the Pressure Control Valve (PCV).
Looking at the symptoms,
Engine misfires at idle.
Lean air-fuel mixture.
Presence of engine oil in PCV valve or hose.
Increased oil consumption.
Hard engine start.
Rough engine idle.
Possibly black smoke.
Oil fouled spark plugs
We had some of these and fixed the symptom and not the source. We had a bad misfire and replaced the coil pack and spark plugs. I would suggest VW should have been familiar with the PCV issue and fixed that as well.
When we took the car in for service we told them the symptoms and they had no idea. When I did some research I found many people with the same problem.
Looking at the symptoms,
Engine misfires at idle.
Lean air-fuel mixture.
Presence of engine oil in PCV valve or hose.
Increased oil consumption.
Hard engine start.
Rough engine idle.
Possibly black smoke.
Oil fouled spark plugs
We had some of these and fixed the symptom and not the source. We had a bad misfire and replaced the coil pack and spark plugs. I would suggest VW should have been familiar with the PCV issue and fixed that as well.
When we took the car in for service we told them the symptoms and they had no idea. When I did some research I found many people with the same problem.
Edited by h0b0 on Tuesday 22 June 17:04
h0b0 said:
Yes, it is the Pressure Control Valve (PCV).
Ah! yes one of the mechanics did look at it and replace the pcv he told me and it was still the same. He did that when failed the 1st emissions test and replaced it but still failed the 2nd time. He also looked under the hood as I held the brakes and parking brake and put car into DRIVE and accelerate to 2000 rpm to find where the whooshing air noise was coming from and he never found it so I'm sure if it was the PCV he would have seen/heard it. Wish that was all it was.
Edited by cornflakes2 on Tuesday 22 June 17:00
h0b0 said:
Yes, it is the Pressure Control Valve (PCV).
Looking at the symptoms,
Engine misfires at idle.
Lean air-fuel mixture.
Presence of engine oil in PCV valve or hose.
Increased oil consumption.
Hard engine start.
Rough engine idle.
Possibly black smoke.
Oil fouled spark plugs
We had some of these and fixed the symptom and not the source. We had a bad misfire and replaced the coil pack and spark plugs. I would suggest VW should have been familiar with the PCV issue and fixed that as well.
When we took the car in for service we told them the symptoms and they had no idea. When I did some research I found many people with the same problem.
My symptoms have been the following:Looking at the symptoms,
Engine misfires at idle.
Lean air-fuel mixture.
Presence of engine oil in PCV valve or hose.
Increased oil consumption.
Hard engine start.
Rough engine idle.
Possibly black smoke.
Oil fouled spark plugs
We had some of these and fixed the symptom and not the source. We had a bad misfire and replaced the coil pack and spark plugs. I would suggest VW should have been familiar with the PCV issue and fixed that as well.
When we took the car in for service we told them the symptoms and they had no idea. When I did some research I found many people with the same problem.
Edited by h0b0 on Tuesday 22 June 17:04
-cold start rough idling issue (see my videos on the youtube channel). It was mild in 2017 winter, then worse in 2018 winter, even worse in 2019 and 2020 winter to the point the engine would shut off if I drove it without warming up at least 1 minute or waiting for the coolant temp to reach 20 C degrees. I would have to constantly give it some gas during that 1 minute wait or else the engine would just die on its own. It never happened in the warmer season until a couple times now it has happen in summer of 2020 so the signs are that whatever it is, it's been getting progressively worse.
I thought it was due to RFD delete (the car is APR tuned Stage 2+ by previous owner) but when I contacted APR USA they told me that according to my VIN number the car had the RFD cold start file so my rough idling issue shouldn't be because of the Runner Flap Delete.
-I didn't have any black smoke.
-I didn't have any loss in fuel efficiency. I was still getting the same average of about 550-600 km per tank even with these ongoing symptoms.
-The fuel efficiency has only gone down since a few weeks ago when the loss of acceleration power at low speed became really bad now that it's almost dangerous to drive it I feel. So even while I driving very safely and conservatively, my fuel range per full tank is now only about 480-500km.
-No coolant leak (same level as always)
-I did notice that hot air always seems to come through the front window vents into the cabin whenever I drive it even with heating and all fans OFF. It just gets pretty warm inside and I don't know why warm/hot air comes into the cabin, but absolutely no smell/odorless (no smell of gas/exhaust etc). It's just hot air like the heating was turned on but it isn't. It does this whether it is summer or winter. Of course less noticeable in winter because it's so cold and I'm always trying to turn on the heat anyways to warm up the cabin. But in the summer time I really notice it because I tend not to drive with AC on. I like to just have my windows cracked down a bit but I feel hot air coming out somewhere into the cabin.
-there have been a few times where I experienced what I think is called "transmission delay"? It's where I start the car, and put it in reverse to move just a few meters but the car took a little longer to react before it finally engaged and moved. There was no sound like grinding or shaking. It was just a delay of 1-2 seconds. But it was alarming to me because I can feel it is very unusual when your car doesn't reverse when you put it in reverse even for just 1 second. It should be instant.
-during my last visit a couple days ago to a mechanic, he used VCDS and did some kind "clutch adaptation"...i think it just resets something but when he did it, I saw for the first time the car make a loud grinding noise when he was reversing it and going forward and reversing in the parking lot and that loud grinding noise lasted about 3 seconds and the engine shut off. But he tried a few more times and it seems it's ok now but wth? That didn't sound good and there was even a little of smoke coming out of the hood with a slight burnt smell. It made no difference to the driving though. Still bad acceleration at low speeds with lots of air whoosh noise stumbling and hesitating to get up to 60 km/h while boost is 8 or 9 psi at 2000 rpm.
-yes I get misfires a lot but I don't have it hooked up to vcds live data all the time but when I do run it, I always get a few misfires during the drive....some at idle and some while driving but mostly at idle.
-failed emissions test NO and HC were double than the allowable limit but CO was perfect. Hopefully that gives some kind of clue?
(I got the emissions test passed anyways...I don't know how but my guess is someone fudged the numbers for me since I paid $300).
-I was told a while back when I visited a tuning shop that my engine was running RICH. When I check my VCDS live data lambda is always around -10 to -25. I don't know why it would run rich.
-One mechanic told me I have a lot of blowby gas. Don't know what that means and why. He was the one that changed my PCV but it made no difference to my emissions test (before it was passed) or the driving experience.
-I had my intake valves carbon cleaned recently, new stock diverter valve, new intercooler hoses, new charcoal canister, changed spark plugs, coil packs and fuel filter back at around 58,000 km...the car is currently at 75,000 km so I wouldn't think the plugs would be bad already or the fuel filter clogged already? (unless running rich makes things dirty and clogged and fouled faster?).
-I did notice something in the car's maintenance history. The previous owner changed the transmission oil at 49,000 km. Then re-visited the shop for another transmission check up at 49,800 km. Then the car was put up for sale at 54,000 km which is when I bought it. If I am not mistaken, transmission oil doesn't need to be changed until at least 80k miles or 100k km? Why did he change it so early at 49k km? Could it be that a tuned car needs to have transmission oil changed faster?
Your first symptom with cold starting sounds like the MAP is the cause of some of your issues. I would advise going back to standard. But, the other symptoms and the behaviour of the previous owner point to other issues. I would stick it in the equivalent of Webuyanycar for your country.
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