Selling.....has online auctions solve the issue

[YoungMD]

So in my mind there has always been a bit of an issue between selling price and buying price, especially in the Porsche market where buyers like the security and simplicity of a trade seller and private sellers with a limited market struggle to achieve retail prices.

Looking now at the prices collecting cars achieves and some of the other online auctions I'm wondering if in fact this is something that is bridging the gap nicely, it seems ?? That buyers are more comfortable buying for private sellers on these sites, of course it could be the current market but maybe it is getting easier....thoughts appreciated i am thinking of selling a couple of cars very soon......

[Pistonsquirter]

Both 986 & 997 bought and sold on eBay, trick is finding an enthusiast buyer, and seller for that matter, imho.
To maintain sanity when receiving ridiculous messages & offers I find responding with "You could get yourself a nice [insert inferior car of choice here] for that money".
Obviously not forecourt prices, but trade sellers probably buy their tat at auction before charging you a premium for it anyway (source: Take a look at the MOT histories of some forecourt cars)

[F6C]

YoungMD said:

So in my mind there has always been a bit of an issue between selling price and buying price, especially in the Porsche market where buyers like the security and simplicity of a trade seller and private sellers with a limited market struggle to achieve retail prices.

May be misinterpreting what you're saying, but surely it's totally correct that private sellers should struggle to achieve retail prices?

Retail prices are and should be higher than private sale prices. While it may often be hard to assert your rights, buying from a trade outfit comes with, at minimum, protection in law which does not apply to a private transaction. Plus, if you do your due diligence re trader reputation, you can improve your odds pretty dramatically of buying from an outfit where you've got at least a reasonable chance of being looked after if there's a major issue.

The Collecting Cars thing I don't totally understand. Could be wrong, but as far as I can tell, if you win the auction, you have to pay the fee. The end. Even if you turn up to collect and the car doesn't exist / has been set on fire that morning by accident / whatever, tough. The whole thing looks like a little bit of a confidence scam - fancy pictures and flowery prose, plus the notional backing of a big 'name', all designed to imbue confidence without actually being in any way substantive, while the outfit itself has zero liability, guarantees nothing and even insists you pay up if the transaction implodes through no fault of your own. Again, I could be wrong, but that's what the Ts&Cs seem to imply.

Nice business model and good case study in the power of branding, but doesn't seem like a great platform for buyers.

I think there will be an ongoing market for that kind of superficially polished and curated online transaction and part of the market was heading that way anyway, Covid just accelerated that. But not convinced that it means everyone is going to be happy to pay through the nose for private cars with no consumer protection going forward and the trade are out of a job.

[KenC]

The issue I encountered was that the online auction house "recommended" a reserve significantly below desired sell price, giving an example of £7,500 for a £10,000 car, in order to stimulate bidding as the car was definitely going to sell. Of course, this means you have to run a risk that you have to sell below market value.

I assumed I'd set the reserve at a price I'd be happy to sell at, but no, that is not how it works.

I got the impression all they wanted was a sale at any price to get their commission rather than to help me maximise the return.

[larrylamb11]

KenC said:

The issue I encountered was that the online auction house "recommended" a reserve significantly below desired sell price, giving an example of £7,500 for a £10,000 car, in order to stimulate bidding as the car was definitely going to sell. Of course, this means you have to run a risk that you have to sell below market value.

I assumed I'd set the reserve at a price I'd be happy to sell at, but no, that is not how it works.

I got the impression all they wanted was a sale at any price to get their commission rather than to help me maximise the return.

^this... It's long been the way that the traditional houses endeavour to set the lowest reserve possible, often making calls to reduce reserves further on auction day in order to shift lots... It's not uncommon for cars to be sold at just on reserve leaving a sour taste for seller, but providing a bargain for the buyer!

[MDL111]

I bought a car via CC, but from somebody on Pistonheads, so I was comfortable with the risk of it - not sure how comfortable I would be without knowing the person - there is something to be said for the minimum protection (perceived or real is tbd I guess) of buying from a dealer - esp if you buy cars unseen, which is what I have done on all but two of my car purchases during my life
The big advantage of CC is that there are some many cars / such a variety, which are all well photographed - so it gives me lots of ideas of what I would like to own. Latest one is a 993 GT2 copy - I bid a little on the one that was sold recently, but ultimately I figured another RHD car is maybe one too many esp as I don’t really have the funds for another car atm… didn’t keep me from calling a Porsche builder in Germany to ask what it would cost to build one nowadays …

[MDL111]

Ah and it gives you the option to basically conclude a transaction while drunk ….you might regret it a little the next day, but as you already paid the fee you might as well go through with it

[finmac]

Interesting question, recently sold my wife’s older mini via CC. My experience was request to set a low reserve then as the auction approached the end constant pressure to lower the reserve and get it “on sale” with the comment that “it will likely generate a decent jump in prices”. I held my ground with the original reserve which was a bit lower than I actually wanted and it went £500 or so over that. So, in summary a mixed result really. Would I use again? not convinced to be honest.

[carpah]

Yes, I sold a cherished number plate on CC.

There was constant pressure to lower the reserve to zero which was tiresome but it did sell well in the end.

I found it weird that CC never gave me a contract to sign, nor an acceptance of T&Cs. They never asked for proof of ID or my address, Just a scan of the retention doc (which probably wouldn't be too hard to forge)

The transaction went smoothly. The buyer and I settled the transaction without CC in the loop (which is standard, I believe).

I did feel a bit for the buyer as he had to send me the money (six grand) before I would post him the retention doc.

On the basis of that experience, I would be pretty careful buying through CC

[Cheib]

I’ve heard similar tales of negotiating hard on the reserve and placing a lot of pressure on to lift the reserve, I suppose behind all that slick advertising and social media work they will hassle like any other car dealer to get a deal done….the flip side of the capped fees over £100k is they are totally agnostic abut the sale price.

I did listen to an interview with the guy that founded “The Market” he said cars listed with “No reserve” had twice as many views which I thought was interesting.

[YoungMD]

Very interesting comments on CC perhaps more of a buyers market on there .... provided you are lucky....

My issue is this ...as a buyer I never trust a car salesman its kind of business 101. Case in point we bought a range rover from a very good high end garage, they serviced and gave it a clear bill of health after purchase I got land rover to do an inspection and they found £1,700 worth of brakes etc worked needed and this is pretty common they are of course all about maximizing the spread between trade and retail.

Far better to buy privately get independently inspected and then no conflict of interest is possible. I just simply don't understand the point or need for a middle man who is only concerned with increasing the spread, get an independent inspection from somebody that has an incentive to be 100% accurate.

As for selling.....ermmmm I think I am still lost as the best possible route....

[Cheib]

Seems like a great way to sell. For a lot of people they do not want to sell privately because of the risks and ball ache involved,….if you’re selling say a 488 and advertise it privately do you really want people turning up at your home to inspect it ?

[F6C]

YoungMD said:

Very interesting comments on CC perhaps more of a buyers market on there .... provided you are lucky....

My issue is this ...as a buyer I never trust a car salesman its kind of business 101. Case in point we bought a range rover from a very good high end garage, they serviced and gave it a clear bill of health after purchase I got land rover to do an inspection and they found £1,700 worth of brakes etc worked needed and this is pretty common they are of course all about maximizing the spread between trade and retail.

Far better to buy privately get independently inspected and then no conflict of interest is possible. I just simply don't understand the point or need for a middle man who is only concerned with increasing the spread, get an independent inspection from somebody that has an incentive to be 100% accurate.

As for selling.....ermmmm I think I am still lost as the best possible route....

Indeed, so what's the benefit of CC for the buyer, barring small possibility of a bargain (assuming seller honours the sale if it ends up cheap, unclear if that's something they can be forced to do)?

CC guarantees nothing re condition or really even existence of the car as far as I can see. And when would you inspect? Before you win the auction - so you pay for an inspection and then someone else might win the auction? Or after, find the car is a dud but are still liable for the CC auction fees because the terms and conditions say you must do your due diligence up front...

At the fringes I can see the benefit - the odd bargain. But most of the time, would have thought buyers better off elsewhere.

[PhilF329]

I’ve sold a fairly high value cherished reg on CC - I stuck to my reserve and it sold, the buyer still got a bit of a bargain IMHO. For them, I guess it was nervy but I provided means of verifying my ID so they could pay with confidence. I have also bought cars unseen a few times at auction. Would I buy or sell with them again? Yes but with the usual safeguards / caveats on any remote private sale or purchase - ideally you need to see it first hand

[MDL111]

Cheib said:

Seems like a great way to sell. For a lot of people they do not want to sell privately because of the risks and ball ache involved,….if you’re selling say a 488 and advertise it privately do you really want people turning up at your home to inspect it ?

What I do not quite get though is why fewer people would inspect the car. Would you not go about buying the same way as for any other private sale (my drunk bidding example being the exception) - which then is the same hassle for the seller?

[Cheib]

MDL111 said:

Cheib said:

Seems like a great way to sell. For a lot of people they do not want to sell privately because of the risks and ball ache involved,….if you’re selling say a 488 and advertise it privately do you really want people turning up at your home to inspect it ?

What I do not quite get though is why fewer people would inspect the car. Would you not go about buying the same way as for any other private sale (my drunk bidding example being the exception) - which then is the same hassle for the seller?

No, neither do I. Apparently 90% of buyers don’’t inspect the cars which I find incredible. I have only considered buying one car seriously on CC, had it PPI’d which revealed a small cosmetic issue which would have been annoying and moderately expensive to fix. Car has subsequently been sold again…descriptions showed said fault this time.

[philcray]

Re not inspecting or even going to have a look at the vehicle, CC have used clever marketing to give the impression that vehicles advertised there are a cut above the rest so you can buy with confidence. This may or may not be true but I am sure there must be people who have bought cars, especially with the Lockdown boom, thinking they will have some comeback if things are not as good as they look on the photos.

I recall seeing the article recently where Harris bought a Mondial through CC. Surprisingly, despite being a 40 years old Ferrari, it was mechanically solid as a rock when he filmed it being inspected after the purchase... all gives a feeling of confidence for buyers using CC

[Illya Kuryakin]

philcray said:

Re not inspecting or even going to have a look at the vehicle, CC have used clever marketing to give the impression that vehicles advertised there are a cut above the rest so you can buy with confidence. This may or may not be true but I am sure there must be people who have bought cars, especially with the Lockdown boom, thinking they will have some comeback if things are not as good as they look on the photos.

I recall seeing the article recently where Harris bought a Mondial through CC. Surprisingly, despite being a 40 years old Ferrari, it was mechanically solid as a rock when he filmed it being inspected after the purchase... all gives a feeling of confidence for buyers using CC

If you're referring to Mr Chris Harris then as an old sceptic i am aware he is involved with CC having done the Youtube video on the Leonard Collection earlier this year. I am certain his media influence bolstered the £8 Million Final sale price of the Collection.

[F6C]

Illya Kuryakin said:

If you're referring to Mr Chris Harris then as an old sceptic i am aware he is involved with CC having done the Youtube video on the Leonard Collection earlier this year. I am certain his media influence bolstered the £8 Million Final sale price of the Collection.

Don't think you have to be a sceptic / cynic to register the impact of Harris' brand on that kind of thing. That's surely the idea and nothing really wrong with that?

For me the arguably more pertinent question is whether that (Harris' brand) and the glossy pictures is effective in convincing punters that they're getting something they clearly are not. As a buyer, what are you getting from CC for your fee? No guarantee of even a car that exists let alone meets the description, as far as I can tell - you are liable for the fee if you end up the highest bidder, regardless (again, happy to be shown that's wrong). I mean, if you want to buy a car unseen and with zero guarantees, you hardly need CC to do that!

Nor are you getting access to something that can't be had elsewhere. Sure, a given car might only be on CC. But in a broader sense, the vast, vast majority of cars are not on CC. I guess if you definitely want to buy unseen, then the CC platform has many more detailed images than is normally the case, so it may be preferable for that kind of transaction. I just can't imagine buying a car based on pictures unless I was buying it from a source known to me and for which I had a high level of trust.

Anyway, I think it's mostly a confidence trick. It's cleverly done, to be sure. But I think that, ultimately, the 'product' you get for your fee as a buyer is pretty crappy and the platform generally is rather money grubbing.

[WD-40]

Cheib said:

No, neither do I. Apparently 90% of buyers don’’t inspect the cars which I find incredible. I have only considered buying one car seriously on CC, had it PPI’d which revealed a small cosmetic issue which would have been annoying and moderately expensive to fix. Car has subsequently been sold again…descriptions showed said fault this time.

I feel like CC try and discourage viewings. The comments are littered with potential buyers and sellers struggling to make contact (either not knowing how to do it - and let's be honest, it's not clear - or requests sent to CC not being responded to). I'd be livid if I was selling and they didn't pass on the contact details of a potential buyer to come and view (if I was happy to have viewings)