Buying a BEV for local runarounding?
Discussion
I'm thinking of buying a BEV as a runaround for nursery drop-offs and pick-ups, shopping trips, takeaway pick-ups, etc. Maximum round trip distance I'll be looking to do in it is probably ~80 miles of mostly motorway. It must be capable of taking a child seat without completely compromising the front passenger's legroom, and I'd also like to have the option of putting the child seat on the front passenger seat (but that's not a hard requirement).
I have a driveway and I can get whatever charging equipment is necessary installed.
I'm assuming that a second-hand car is probably going to be the best value for money but I don't know anything about the reliability or longevity of BEVs, how quickly the battery performance degrades over time or with usage, etc. Basically, I have zero experience with EVs (I've literally never driven one) so you can assume that I probably don't know what questions I should be asking. It's also probably worth mentioning that I'm a bit risk-averse; for example, I'm the sort of person who would buy a second hand car from a dealer with a warranty, rather than from a private advert.
I have a driveway and I can get whatever charging equipment is necessary installed.
I'm assuming that a second-hand car is probably going to be the best value for money but I don't know anything about the reliability or longevity of BEVs, how quickly the battery performance degrades over time or with usage, etc. Basically, I have zero experience with EVs (I've literally never driven one) so you can assume that I probably don't know what questions I should be asking. It's also probably worth mentioning that I'm a bit risk-averse; for example, I'm the sort of person who would buy a second hand car from a dealer with a warranty, rather than from a private advert.
I know they will take over eventually but there was an interesting program on TV the other day about how much its going to cost to repair these things. A bloke from Thatcham was saying the amount of labour needed to pull them apart just to do simple tasks will really bite into the customers wallet.
Would this not get a better response over in the EV & alt fuels department?
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&...
Thought this was going to be about a Bike-Engined Vehicle, but then realised it is another EV thread 
I'd be looking at a used Renault Zoe or Nissan Leaf...both of which should be available from their relevant dealer network.
e.g. https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/l...
I'd be looking at a used Renault Zoe or Nissan Leaf...both of which should be available from their relevant dealer network.
e.g. https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/l...
flashbang said:
I know they will take over eventually but there was an interesting program on TV the other day about how much its going to cost to repair these things. A bloke from Thatcham was saying the amount of labour needed to pull them apart just to do simple tasks will really bite into the customers wallet.
What are these “simple tasks”?Jimbo. said:
flashbang said:
I know they will take over eventually but there was an interesting program on TV the other day about how much its going to cost to repair these things. A bloke from Thatcham was saying the amount of labour needed to pull them apart just to do simple tasks will really bite into the customers wallet.
What are these “simple tasks”?The 'mostly motorway' bit is important because the energy draw is directly connected to the speed and anything over about 50mph is going to be costly. Again, the winter energy consumption is somewhat greater than summer. My wife's Leaf provides about 4.0 - 4.2 miles/kWh in summer and yet struggles to maintain 3.0 miles/kWh in winter. It's not just the lights, wipers, and heater (heat pump) but the low temperatures reduce the battery's efficiency. With our 2014 Leaf 24kWh with 85% SOH (state of health) on the battery at c.47k miles, a range of sixty miles 'running around' locally is achievable in cold (not freezing) weather. We rarely charge above 80% as this is kinder to the battery so seventy miles might be reasonable if fully charged. The use we put ours to is more or less the same as you describe but without motorway use. Knowing that you can drive the mile or so here one day, two miles there another, and then 200 yards to the paper shop on Sunday all without the mayonnaise build-up in the oil that this usage would cause in a petrol/diesel car is valuable. VED of £0.00, servicing almost nil, and fuel consumption if charged at home of a standard tariff of 1/3 of the equivalent in petrol/diesel all make it worth having.
flashbang said:
I know they will take over eventually but there was an interesting program on TV the other day about how much its going to cost to repair these things. A bloke from Thatcham was saying the amount of labour needed to pull them apart just to do simple tasks will really bite into the customers wallet.
I'm not sure living in Thatcham makes you much of an EV specialist...flashbang said:
Jimbo. said:
flashbang said:
I know they will take over eventually but there was an interesting program on TV the other day about how much its going to cost to repair these things. A bloke from Thatcham was saying the amount of labour needed to pull them apart just to do simple tasks will really bite into the customers wallet.
What are these “simple tasks”?Replacing a battery pack, motor, eDrive unit etc is much easier than equivalent work on an ICE vehicle.
Bodywork, trim etc is generally no different.
The earliest gen (ie cheapest secondhand) EVs are great for everything you describe except doing 80 motorway miles, assuming you mean near the speed limit, in all weathers, without a charging stop. You’re really looking at the later generations (Leaf 30, Zoe ZE40, i3 94ah, Ioniq 28 etc) to be able to do the motorway bit.
Secondhand prices are pretty firm. People have caught on now but 4+ years ago it was the tiniest of niches so demand is high and supply low.
Reliability generally not a problem - Leaf is about the worst for battery degradation (no active cooling) but it shows as “bars” on the dash and a percentage can be read via the OBD port. As for difficult, this is what’s involved in removing and replacing part of a Leaf battery pack: https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U
Secondhand prices are pretty firm. People have caught on now but 4+ years ago it was the tiniest of niches so demand is high and supply low.
Reliability generally not a problem - Leaf is about the worst for battery degradation (no active cooling) but it shows as “bars” on the dash and a percentage can be read via the OBD port. As for difficult, this is what’s involved in removing and replacing part of a Leaf battery pack: https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U
SWoll said:
Budget?
Flexible, if truth be told. I'm assuming there's three broad options. 1) cheap and boring - e.g. a second-hand entry-level EV, like the Zoe or Leaf that mmm-five suggested. (Thank you, mmm-five!).
2) sporty and satisfying - e.g. the BMW i3 that PH's collective wisdom seems to favour, based on my research on the forums.
3) expensive and overkill - e.g. a Tesla Model X.
motco said:
The 'mostly motorway' bit is important because the energy draw is directly connected to the speed and anything over about 50mph is going to be costly. Again, the winter energy consumption is somewhat greater than summer. My wife's Leaf provides about 4.0 - 4.2 miles/kWh in summer and yet struggles to maintain 3.0 miles/kWh in winter. It's not just the lights, wipers, and heater (heat pump) but the low temperatures reduce the battery's efficiency. With our 2014 Leaf 24kWh with 85% SOH (state of health) on the battery at c.47k miles, a range of sixty miles 'running around' locally is achievable in cold (not freezing) weather. We rarely charge above 80% as this is kinder to the battery so seventy miles might be reasonable if fully charged. The use we put ours to is more or less the same as you describe but without motorway use. Knowing that you can drive the mile or so here one day, two miles there another, and then 200 yards to the paper shop on Sunday all without the mayonnaise build-up in the oil that this usage would cause in a petrol/diesel car is valuable. VED of £0.00, servicing almost nil, and fuel consumption if charged at home of a standard tariff of 1/3 of the equivalent in petrol/diesel all make it worth having.
This is really useful info, especially the fact that I should expect that the range will be 25% (or more) lower in cold weather. sjg said:
The earliest gen (ie cheapest secondhand) EVs are great for everything you describe except doing 80 motorway miles, assuming you mean near the speed limit, in all weathers, without a charging stop. You’re really looking at the later generations (Leaf 30, Zoe ZE40, i3 94ah, Ioniq 28 etc) to be able to do the motorway bit.
Secondhand prices are pretty firm. People have caught on now but 4+ years ago it was the tiniest of niches so demand is high and supply low.
Reliability generally not a problem - Leaf is about the worst for battery degradation (no active cooling) but it shows as “bars” on the dash and a percentage can be read via the OBD port. As for difficult, this is what’s involved in removing and replacing part of a Leaf battery pack: https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U
I guess right now is a bad time to be buying, what with the buoyant second-hand car market. Would it be fair to say that, if the battery packs don't degrade much, the biggest reason that older models are cheaper is because they have older, less efficient battery technology, and/or less range?Secondhand prices are pretty firm. People have caught on now but 4+ years ago it was the tiniest of niches so demand is high and supply low.
Reliability generally not a problem - Leaf is about the worst for battery degradation (no active cooling) but it shows as “bars” on the dash and a percentage can be read via the OBD port. As for difficult, this is what’s involved in removing and replacing part of a Leaf battery pack: https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U
I agree with the other comments here - its a real 'depends' answer I am afraid.
Given your scenario, a smaller EV would probably work really well, given that you dont need to longer trips and they really shine in and around town. Any reasonable EV in the last few years is going to be pretty damn efficient at the average 25MPH city / town driving and extremely convenient. Its only efficiency on higher speed roads that it becomes a bigger issue, though the more modern EV's are super slippery now so arent as bad, but you will pay for the more efficient ones for obvious reasons.
During the earlier part of 2020 lockdowns, we had an Evoque and it was eating fuel. Its not the most economical car in the world, but when it struggled to get better than 15MPG on many of the runs we were doing, it was getting stupid. A few miles to school, 2 miles each way to the supermarket etc - eating fuel. Get it out on a longer run and it was fine, its just that shorter runs that was bad. An EV isnt going to be some sort of super efficient thing either, but it will be better and the impact much smaller.
Chopping in the Evoque for an i3 absolutely made sense. Our fuel costs ended up being 1/3rd and not having to go to the local petrol station was such a delight (yeah, delight, I said it!!). Its just there, you use it and it doesnt matter what it is getting used for! With the easing of lock down, its getting used for longer trips now and hence we have got a L2 charger to make it better (12+ hours to charge on 120v two pin is a joke by the way). It is now getting used by my daughter, so I dont worry about mileage or distances and its super convenient - when she plugs it in to charge that is.
Which raises the biggest thing for me - its not about them working or not, but its all about charging. If you can charge at home and its convenient, then the argument is made. For example a drive or garage where you can just pop it on charge and top up, its so convenient. If you cant, then it becomes a bigger struggle. As mentioned by others, your range WILL vary based on the weather and winter will usually eat much more than expected. If you dont need to worry about charging, its easy to manage. Otherwise you are really looking at something that can do more than 200 miles (to take off the concerns about charging and the occasional longer trip) and suddenly it gets a lot more expensive. It would need to be newer, more modern tech and usually a lot more expensive. Maybe that works for you, but suddenly reduces the options.
My sis had two Zoe's for just this and she loved it, only just recently swapping for a diesel Golf as she is going much further and is semi-retired. Makes sense, but any car needs to fit for your life and how you use it and in the right situation an EV can be perfect.
Oh, and while consumption goes up in winter, one of the side effects is that the heaters are usually really good and work the instant you turn them on - unlike diesels! And if you can get one that is 'connected' it can be convenient in summer too (warm summers for me at an average of 35 C for two months) so you can leave it with the aircon cooling if you arent going to be long, or have it remotely activated 5 mins before you jump in it again. Small things, but it does make a difference for those shorter trips!
Given your scenario, a smaller EV would probably work really well, given that you dont need to longer trips and they really shine in and around town. Any reasonable EV in the last few years is going to be pretty damn efficient at the average 25MPH city / town driving and extremely convenient. Its only efficiency on higher speed roads that it becomes a bigger issue, though the more modern EV's are super slippery now so arent as bad, but you will pay for the more efficient ones for obvious reasons.
During the earlier part of 2020 lockdowns, we had an Evoque and it was eating fuel. Its not the most economical car in the world, but when it struggled to get better than 15MPG on many of the runs we were doing, it was getting stupid. A few miles to school, 2 miles each way to the supermarket etc - eating fuel. Get it out on a longer run and it was fine, its just that shorter runs that was bad. An EV isnt going to be some sort of super efficient thing either, but it will be better and the impact much smaller.
Chopping in the Evoque for an i3 absolutely made sense. Our fuel costs ended up being 1/3rd and not having to go to the local petrol station was such a delight (yeah, delight, I said it!!). Its just there, you use it and it doesnt matter what it is getting used for! With the easing of lock down, its getting used for longer trips now and hence we have got a L2 charger to make it better (12+ hours to charge on 120v two pin is a joke by the way). It is now getting used by my daughter, so I dont worry about mileage or distances and its super convenient - when she plugs it in to charge that is.
Which raises the biggest thing for me - its not about them working or not, but its all about charging. If you can charge at home and its convenient, then the argument is made. For example a drive or garage where you can just pop it on charge and top up, its so convenient. If you cant, then it becomes a bigger struggle. As mentioned by others, your range WILL vary based on the weather and winter will usually eat much more than expected. If you dont need to worry about charging, its easy to manage. Otherwise you are really looking at something that can do more than 200 miles (to take off the concerns about charging and the occasional longer trip) and suddenly it gets a lot more expensive. It would need to be newer, more modern tech and usually a lot more expensive. Maybe that works for you, but suddenly reduces the options.
My sis had two Zoe's for just this and she loved it, only just recently swapping for a diesel Golf as she is going much further and is semi-retired. Makes sense, but any car needs to fit for your life and how you use it and in the right situation an EV can be perfect.
Oh, and while consumption goes up in winter, one of the side effects is that the heaters are usually really good and work the instant you turn them on - unlike diesels! And if you can get one that is 'connected' it can be convenient in summer too (warm summers for me at an average of 35 C for two months) so you can leave it with the aircon cooling if you arent going to be long, or have it remotely activated 5 mins before you jump in it again. Small things, but it does make a difference for those shorter trips!
The answer is the amazing ioniq at £180 a month with 3 months down. It does 5 miles a kw probably 4 in winter and we pay 5p kw cheap rate which is fine.
I’m driving it as my new ones not arrived and I love it, seriously nippy, lots of toys inc vent seats, big boot etc.
We paid £210 with all maintenance so no extra bills.
I’m driving it as my new ones not arrived and I love it, seriously nippy, lots of toys inc vent seats, big boot etc.
We paid £210 with all maintenance so no extra bills.
Fastlane said:
flashbang said:
I know they will take over eventually but there was an interesting program on TV the other day about how much its going to cost to repair these things. A bloke from Thatcham was saying the amount of labour needed to pull them apart just to do simple tasks will really bite into the customers wallet.
I'm not sure living in Thatcham makes you much of an EV specialist...DSLiverpool said:
The answer is the amazing ioniq at £180 a month with 3 months down. It does 5 miles a kw probably 4 in winter and we pay 5p kw cheap rate which is fine.
I’m driving it as my new ones not arrived and I love it, seriously nippy, lots of toys inc vent seats, big boot etc.
We paid £210 with all maintenance so no extra bills.
Is that a lease? Interesting. Mind saying who from?I’m driving it as my new ones not arrived and I love it, seriously nippy, lots of toys inc vent seats, big boot etc.
We paid £210 with all maintenance so no extra bills.
motco said:
Knowing that you can drive the mile or so here one day, two miles there another, and then 200 yards to the paper shop on Sunday all without the mayonnaise build-up in the oil that this usage would cause in a petrol/diesel car is valuable.
Sorry but this is utter nonsense lololololflashbang said:
Fastlane said:
flashbang said:
I know they will take over eventually but there was an interesting program on TV the other day about how much its going to cost to repair these things. A bloke from Thatcham was saying the amount of labour needed to pull them apart just to do simple tasks will really bite into the customers wallet.
I'm not sure living in Thatcham makes you much of an EV specialist...Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff