2022 changes?

[tight fart]

We keep hearing about the dramatic changes for next year but what are they?

[parabolica]

autosport

wiki

[HTP99]

What are the bits on top of the front wheels for, I've asked this previously on a similar topic, it wasn't answered?

[Exige77]

HTP99 said:

What are the bits on top of the front wheels for, I've asked this previously on a similar topic, it wasn't answered?

As the front wings have been greatly reduced, these wheel wings help move the air over the tyres.

[TheDeuce]

For those not willing to Google, the details probably aren't very important.

The cars will be sucked to the ground by magic instead of massive and complex wings - more overtaking will happen.

The cars will have bare fat rims too, innit

[Carlososos]

I haven’t read much about the changes but from what your saying they are going towards ground effect cars? Didn’t they stop doing this for fear of lots of airborne accidents?

[SmoothCriminal]

[TheDeuce]

Carlososos said:

I haven’t read much about the changes but from what your saying they are going towards ground effect cars? Didn’t they stop doing this for fear of lots of airborne accidents?

Things have moved on, including the FIA's understanding of how teams exploited ground effect. The theory is that the new regs allow 'enough' potential for GE to offset the reliance on aero downforce and solve the dirty air problem - but without allowing so much GE that the cars can pull 7g lateral and take off if they break the air 'seal' with the ground...

We have an entire new era to see how the above theory plays out

[TheDeuce]

SmoothCriminal said:

Never will a car race this new era that looks as nice as that

[DanielSan]

TheDeuce said:

Never will a car race this new era that looks as nice as that

I can't remember where I've seen/read/heard it but rumours already are that the most of the grid is going to look different to how the FIA have intended the cars to look with these new rules. It wouldn't be a shock after the cock nose debacle though.

[Drawweight]

I wonder if we’ll ever see a new ‘innovation’ again that goes completely against current technology?

I’m talking out the box ideas like the Tyrrell P34 or have the regulations been tightened up so much that it’s impossible to design anything that will pass them.

Or more likely are current cars at the peak of technology and it’s impossible to go left field and produce a car that is any better.

[SturdyHSV]

Drawweight said:

I wonder if we’ll ever see a new ‘innovation’ again that goes completely against current technology?

I’m talking out the box ideas like the Tyrrell P34 or have the regulations been tightened up so much that it’s impossible to design anything that will pass them.

Or more likely are current cars at the peak of technology and it’s impossible to go left field and produce a car that is any better.

It's certainly not impossible to produce a car that's better in terms of quicker lap times if there were no rules, but as Formula 1 is about designing the best car within the rules, some might say within the formula, then there will be limitations.

Certainly the regulations have been tightened up enough that it's unlikely they've missed out 'number of wheels' or 'using a rocket booster' etc. as developments.

Mercedes' DAS system was a pretty out of the box idea and that was only last year, so it's definitely still possible, just not as outrageous or perhaps even that visually obvious.

I'd imagine some of the power train stuff is pretty fancy too.

[TheDeuce]

SturdyHSV said:

Drawweight said:

I wonder if we’ll ever see a new ‘innovation’ again that goes completely against current technology?

I’m talking out the box ideas like the Tyrrell P34 or have the regulations been tightened up so much that it’s impossible to design anything that will pass them.

Or more likely are current cars at the peak of technology and it’s impossible to go left field and produce a car that is any better.

It's certainly not impossible to produce a car that's better in terms of quicker lap times if there were no rules, but as Formula 1 is about designing the best car within the rules, some might say within the formula, then there will be limitations.

Certainly the regulations have been tightened up enough that it's unlikely they've missed out 'number of wheels' or 'using a rocket booster' etc. as developments.

Mercedes' DAS system was a pretty out of the box idea and that was only last year, so it's definitely still possible, just not as outrageous or perhaps even that visually obvious.

I'd imagine some of the power train stuff is pretty fancy too.

I agree... As regulations grow ever tighter and now cost saving initiatives too - such as standardised parts, areas of potential innovation are reduced.

But, that just puts more sets of innovative brains and eyes on the areas that remain. That's exactly why we saw DAS, with freedom to innovate generally curtailed, some clever people found themselves staring at a boring old steering rack in a new way

[tight fart]

TheDeuce said:

For those not willing to Google, the details probably aren't very important.

The cars will be sucked to the ground by magic instead of massive and complex wings - more overtaking will happen.

The cars will have bare fat rims too, innit

Grumpy old git, I thought it would be ok to have a post here to discuss and learn.

[TheDeuce]

tight fart said:

TheDeuce said:

For those not willing to Google, the details probably aren't very important.

The cars will be sucked to the ground by magic instead of massive and complex wings - more overtaking will happen.

The cars will have bare fat rims too, innit

Grumpy old git, I thought it would be ok to have a post here to discuss and learn.

Couldn't resist

Yes the thread makes sense and will probably grow to 100+ pages after pre season testing next year.

[Muzzer79]

The (theoretical) car looks good and I like the 18 inch rim change.

I just wish the cars weren't going to be so heavy......pushing 800kgs in 2022.

Alonso's title-winning Renault in 2005 was just over 600kgs, including driver.

The minimum weight in 1990 was 500kgs......

[kiseca]

SturdyHSV said:

Drawweight said:

I wonder if we’ll ever see a new ‘innovation’ again that goes completely against current technology?

I’m talking out the box ideas like the Tyrrell P34 or have the regulations been tightened up so much that it’s impossible to design anything that will pass them.

Or more likely are current cars at the peak of technology and it’s impossible to go left field and produce a car that is any better.

It's certainly not impossible to produce a car that's better in terms of quicker lap times if there were no rules, but as Formula 1 is about designing the best car within the rules, some might say within the formula, then there will be limitations.

Certainly the regulations have been tightened up enough that it's unlikely they've missed out 'number of wheels' or 'using a rocket booster' etc. as developments.

Mercedes' DAS system was a pretty out of the box idea and that was only last year, so it's definitely still possible, just not as outrageous or perhaps even that visually obvious.

I'd imagine some of the power train stuff is pretty fancy too.

Can't say for sure whether or not we'll ever see anything wild and obvious again but I think we will. It always looks easy and obvious in hindsight, but until someone thinks of it, noone can imagine it. And when you can't imagine it, in any era, you look at whatever the current cars at the time are and think that's the pinnacle, we've seen everything. And then someone revolutionises something in a way that noone saw coming. Not us, not even the teams themselves who are looking really hard for exactly that kind of advantage. It's never been easy. If it was, we'd see a lot more of it, a lot more of the time.

And every time the rules change, it's a fresh playing field with scope for brand new ideas, which is why the gap usually widens. Very recently we've had DAS and high rake vs low rake. A wing that bends but doesn't wobble. A turbo where the turbine and compressor are nowhere near eachother. Go back a bit further and you have double diffusers, f-ducts, mass dampers.... in 1998 when the cars got narrower Adrian Newey, trying to recover the stability from the width, decided he could restore that by making the car longer instead. I wasn't sure if he was talking about handling or aerodynamics but I assume the latter. Anyway the McLaren turned up looking weird and long compared to all the other cars which looked weird and narrow, and lapped everyone except themselves.

So 2022's rule changes, just by happening, will bring the next revolution as some team gets it spectacularly right by being inventive, and the rest spend the next 4 years trying to catch up.

Edited by kiseca on Friday 2nd July 17:40

[TheDeuce]

kiseca said:

Can't say for sure whether or not we'll ever see anything wild and obvious again but I think we will. It always looks easy and obvious in hindsight, but until someone thinks of it, noone can imagine it. And when you can't imagine it, in any era, you look at whatever the current cars at the time are and think that's the pinnacle, we've seen everything. And then someone revolutionises something in a way that noone saw coming. Not us, not even the teams themselves who are looking really hard for exactly that kind of advantage. It's never been easy. If it was, we'd see a lot more of it, a lot more of the time.

And every time the rules change, it's a fresh playing field with scope for brand new ideas, which is why the gap usually widens. Very recently we've had DAS and high rake vs low rake. A wing that bends but doesn't wobble. A turbo where the turbine and compressor are nowhere near eachother. Go back a bit further and you have double diffusers, f-ducts, mass dampers.... in 1998 when the cars got narrower Adrian Newey, trying to recover the stability from the width, decided he could restore that by making the car longer instead. I wasn't sure if he was talking about handling or aerodynamics but I assume the latter. Anyway the McLaren turned up looking weird and long compared to all the other cars which looked weird and narrow, and lapped everyone except themselves.

So 2022's rule changes, just by happening, will bring the next revolution as some team gets it spectacularly right by being inventive, and the rest spend the next 4 years trying to catch up.

Edited by kiseca on Friday 2nd July 17:40

Highly likely to be one of the top three that get it most 'right' - purely because the new regs have been roughly known for 2-3 years now and the top teams are the only ones who have had excess money to spend on R&D well in advance of this season.

However... It is always possible David can fell Goliath if another team has a genius idea

[kiseca]

TheDeuce said:

kiseca said:

Can't say for sure whether or not we'll ever see anything wild and obvious again but I think we will. It always looks easy and obvious in hindsight, but until someone thinks of it, noone can imagine it. And when you can't imagine it, in any era, you look at whatever the current cars at the time are and think that's the pinnacle, we've seen everything. And then someone revolutionises something in a way that noone saw coming. Not us, not even the teams themselves who are looking really hard for exactly that kind of advantage. It's never been easy. If it was, we'd see a lot more of it, a lot more of the time.

And every time the rules change, it's a fresh playing field with scope for brand new ideas, which is why the gap usually widens. Very recently we've had DAS and high rake vs low rake. A wing that bends but doesn't wobble. A turbo where the turbine and compressor are nowhere near eachother. Go back a bit further and you have double diffusers, f-ducts, mass dampers.... in 1998 when the cars got narrower Adrian Newey, trying to recover the stability from the width, decided he could restore that by making the car longer instead. I wasn't sure if he was talking about handling or aerodynamics but I assume the latter. Anyway the McLaren turned up looking weird and long compared to all the other cars which looked weird and narrow, and lapped everyone except themselves.

So 2022's rule changes, just by happening, will bring the next revolution as some team gets it spectacularly right by being inventive, and the rest spend the next 4 years trying to catch up.

Edited by kiseca on Friday 2nd July 17:40

Highly likely to be one of the top three that get it most 'right' - purely because the new regs have been roughly known for 2-3 years now and the top teams are the only ones who have had excess money to spend on R&D well in advance of this season.

However... It is always possible David can fell Goliath if another team has a genius idea

Yes I agree, the top teams attract the best minds as well as the best drivers, and they have access to the best equipment, so the innovation is more likely to come from them. Even Brawn, with their double diffuser.. the idea and testing came from the money Honda sank into the top class facilities that are still behind the Mercedes team now. When Lotus developed the 78 and 79 they were one of the few teams with access to a rolling road wind tunnel, which was critical to the development of ground effects. It wasn't an idea that popped up in someone's head, which they sketched down, built, tested and it worked, it was practically an accident discovered while trying to improve the cooling system. And once discovered, pretty much the whole thing was driven by wind tunnel experiments and calculations. McLaren went and partnered with the world's top producer of carbon fibre structures when John Barnard developed the carbon honeycomb MP4.

[tight fart]

Is it that bigger change?
The engines are the same as this year and development is frozen.
Could be good for Honda.