Debit card theft - some advice if possible
Discussion
This is a curve ball I've just been dealt that I don't necessarily want to deal with but feel obligated to because it's landed on my door. Apologies for the length, I've tried to give all relevant information. Shout back if there's anything I've missed.
Friend has just split with her guy. She's now discovered for the past few weeks he's been stealing money from her personal (not joint) bank account, the sum is not unadjacent to £25k. She said she has that in her current account due to laziness/lack of financial savvy whatever. OK. Her direct debits have still been paid and she has not gone overdrawn been reduced to penury etc as a result of this. These have been cash withdrawals and in store purchases but no online transfers so clearly he got her PIN somehow but didn't gain access to her online banking.
She's shown me the statements and there's a consistent very obvious pattern of behaviour over about 6 weeks. He was taking £300/day (obviously her daily ATM limit) from a cash point and using her card to make store purchases, he must have taken the card from her purse used it then returned it. She works from home so this would probably have been easy for anybody so minded.
To me it should be obvious nobody would ever do that - why would you take cash out consistently when you have the ability to buy whatever on your card? We live in a decent sized city and there simply aren't enough places that don't take cards to make that cash usage in any way normal behaviour. Her usual pattern is to take £100 cash out when she needs it maybe 2x per month and spend about £1k/month on her card on the usual stuff then use a credit card for larger stuff. Obviously this spending was also way out of line with the salary she had going in.
Does the bank have any responsibility to "keep an eye" on her spending and flag up spending that is clearly not normal behaviour for anyone and way outside her usual spending pattern she has established over the years?
She swears blind she never gave him her PIN, she has changed it from the default PIN that came with the card so intercepting the PIN letter wouldn't have got him anywhere. So I assume he guessed, she admitted it would be possible for somebody who knew her well to do that by trial and error or even 1st time lucky. The first 2 numbers are her current house number, she says the last 2 numbers have equally obvious relevance to her. So I'm assuming the bank can join the dots on that. Obviously she knows she's been very stupid with her choice of PIN so doesn't need telling this. The question is does having an easy to guess PIN mean the bank can say it's her own fault and wash their hands off it?
Obviously she wants the guy hung for this but she wants her money back too. If there's a choice to be made she'd prioritise getting her money back over getting him done. She could live with him never being brought to justice if she got the money. My thinking is he must still have some of the stuff he bought and/or stuff he bought with the cash so involving the police might enable her to recover something that way?
For clarity, she is not "vulnerable" in any way an otherwise intelligent women who's been stupid, she is varying combinations of distressed/embarrassed/angry etc by this. No idea why she felt I was the best placed in her circle to involve in this, there is nothing in my knowledge/experience/professional background that might make me in any way qualified to help her. I don't know anyone who does have appropriate experience. But there's an obligation here and she has been there for me in the past so I owe her, ideally to get some insight and point her in some appropriate direction.
Anyone dealt with anything similar - any tips/advice/experiences/guidance etc gratefully received.
Friend has just split with her guy. She's now discovered for the past few weeks he's been stealing money from her personal (not joint) bank account, the sum is not unadjacent to £25k. She said she has that in her current account due to laziness/lack of financial savvy whatever. OK. Her direct debits have still been paid and she has not gone overdrawn been reduced to penury etc as a result of this. These have been cash withdrawals and in store purchases but no online transfers so clearly he got her PIN somehow but didn't gain access to her online banking.
She's shown me the statements and there's a consistent very obvious pattern of behaviour over about 6 weeks. He was taking £300/day (obviously her daily ATM limit) from a cash point and using her card to make store purchases, he must have taken the card from her purse used it then returned it. She works from home so this would probably have been easy for anybody so minded.
To me it should be obvious nobody would ever do that - why would you take cash out consistently when you have the ability to buy whatever on your card? We live in a decent sized city and there simply aren't enough places that don't take cards to make that cash usage in any way normal behaviour. Her usual pattern is to take £100 cash out when she needs it maybe 2x per month and spend about £1k/month on her card on the usual stuff then use a credit card for larger stuff. Obviously this spending was also way out of line with the salary she had going in.
Does the bank have any responsibility to "keep an eye" on her spending and flag up spending that is clearly not normal behaviour for anyone and way outside her usual spending pattern she has established over the years?
She swears blind she never gave him her PIN, she has changed it from the default PIN that came with the card so intercepting the PIN letter wouldn't have got him anywhere. So I assume he guessed, she admitted it would be possible for somebody who knew her well to do that by trial and error or even 1st time lucky. The first 2 numbers are her current house number, she says the last 2 numbers have equally obvious relevance to her. So I'm assuming the bank can join the dots on that. Obviously she knows she's been very stupid with her choice of PIN so doesn't need telling this. The question is does having an easy to guess PIN mean the bank can say it's her own fault and wash their hands off it?
Obviously she wants the guy hung for this but she wants her money back too. If there's a choice to be made she'd prioritise getting her money back over getting him done. She could live with him never being brought to justice if she got the money. My thinking is he must still have some of the stuff he bought and/or stuff he bought with the cash so involving the police might enable her to recover something that way?
For clarity, she is not "vulnerable" in any way an otherwise intelligent women who's been stupid, she is varying combinations of distressed/embarrassed/angry etc by this. No idea why she felt I was the best placed in her circle to involve in this, there is nothing in my knowledge/experience/professional background that might make me in any way qualified to help her. I don't know anyone who does have appropriate experience. But there's an obligation here and she has been there for me in the past so I owe her, ideally to get some insight and point her in some appropriate direction.
Anyone dealt with anything similar - any tips/advice/experiences/guidance etc gratefully received.
Yes and no.
I can understand why she didn't notice the money going out. Despite this her card wasn't being declined for her own spending and her direct debits did not go unpaid so there was nothing to alert her.
I can't understand why the bank didn't notice a spending pattern that was clearly ridiculous totally out of line with her past behaviour and the salary she has going in. Part of the issue is do they have an obligation to notice this or can they just say none of our business we don't like to pry?
I can understand why she didn't notice the money going out. Despite this her card wasn't being declined for her own spending and her direct debits did not go unpaid so there was nothing to alert her.
I can't understand why the bank didn't notice a spending pattern that was clearly ridiculous totally out of line with her past behaviour and the salary she has going in. Part of the issue is do they have an obligation to notice this or can they just say none of our business we don't like to pry?
I expect the money is gone, if he's spent it there is little chance of him repaying. He will likely say she gave him permission to use her card, although I expect it will be easily proved he is lying.
Has she got a claim against the bank? Not likely, the spending and cash withdrawals are all local to her, even if she can prove she didn't make the withdrawals, they will argue she has 'given' her pin to someone she knows.
Only option is to get the police involved, again he will likely say she gave him permission.
Has she got a claim against the bank? Not likely, the spending and cash withdrawals are all local to her, even if she can prove she didn't make the withdrawals, they will argue she has 'given' her pin to someone she knows.
Only option is to get the police involved, again he will likely say she gave him permission.
Getting up to £25k at £300/day of ATM withdrawals would take a while, even if the ex is also using the debit card for other spending. There should be some nice clear images of him at ATMs. Your friend needs to notify the bank's fraud department asap before too many images get deleted. She should give her best estimate of which transactions were fraudulent. The bank *ought* to take over from there. PM me if they don't.
Source: Many years in banking sector
Source: Many years in banking sector
Edited by NNH on Thursday 8th July 06:38
Why is there a reluctance to take personal responsibility? Sometimes, unreal as it might sound, it’s actually not the big corporate’s fault.
It sounds as if she didn’t particularly miss this card, seeing as it’s theft went unnoticed for 6 weeks. Presumably she just uses it via Apple Pay or has memorised (or written down) the numbers?
The pattern of spending doesn’t sound particularly unusual, particularly from ATMs where the obvious use of the PIN validates it. Again, if she hasn’t noticed circa £25k going missing over 6 weeks, I presume she isn’t living hand to mouth with her finances and is actually spending a decent chunk of money herself on a regular basis?
Sometimes people make stupid decisions in life and/or eschew personal responsibility recklessly, and it’s not really anyone else’s fault but theirs. This imo is one of those times, sorry to say.
It sounds as if she didn’t particularly miss this card, seeing as it’s theft went unnoticed for 6 weeks. Presumably she just uses it via Apple Pay or has memorised (or written down) the numbers?
The pattern of spending doesn’t sound particularly unusual, particularly from ATMs where the obvious use of the PIN validates it. Again, if she hasn’t noticed circa £25k going missing over 6 weeks, I presume she isn’t living hand to mouth with her finances and is actually spending a decent chunk of money herself on a regular basis?
Sometimes people make stupid decisions in life and/or eschew personal responsibility recklessly, and it’s not really anyone else’s fault but theirs. This imo is one of those times, sorry to say.
Durzel said:
Why is there a reluctance to take personal responsibility? Sometimes, unreal as it might sound, it’s actually not the big corporate’s fault.
It sounds as if she didn’t particularly miss this card, seeing as it’s theft went unnoticed for 6 weeks. Presumably she just uses it via Apple Pay or has memorised (or written down) the numbers?
The pattern of spending doesn’t sound particularly unusual, particularly from ATMs where the obvious use of the PIN validates it. Again, if she hasn’t noticed circa £25k going missing over 6 weeks, I presume she isn’t living hand to mouth with her finances and is actually spending a decent chunk of money herself on a regular basis?
Sometimes people make stupid decisions in life and/or eschew personal responsibility recklessly, and it’s not really anyone else’s fault but theirs. This imo is one of those times, sorry to say.
Umm, it's not her fault. It's the fault of the person stealing the money. You're victim blaming. It sounds as if she didn’t particularly miss this card, seeing as it’s theft went unnoticed for 6 weeks. Presumably she just uses it via Apple Pay or has memorised (or written down) the numbers?
The pattern of spending doesn’t sound particularly unusual, particularly from ATMs where the obvious use of the PIN validates it. Again, if she hasn’t noticed circa £25k going missing over 6 weeks, I presume she isn’t living hand to mouth with her finances and is actually spending a decent chunk of money herself on a regular basis?
Sometimes people make stupid decisions in life and/or eschew personal responsibility recklessly, and it’s not really anyone else’s fault but theirs. This imo is one of those times, sorry to say.
Cold said:
Umm, it's not her fault. It's the fault of the person stealing the money. You're victim blaming.
If you say so bud. Maybe post that on Twitter where you win prizes for virtue signalling.Back in the real world having a measure of control and accountability over your finances is perfectly reasonable and expected.
She didn’t deserve to have this money taken from her but at the same time I don’t happen to think the bank is liable for not having ESP about transactions that used her PIN being suspicious when, as I said, the presumption is that she was still using this card/account via other means (e.g. Apple Pay, etc)
Durzel said:
Cold said:
Umm, it's not her fault. It's the fault of the person stealing the money. You're victim blaming.
If you say so bud. Maybe post that on Twitter where you win prizes for virtue signalling.Back in the real world having a measure of control and accountability over your finances is perfectly reasonable and expected.
She didn’t deserve to have this money taken from her but at the same time I don’t happen to think the bank is liable for not having ESP about transactions that used her PIN being suspicious when, as I said, the presumption is that she was still using this card/account via other means (e.g. Apple Pay, etc)
a) Current accounts that have more than one debit-card.
b) Finances that allow them to go about their lives quite easily without needing to check their account balances every 3 days.
The above are all it would take for someone to not immediately notice funds go missing from their account.
Durzel said:
Cold said:
Umm, it's not her fault. It's the fault of the person stealing the money. You're victim blaming.
If you say so bud. Maybe post that on Twitter where you win prizes for virtue signalling.Back in the real world having a measure of control and accountability over your finances is perfectly reasonable and expected.
She didn’t deserve to have this money taken from her but at the same time I don’t happen to think the bank is liable for not having ESP about transactions that used her PIN being suspicious when, as I said, the presumption is that she was still using this card/account via other means (e.g. Apple Pay, etc)
This isn't virtue signalling no matter what you believe Twitter might say - even if that was in any way relevant to, well, anything.
markjmd said:
Plenty of people have:
a) Current accounts that have more than one debit-card.
b) Finances that allow them to go about their lives quite easily without needing to check their account balances every 3 days.
The above are all it would take for someone to not immediately notice funds go missing from their account.
Every 3 days, sure. 3 days isn’t mentioned anywhere else in this post though, 6 weeks is, so let’s use that.a) Current accounts that have more than one debit-card.
b) Finances that allow them to go about their lives quite easily without needing to check their account balances every 3 days.
The above are all it would take for someone to not immediately notice funds go missing from their account.
Is several weeks of financial obliviousness reasonable? Perhaps it is for HNWI. To be clear I would say that if this all happened over the course of a week, maybe 2, with no other obvious indicator on her end (e.g. declines) then I would say it might be something that a lot of people wouldn’t notice.
Cold said:
I agree with you about the bank's lack of liability although they should be able to help with collecting evidence, but the blame for the theft lies with the thief. No one else.
This isn't virtue signalling no matter what you believe Twitter might say - even if that was in any way relevant to, well, anything.
Apologies if I misread your position, but “victim blaming” is a charged accusation that is inappropriate to this situation, and a conflation of what I said, in my opinion. I wasn’t blaming her, moreover that I didn’t think the bank was to blame (or liable) either.This isn't virtue signalling no matter what you believe Twitter might say - even if that was in any way relevant to, well, anything.
I suspect there is nothing she can do to recoup the money as the bank are not at fault. Although a crime may have been commited proving "beyond doubt" may be a step too far.
At least she will be more savvy now; although it's a painful lesson to learn.
on a side note - if i buy a sneaky Maccy's breakfast (on occasions im driving by without the missus) i make sure i pay in cash as she checks every payment (although she isn't savvy wrt spending it)
At least she will be more savvy now; although it's a painful lesson to learn.
on a side note - if i buy a sneaky Maccy's breakfast (on occasions im driving by without the missus) i make sure i pay in cash as she checks every payment (although she isn't savvy wrt spending it)
I had similar happen to me a few years ago, my ex managed to remove the thick end of £6k from my current account over a few weeks by withdrawing cash.
After I moved out, she then took a number of unsecured loans and credit cards out against my name, even securing a loan against my car. It had previously been free of finance.
There wasn't much that could be done as I panicked and partially paid a number of the debts off, admitting liability.
I did go to the police, and I believe some investigations were carried out but the whole thing was marred by other issues.
Stuff occasionally pops up now, and I have a number of CCJs against my name as a result of this.
I hope there's some mileage in it for your friend, for me, I was just glad to be away from it. It may cost me way more than the £6k I initially "lost", but I'm away from the mentalist now.
After I moved out, she then took a number of unsecured loans and credit cards out against my name, even securing a loan against my car. It had previously been free of finance.
There wasn't much that could be done as I panicked and partially paid a number of the debts off, admitting liability.
I did go to the police, and I believe some investigations were carried out but the whole thing was marred by other issues.
Stuff occasionally pops up now, and I have a number of CCJs against my name as a result of this.
I hope there's some mileage in it for your friend, for me, I was just glad to be away from it. It may cost me way more than the £6k I initially "lost", but I'm away from the mentalist now.
Firstly, the PIN itself, is only relevant if the bank can prove that your friend was negligent. This means that the PIN would need to be written down, given over the phone, or to be a very obvious combination. While in your/her mind the PIN is obvious, it's not as obvious as her year or date of birth and uses two sets of data; Her house number and "something else" we don't know. The question is whether the bank would know what that something is and could prove she was negligent with it. For all we know it could be the two numbers on her car reg which isn't going to be obvious to people who don't know her car etc.
Secondly, she needs to tell the bank, sooner rather than later, that there are several transactions she doesn't recognise and that she believes herself to be a victim of fraud. I am not an expert, but my understanding is that the onus again is on the bank to prove that your friend was negligent, and not for her to prove she wasn't.
Others more knowledgeable than I am may be able to advise whether it's good practise to tell the bank that she believes her partner had access to the card and had discovered/guessed her PIN. I would suggest she does as, again, she does not need to prove that she didn't give the PIN to her partner, only that the use was not authorised by her. The bank need to prove the negligence. She should be careful with her wording. For all she (or they) knows he actually worked it out by looking over her shoulder at the supermarket etc.
If this is reported soon enough she should only be liable for the first £50 of the theft.
Finally, she should report it to the police as a theft. Unless she strongly believes her ex will repay her in full, she shouldn't allow him the chance to think he got away with anything.
Secondly, she needs to tell the bank, sooner rather than later, that there are several transactions she doesn't recognise and that she believes herself to be a victim of fraud. I am not an expert, but my understanding is that the onus again is on the bank to prove that your friend was negligent, and not for her to prove she wasn't.
Others more knowledgeable than I am may be able to advise whether it's good practise to tell the bank that she believes her partner had access to the card and had discovered/guessed her PIN. I would suggest she does as, again, she does not need to prove that she didn't give the PIN to her partner, only that the use was not authorised by her. The bank need to prove the negligence. She should be careful with her wording. For all she (or they) knows he actually worked it out by looking over her shoulder at the supermarket etc.
If this is reported soon enough she should only be liable for the first £50 of the theft.
Finally, she should report it to the police as a theft. Unless she strongly believes her ex will repay her in full, she shouldn't allow him the chance to think he got away with anything.
cmvtec said:
After I moved out, she then took a number of unsecured loans and credit cards out against my name, even securing a loan against my car. It had previously been free of finance.
That is fraud plain and simple and any financial institution worth its salt would accept that. You don't live with them, they have no legal access to your finances. The crime is technically against the bank NOT you. I found that out with a similar issue. To win a CCJ against you in those circumstances you would have to not defend it or they would have to prove you were not careful with your details post break up.
Why would you just accept that as your debt when its not?
jonsp said:
To me it should be obvious nobody would ever do that - why would you take cash out consistently when you have the ability to buy whatever on your card? We live in a decent sized city and there simply aren't enough places that don't take cards to make that cash usage in any way normal behaviour.
Do drug dealers take cards nowadays!?Of course the bank aren't responsible if he had her card and pin.
Why is she fannying about thinking how she might get the money out of him instead of contacting the bank and the police?
What benefit is there to not doing that immediately?
Why is she fannying about thinking how she might get the money out of him instead of contacting the bank and the police?
What benefit is there to not doing that immediately?
Edited by PorkInsider on Thursday 8th July 10:48
Psycho Warren said:
cmvtec said:
After I moved out, she then took a number of unsecured loans and credit cards out against my name, even securing a loan against my car. It had previously been free of finance.
That is fraud plain and simple and any financial institution worth its salt would accept that. You don't live with them, they have no legal access to your finances. The crime is technically against the bank NOT you. I found that out with a similar issue. To win a CCJ against you in those circumstances you would have to not defend it or they would have to prove you were not careful with your details post break up.
Why would you just accept that as your debt when its not?
It got really bad and started to really effect my life at one point and by the time some of this came through it was easier to just pay the bill and rid myself of the problem. It really wears you down after a couple of years. For example, when a bailiff turned up to take my car, the way to stop the car being uplifted, me incurring further cost etc.
This is on top of the money that was stolen in the same fashion as the OP, it became very overwhelming, my mental health took a massive nosedive based on the other (serious criminal) stuff involved in the breakup. It was really messy.
If I'd been in the right mindset I could have handled things very differently and ended up in a better position overall, it's too late, and I'm back on track.
Edited by cmvtec on Thursday 8th July 10:10
Edited by cmvtec on Thursday 8th July 10:11
I work in the industry so the first thing to do is confirm that she has the card in hand.
If so she then needs to contact her bank and tell them someone has been using her card, they can then confirm if the payments have come from her card (i.e. the magstripe hasn't been cloned or a card intercepted in the post).
Two things could be going on here, someone has intercepted her card in the post or her card has been cloned (magstripe cloning isn't as common as it used to be).
Once that has happened and confirmed that it isn't someone else she then needs to involve the police. They may do nothing, in which case off you go to civil court and see if you can get the money back that way.
If you know where the ATM is then it's worth heading there before you meet the police to see if there are any public CCTV's in the area.
If you have evidence then you can head to the civil court and try to claim the money back from him. Assuming they have some assets to go after.
Finally if you have 25k sitting in a bank account then it's worth either moving some of that money to a more inacessible place or at least setting up spending alerts (if possible) so that you are made aware when the money drops below a certain amount.
If so she then needs to contact her bank and tell them someone has been using her card, they can then confirm if the payments have come from her card (i.e. the magstripe hasn't been cloned or a card intercepted in the post).
Two things could be going on here, someone has intercepted her card in the post or her card has been cloned (magstripe cloning isn't as common as it used to be).
Once that has happened and confirmed that it isn't someone else she then needs to involve the police. They may do nothing, in which case off you go to civil court and see if you can get the money back that way.
If you know where the ATM is then it's worth heading there before you meet the police to see if there are any public CCTV's in the area.
If you have evidence then you can head to the civil court and try to claim the money back from him. Assuming they have some assets to go after.
Finally if you have 25k sitting in a bank account then it's worth either moving some of that money to a more inacessible place or at least setting up spending alerts (if possible) so that you are made aware when the money drops below a certain amount.
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