What would YOU change about this 997 CSR ...

[Slippydiff]

to enable you to part with 80,000-100,000 of your hard earned Great British Pounds for it ?

You're in the market for a 997 based, special, normally aspirated, manual or PDK 911. It's for daily use, it needs to be built to your exact specification : Exterior colour, interior colour, trim, seats, steering wheel, suspension, brakes, exhaust etc.

You want it to look/sound discrete enough that you can turn up at a client's workplace without looking like you're taking the p*ss, but you also want a car that's dynamically superior to a 997 C2/4/ GTS and closer to a GT3 when you're in the mood/on the right road, but more user friendly than any watercooled 996/7 GT car when you're not.

And to remove THAT big elephant in the room, you're NOT in the market for a GT3/RS, be that a 996/997 or 991.

You don't want a 996 for whatever reason, (too old, the looks aren't your thing, chocolate engines, not fast enough etc) neither do you want a 991.1 or 991.2 C2/4/GTS (too big, too flash, too new, too "digital" etc)

Sure you could "downspec" a Gen 1 (or 2 at a push) 997 GT3, but the end result still wouldn't be sufficiently refined enough to be a daily driver (your words, not mine you understand) and the GT3 rear wings are just too in your face. And let's remove the 997 GT3's from the equation, as the market has spoken, and in 12 months time Gen 1 997 GT3's are £110-120K and a bit like M3 CSL's, their owners aren't selling, so there's quite literally, none on the market.

Effectively what you're looking for is a 997 GT3 Touring (or a 997 R crossed with a 2wd 997 Sport Classic)

So could you justify spending £80-100K on a bespoke non-GT 997 based car ? and what would need to be done to something like the CSR Snakebite to enable you to justify spending those sort of numbers on it ?

And just for the sake of clarification, an engine upgrade for both power and reliability, or indeed an engine swap (from the Porsche F6 NA watercooled range) is entirely possible, and before you ask, no you can't have a Mezger engine/transmission bolted into the engine bay ...

The stage (and cheque for £90K) is yours ...

[markiii]

I wouldn't change much but could build it cheaper

[churchie2856]

Snakebite, but based on a 997 Gen 2 3.8S with PDK for all round daily use. I'd want the Porsche Sport button retro fit too, so basically the option of the quicker shift programme, less the silly little dash pod clock. Also Porsche classic double-DIN head unit too (so CarPlay). I would also want the electronic adjustable dampers from whoever RPM Technik use for CSR, so I could have comfort as well as sport settings. Finally I'd want a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty.

[Slippydiff]

churchie2856 said:

Snakebite, but based on a 997 Gen 2 3.8S with PDK for all round daily use. I'd want the Porsche Sport button retro fit too, so basically the option of the quicker shift programme, less the silly little dash pod clock. Also Porsche classic double-DIN head unit too (so CarPlay). I would also want the electronic adjustable dampers from whoever RPM Technik use for CSR, so I could have comfort as well as sport settings. Finally I'd want a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty.

I'd say all of that is easily achieved (KW provide RPMT with their bespoke dampers).
Would you be prepared to give RPMT the benefit of servicing the car during the 3 years of the unlimited mileage (or say 20k miles a year) warranty ? Especially if they gave you a courtesy car and returned the car to you fully valeted ?

[Slippydiff]

markiii said:

I wouldn't change much but could build it cheaper

I've no doubt the car could've been built more cheaply, but the likes of RPMT have to pay their technicians a decent salary and they also have to make a profit whilst shouldering ever-increasing overheads.

[markiii]

All true horses for courses

[Heathrow]

I'd use and enjoy it as a daily so round my way it would need axle lift, a slight raising of the ride height and I would have possibly chosen 18 inch rims and rear seats for a bit more compliance and useability.

Be in no doubt, it's a very special car in the metal this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc9JwvSf-lc

[Slippydiff]

Heathrow said:

I'd use and enjoy it as a daily so round my way it would need axle lift, a slight raising of the ride height and I would have possibly chosen 18 inch rims and rear seats for a bit more compliance and useability.

Be in no doubt, it's a very special car in the metal this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc9JwvSf-lc

The 997 was available with an 18" wheel option, though I don't recall ever having seen one in the flesh with them fitted. Personally I'm with you on this, though I'd probably choose wheels which filled the arches out more convincingly (a la Gen 1 997 GT3 wheel widths and offsets)
Leaving the rear seats in is about as easy as it gets !! Likewise raising the ride height.

Though much as I like the Gen 1 997 aerokit/GT3 front bumper, it could be substituted for the standard OE front bumper along with a front splitter/airdam that would be cheaper and more of a consumable :



Front lift option is available, though not cheap :

https://www.design911.co.uk/fu/prod13928/KW-HLS-4-...

[ATM]

Slippydiff said:

You want it to look/sound discrete enough that you can turn up at a client's workplace without looking like you're taking the p*ss

There is so much to unpack here I think it's virtually impossible for any 2 people's views to align. The question of discretion and how you think your clients might feel is almost impossible to answer. My current outlook on life is I really don't give a flying F what other people might think. But that's probably why I have been much less successful in life to most of my friends. So that's why I'd want my 997 to look like this. But painted pink or yellow or pink and yellow. Go Big or Go Home.

[Slippydiff]

ATM said:

There is so much to unpack here I think it's virtually impossible for any 2 people's views to align. The question of discretion and how you think your clients might feel is almost impossible to answer. My current outlook on life is I really don't give a flying F what other people might think. But that's probably why I have been much less successful in life to most of my friends. So that's why I'd want my 997 to look like this. But painted pink or yellow or pink and yellow. Go Big or Go Home.

Back in 2005 I arrived at a client's in this once (the other half had left the interior light on in my daily, and it had flattened the battery) :



My client (who wasn't a petrolhead) thought it was wonderful.

This too got admiring glances from both old and young, male and female, and driving it generally felt like it brought a smile to people's faces :



Driving around in this however (and no disrespect intended to other 996 GT3 RS owners whatsoever) made me feel a complete prat :



And driving around in that Cup car would make me feel exactly the same now too. But truth be known, my perspective on these matters has changed massively, so much so that some months ago I passed a Gen 2 991 GT3RS on the motorway. Ten, maybe even five years ago, I'd have been thinking how awesome the car was and looked. But to me it now looks utterly incongruous and dare I say, a bit naff (again, no offence intended to owners of them).

[Cheib]

In the PH article about this car they said it cost £130k….maybe they includes the donor car too ?

Even at £100k I struggle to see the value. My 997 GTS would be a lot cheaper if I added KW suspension, lightweight flywheel and an LSD would come out a lot cheaper and have a more powerful engine. I realise that misses the point and thanks to rear seat delete, carbon ducktail and those buckets it will be a lighter car….but there really wouldn’t be much in it. The lightweight flywheel and suspension would be the upgrades I would be really interested in.

What I find amazing about cars like this is the owner goes to all this trouble and a few thousand miles later sells it. Seems to happen a lot to a lot of car builds. All bout the chase I guess.

[ATM]

Slippydiff said:

ATM said:

There is so much to unpack here I think it's virtually impossible for any 2 people's views to align. The question of discretion and how you think your clients might feel is almost impossible to answer. My current outlook on life is I really don't give a flying F what other people might think. But that's probably why I have been much less successful in life to most of my friends. So that's why I'd want my 997 to look like this. But painted pink or yellow or pink and yellow. Go Big or Go Home.

Back in 2005 I arrived at a client's in this once (the other half had left the interior light on in my daily, and it had flattened the battery) :



My client (who wasn't a petrolhead) thought it was wonderful.

I think you've hit the nail with your hammer. For me the 997 is not quite old enough to be appreciated by the average person as a classic no matter what you do to it. An older Porsche will always be so much cooler and can never be seen as tacky or in your face.

[Slippydiff]

Cheib said:

In the PH article about this car they said it cost £130k….maybe they includes the donor car too ?

Even at £100k I struggle to see the value. My 997 GTS would be a lot cheaper if I added KW suspension, lightweight flywheel and an LSD would come out a lot cheaper and have a more powerful engine. I realise that misses the point and thanks to rear seat delete, carbon ducktail and those buckets it will be a lighter car….but there really wouldn’t be much in it. The lightweight flywheel and suspension would be the upgrades I would be really interested in.

What I find amazing about cars like this is the owner goes to all this trouble and a few thousand miles later sells it. Seems to happen a lot to a lot of car builds. All bout the chase I guess.

I think you’re correct on the build price, I too assume that figure included the price of the donor car. Hence I used the figures of £80-100k as the price point for a CSR’ed 997.

That the Snakebite hasn’t sold at £80K isn’t a surprise, with the best will in the world, you’re not going to recoup the cost of a glass out, bare metal respray (along with the massive labour costs incurred) on something as mundane as a previously high mileage 997 C2.

The difference between £130K and £80K (or even £100K, is sizeable in the context of a car such as that being discussed.

At £130K you’re up against some pretty stiff competition from other manufacturers (though you might struggle with the combination of tactile, engaging, NA, manual, discrete and reliable...)

I not sure what the spec of you GTS is ? Manual, C2, carbon buckets, PCCB’s. If it is, it must still be a £60+K car ? (depending on its mileage obviously)
There’s no doubt the GTS was, and still is a very compelling proposition for a usable, quick NA 997.
Close to Gen 1 997 GT3 power but with everyday refinement and usability, AND what is now known to be one of the most reliable powerplants to have been engineered/built by Stuttgart. Which makes basing the Snakebite on a car/engine with what’s considered to be one of the least reliable powerplants to have emanated from Stuttgart, all the more mystifying.

Whilst I’m sure there is a large element of “the journey being better than the holiday” in a lot of these builds, I suspect there’s also an element of mission/budget creep too.

With the car stripped of its suspension, interior, engine, front bumper and engine cover, it would be all too easy to fall prey to a “Well, for another 10 hours labour we could strip the car and then you can have it repainted properly in any colour you like” type phonecall.

The fact that it’ll cost several thousand pounds to actually prepare and paint the car, THEN rebuild it, rather hides the full cost of such an undertaking.

I must admit, it would be interesting to know the labour content of the Snakebite build.

[Cheib]

Slippydiff said:

Cheib said:

In the PH article about this car they said it cost £130k….maybe they includes the donor car too ?

Even at £100k I struggle to see the value. My 997 GTS would be a lot cheaper if I added KW suspension, lightweight flywheel and an LSD would come out a lot cheaper and have a more powerful engine. I realise that misses the point and thanks to rear seat delete, carbon ducktail and those buckets it will be a lighter car….but there really wouldn’t be much in it. The lightweight flywheel and suspension would be the upgrades I would be really interested in.

What I find amazing about cars like this is the owner goes to all this trouble and a few thousand miles later sells it. Seems to happen a lot to a lot of car builds. All bout the chase I guess.

I think you’re correct on the build price, I too assume that figure included the price of the donor car. Hence I used the figures of £80-100k as the price point for a CSR’ed 997.

That the Snakebite hasn’t sold at £80K isn’t a surprise, with the best will in the world, you’re not going to recoup the cost of a glass out, bare metal respray (along with the massive labour costs incurred) on something as mundane as a previously high mileage 997 C2.

The difference between £130K and £80K (or even £100K, is sizeable in the context of a car such as that being discussed.

At £130K you’re up against some pretty stiff competition from other manufacturers (though you might struggle with the combination of tactile, engaging, NA, manual, discrete and reliable...)

I not sure what the spec of you GTS is ? Manual, C2, carbon buckets, PCCB’s. If it is, it must still be a £60+K car ? (depending on its mileage obviously)
There’s no doubt the GTS was, and still is a very compelling proposition for a usable, quick NA 997.
Close to Gen 1 997 GT3 power but with everyday refinement and usability, AND what is now known to be one of the most reliable powerplants to have been engineered/built by Stuttgart. Which makes basing the Snakebite on a car/engine with what’s considered to be one of the least reliable powerplants to have emanated from Stuttgart, all the more mystifying.

Whilst I’m sure there is a large element of “the journey being better than the holiday” in a lot of these builds, I suspect there’s also an element of mission/budget creep too.

With the car stripped of its suspension, interior, engine, front bumper and engine cover, it would be all too easy to fall prey to a “Well, for another 10 hours labour we could strip the car and then you can have it repainted properly in any colour you like” type phonecall.

The fact that it’ll cost several thousand pounds to actually prepare and paint the car, THEN rebuild it, rather hides the full cost of such an undertaking.

I must admit, it would be interesting to know the labour content of the Snakebite build.

My GTS is Manual, C2, 34k miles. No buckets or PCCB’s. Fairly high spec and has the factory SSK. Let’s say it’s a £65k car. You could spend £20k on suspension, LWFW, and some buckets and a Sharkwerks to release some sound. Not sure I’d really drive the car hard enough on the road to need an LSD.

Apart from what you say about it being a high meilege C2 which is undoubtedly a big issue the problem with this CSR is they’ve spent a lot of money and still got a relatively standard engine in it. That and the fact it’s the same price pretty much as a 997.1 GT3,

[IMI A]

I love modified cars and think this is CSR ace and has loads of x factor but unless everything is perfect for the new purchaser I would walk past this and buy the time warp gen 2 at Hexagon for £20k-£40k less. No brainer or am I missing something?

[guyvert1]

I think you're after something that doesn't really exist for the price you want to pay.

Modding is a rabbit hole, especailly on older pork, so unless you have buckets of spare cash and time then just dont do it.

[Slippydiff]

Cheib said:

My GTS is Manual, C2, 34k miles. No buckets or PCCB’s. Fairly high spec and has the factory SSK. Let’s say it’s a £65k car. You could spend £20k on suspension, LWFW, and some buckets and a Sharkwerks to release some sound. Not sure I’d really drive the car hard enough on the road to need an LSD.

Apart from what you say about it being a high meilege C2 which is undoubtedly a big issue the problem with this CSR is they’ve spent a lot of money and still got a relatively standard engine in it. That and the fact it’s the same price pretty much as a 997.1 GT3,

Your GTS is a great spec

One can't help but think that the biggest stumbling block to the CSR 's success in Gen 1 form (from a commercial perspective) are the Gen 1's M97 engine's well known reliability issues.

Whilst RPMT made some token gestures at ensuring its reliability, they were just that, tokens : A different thermostat, third radiator, Evans waterless coolant and a different/larger baffled oil sump, none of which would ensure I'd sleep well at night having spent £20-30K upgrading a car to CSR spec, let alone £80-100K !!

In their situation, I think I'd have called on the services of Hartech and addressed the bore scoring issue properly (along with the perceived threat of IMS failure) and in the process removed the real elephant in the room with Gen 1 997 ownership.
This "engine insurance policy" should really have been part of the CSR package, along with the option to have a 3.9/4.0 upgrade, sportier cams, exhaust manifolds etc at additional cost "whilst we're in there".

The much maligned M96/97 engines seems to have finally come of age, Flat Six Innovations in the States will now build you 4.3 litre 460hp monster for the princely sum of $50K :

FSi R43 with stock ecu and exhaust 420 fwhp : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nsZfl3qSQ4

and FSi R43 with ecu tune and uprated exhaust 460 fwhp : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vky6Ex6bjlo&t=...

They also do a $15K cheaper R40 conversion...

[Slippydiff]

guyvert1 said:

I think you're after something that doesn't really exist for the price you want to pay.

Modding is a rabbit hole, especailly on older pork, so unless you have buckets of spare cash and time then just dont do it.

Not sure if this is aimed at me ? If it is, I'm not for one moment suggesting I want to buy Snakebite or indeed build something equivalent, I'm merely trying to establish what others in the market for such a car, would want changed about the Snakebite to enable them to spend £80-100K on it (or indeed a similar car)

[Slippydiff]

IMI A said:

I love modified cars and think this is CSR ace and has loads of x factor but unless everything is perfect for the new purchaser I would walk past this and buy the time warp gen 2 at Hexagon for £20k-£40k less. No brainer or am I missing something?

Morning I, hope you're well ?
Nope, I don't think you're missing anything, but they are two very different cars, the Hexagon car will no doubt lose large chunks of its value if you were to use it as daily driver, plus which the C2 manual GTS is very rare beast indeed. The CSR Snakebite has been tailored to suit its owners every whim and is I dare say every bit as good to drive as the GTS, and possibly better (though most likely slower due to its horsepower deficit)

[IMI A]

Snakebite is stunning. It’s biggest rival is a stock car which is just as nice. Maybe not as arty that’s all. How much do people pay for art….me like 99% of people I’d just buy a lovely gen 1 for £35k.

I never felt C2S was a car you had to do anything to. Just a PSE. Gen 1 sounds a bit more like an old school 911 too. The gen 2 quieter I couldnt get on with the lack of sound even with PSE. I’ve driven both. Gen 2 goes like the wind. Very fast car mate. Even without power kit it flys.