Unregistered land & adverse possession
Discussion
Hi there,
Any advice appreciated.. There is piece of land neighbouring our property that we believe is unregistered, shown in yellow on the plan below. I’ll refer to it as the yellow triangle. Our property is shown in blue and our neighbours in red – these boundaries are both as per the title plans. A stream runs through the gap between the red and yellow plots and runs across the back of our property; we own that part of the river bed.
The previous owner of our property cared for the yellow triangle for 7 years and put in a gate on our boundary to access it. He wrote a statutory declaration during conveyancing to pass on the accrued period of adverse possession, in order that we could claim possession after 12 years. I saw this as a “nice to have” and would have purchased the property anyway.
While the property was vacant during conveyancing a neighbour has put a fence in front of our fence and the access gate.
They have laid a log across the stream with makeshift hand rail in order to access the land. They’re saying the land is in an old title deed of theirs. If this were the case, it seems odd that they permitted the previous owner of our property to use and care for the land for 7 years without raising objection. We have reviewed their title plan online and it is not shown to be theirs. We suspect that they are now trying to claim adverse possession under the Limitation Act 1980.
My belief is that the land is unregistered and neither of us own it. As soon as we moved in we verbally proposed to share it on an informal basis. It’s a small patch that would be ideal for a bench and a few plants overlooking the stream. It was quickly apparent that they are not willing to share it and are trying to claim it. The land is mostly overgrown and could become an eyesore.
They have mowed a small area and have now planted along the fence they have erected which is clearly an attempt to grow a hedge. They are in their late 60’s / early 70’s and can barely get across the makeshift bridge to access the land anyway!
I cannot find any evidence that they own the land so I am intending to ask them to provide evidence that it is theirs. If they cannot / will not I will assume that they are trying to claim adverse possession of unregistered land.
My ideal outcome would be to share the land and upkeep. I think this is unlikely now, but I am also not prepared to enter a stressful and costly land dispute.
I think it’s unlikely due to the duration of time and their age but if 12 years pass and they try to acquire possessory title, do I have any grounds to object?
In the shorter term, if I decide to access the land, do they have any grounds to take civil action for trespass?
Any thoughts or advise on how to approach this?
Thanks
Any advice appreciated.. There is piece of land neighbouring our property that we believe is unregistered, shown in yellow on the plan below. I’ll refer to it as the yellow triangle. Our property is shown in blue and our neighbours in red – these boundaries are both as per the title plans. A stream runs through the gap between the red and yellow plots and runs across the back of our property; we own that part of the river bed.
The previous owner of our property cared for the yellow triangle for 7 years and put in a gate on our boundary to access it. He wrote a statutory declaration during conveyancing to pass on the accrued period of adverse possession, in order that we could claim possession after 12 years. I saw this as a “nice to have” and would have purchased the property anyway.
While the property was vacant during conveyancing a neighbour has put a fence in front of our fence and the access gate.
They have laid a log across the stream with makeshift hand rail in order to access the land. They’re saying the land is in an old title deed of theirs. If this were the case, it seems odd that they permitted the previous owner of our property to use and care for the land for 7 years without raising objection. We have reviewed their title plan online and it is not shown to be theirs. We suspect that they are now trying to claim adverse possession under the Limitation Act 1980.
My belief is that the land is unregistered and neither of us own it. As soon as we moved in we verbally proposed to share it on an informal basis. It’s a small patch that would be ideal for a bench and a few plants overlooking the stream. It was quickly apparent that they are not willing to share it and are trying to claim it. The land is mostly overgrown and could become an eyesore.
They have mowed a small area and have now planted along the fence they have erected which is clearly an attempt to grow a hedge. They are in their late 60’s / early 70’s and can barely get across the makeshift bridge to access the land anyway!
I cannot find any evidence that they own the land so I am intending to ask them to provide evidence that it is theirs. If they cannot / will not I will assume that they are trying to claim adverse possession of unregistered land.
My ideal outcome would be to share the land and upkeep. I think this is unlikely now, but I am also not prepared to enter a stressful and costly land dispute.
I think it’s unlikely due to the duration of time and their age but if 12 years pass and they try to acquire possessory title, do I have any grounds to object?
In the shorter term, if I decide to access the land, do they have any grounds to take civil action for trespass?
Any thoughts or advise on how to approach this?
Thanks
IANAL, but have been tied up in a boundary dispute for the last 12 months.
I assume you are in England? My experience is in Wales.
My legal advice was you cannot claim adverse possession for unregistered land. So step one is first registration. Which ever of you applies, the other can contest their application.
This may lead to a tribunal setup similar to a court case to decide who get registration- costs can be awarded....
The losing party, can subsequently attempt to claim adverse possession
Don't take my word on this, as I'm just some bloke on a forum. My own circumstances may not be the same, so this may not apply - get professional advice from a solicitor with experience in this area.
Anything involving the land registry will not happen fast -of that I am fairly confident.
I assume you are in England? My experience is in Wales.
My legal advice was you cannot claim adverse possession for unregistered land. So step one is first registration. Which ever of you applies, the other can contest their application.
This may lead to a tribunal setup similar to a court case to decide who get registration- costs can be awarded....
The losing party, can subsequently attempt to claim adverse possession
Don't take my word on this, as I'm just some bloke on a forum. My own circumstances may not be the same, so this may not apply - get professional advice from a solicitor with experience in this area.
Anything involving the land registry will not happen fast -of that I am fairly confident.
Edited by OverSteery on Thursday 1st July 17:57
I have no idea how these things work but it seems bizarre to me that either your ownership of the stream bed doesn’t continue along the bottom of the red plot (including yellow), or they own the stream bed and yellow. Why on earth would that little section not have been included in one of the properties?
Which is the older house?
Which is the older house?
JeffreyD said:
Whatever happens your time for adverse possession is reset as they have prevented you demonstrating exclusive control of the land, and you haven't been there long enough to claim they are evicting you.
which sounds to me as though they know exactly what they're doing and have probably been waiting for your seller to leave so they can do what they've done without objections.OverSteery said:
My legal advice was you cannot claim adverse possession for unregistered land.
That doesn't read correct.The process for adverse possession is different for registered and unregistered land.
That the neighbours over the stream have reset the adverse possession by putting up a fence to attempt to gain exclusive control of a piece of unregistered land would confirm my point that you can adversely possess unregistered land.
With regard to the OP, if he regularly climbs over the fence to show that the neigbours haven't achieved control as if they are the owners it defeats the neighbours attempt at adverse possession.
If it's unregistered, I am not sure anybody can do anything if the OP trims the newly planted possibly future hedge if it blocks his view or reduces the light entering his property.
If the OP borrows a goat and tethers it so it doesn't wander off and to keep the vegetation down on the piece of unregisterd land that would also undermine the neighbours attempt at adverse possession.
Edited by carinaman on Thursday 1st July 22:25
Could this be a fair reflection -
Green property, at some point in the past, sold their land adjacent to the road to build your house.
Dark blue is the land that made up the other pair of houses, which would seem to be more likely to have the yellow triangle as part of their land.
Is the boundary really kinked like that or is it a straight line down from between the other properties?
Green property, at some point in the past, sold their land adjacent to the road to build your house.
Dark blue is the land that made up the other pair of houses, which would seem to be more likely to have the yellow triangle as part of their land.
Is the boundary really kinked like that or is it a straight line down from between the other properties?
Edited by essayer on Friday 2nd July 10:49
essayer said:
Could this be a fair reflection -
Green property, at some point in the past, sold their land adjacent to the road to build your house.
Dark blue is the land that made up the other pair of houses, which would seem to be more likely to have the yellow triangle as part of their land.
Is the boundary really kinked like that or is it a straight line down from between the other properties?
The logical view is as above....Green property, at some point in the past, sold their land adjacent to the road to build your house.
Dark blue is the land that made up the other pair of houses, which would seem to be more likely to have the yellow triangle as part of their land.
Is the boundary really kinked like that or is it a straight line down from between the other properties?
Asked further up, but how do the neighbours access their property? Where is the turn in from the road.
If the neighbours do have this in their deeds, you might well come unstuck. I don't suppose they have a duty to show you, but maybe approaching them to discuss the issue would be best.
PH User said:
From the look of your plot that bit of land would be a good thing for you.
Yes, it's certainly more accessible from our plot than it is from theirs easyhome said:
I have no idea how these things work but it seems bizarre to me that either your ownership of the stream bed doesn’t continue along the bottom of the red plot (including yellow), or they own the stream bed and yellow. Why on earth would that little section not have been included in one of the properties?
Which is the older house?
Agreed, the title plans are per the blue and red outlines in the picture above, making it all a little uncertain. Our property is older by ~170 yearsWhich is the older house?
bobtail4x4 said:
so someone stole the piece of land you wanted to steal?
Yes, although if it is unregistered and does not belong to anyone, we would have liked some use of itthreadlock said:
JeffreyD said:
Whatever happens your time for adverse possession is reset as they have prevented you demonstrating exclusive control of the land, and you haven't been there long enough to claim they are evicting you.
which sounds to me as though they know exactly what they're doing and have probably been waiting for your seller to leave so they can do what they've done without objections.Chrisgr31 said:
How do the neighbours access their land? Where is the road etc?
carinaman said:
OverSteery said:
My legal advice was you cannot claim adverse possession for unregistered land.
That doesn't read correct.The process for adverse possession is different for registered and unregistered land.
That the neighbours over the stream have reset the adverse possession by putting up a fence to attempt to gain exclusive control of a piece of unregistered land would confirm my point that you can adversely possess unregistered land.
With regard to the OP, if he regularly climbs over the fence to show that the neigbours haven't achieved control as if they are the owners it defeats the neighbours attempt at adverse possession.
If it's unregistered, I am not sure anybody can do anything if the OP trims the newly planted possibly future hedge if it blocks his view or reduces the light entering his property.
If the OP borrows a goat and tethers it so it doesn't wander off and to keep the vegetation down on the piece of unregisterd land that would also undermine the neighbours attempt at adverse possession.
Edited by carinaman on Thursday 1st July 22:25
essayer said:
Is their property (in red) registered? If so why isn’t the triangle part of it
The history of the various houses would be interesting.
Can you block a stream with a log? Might be worth dobbing them in to the Environment Agency
Yes the red part of their property is registered. They claim that the triangle is not shown on the current title plan but is shown on historic documents. I have not found any evidence of these historic docs but will be asking them to produce themThe history of the various houses would be interesting.
Can you block a stream with a log? Might be worth dobbing them in to the Environment Agency
Our property is a converted Georgian Methodist chapel (built 1826) and the house of the neighbour in question is a 1990's construction I would say. The house directly behind us was built on land that used to belong to the chapel.
The log they have laid across the streak with affixed handrail is inaccessible to them now as the reeds around the stream have swamped it. The alternative access point they have is to come around on to the road and climb over the fence which is lined with a thick hedge.. and they are in their late 60's / early 70's so is quite amusing to watch. I really don't know how or why they think they will get any enjoyment out of the land.
mr rusty said:
I would cut down their fence and carry on using the land. If it's not their land, they can't claim ownership. There is a forum over at Gardenlaw with several experts in this field. Post in the boundaries forum.
That's a good shout, will do, thank you Durzel said:
Looking at just the red and blue outlines, would it be right in saying that they have erected a fence outside of the red boundary for their property, along one of the edges of yours?
i.e. this:
If so, it seems like you can just pull that fence down to me?
But, it appears they are claiming that that yellow part is on a set of their documents - which if true, means you can't destroy their new fence as it is on their property.i.e. this:
If so, it seems like you can just pull that fence down to me?
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff