Wingly + other "flying" experiences
Discussion
Wingly is for connecting pilots with people who would like to cost share on a flight, where as an experiance day is a commercial product/service. So they aren’t really the same, wingly must be cheaper too.
As it happens my gf is using wingly on Sunday to take her aunt on a sightseeing flight for her bday, I will let you know how it goes.
The pilots hold flying licences so they have been examined etc, that’s the “quality control” I would say.
As it happens my gf is using wingly on Sunday to take her aunt on a sightseeing flight for her bday, I will let you know how it goes.
The pilots hold flying licences so they have been examined etc, that’s the “quality control” I would say.
As a PPL, I'd strongly advise you to go to a commercial flying training organisation and book an experience flight with a qualified instructor, especially as you're taking a child with you.
They will have been trained to a level at which they are competent to engage with complete novice strangers in the cockpit - who may or may not cope will with the situation and be easily able to accept instruction - as well as safely operate the aircraft.
With arbitrary cost-sharing arrangements, you just don't know what you'll be getting - could be a retired Chesley Sullenberger, or it could be a newly qualified Forrest Gump.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The experience flight voucher outfits are invariably resellers for commercial organisations, and act as a sales channel for those organisations taking a cut for themselves. Those commercial outfits will operate under the appropriate CAA permissions and certificates outside of any oversight by the voucher sellers as such, but they may have financial requirements - from memory the 'voucher' aspect meant there were bonds of various sorts as part of the contract in the event either party went out of business. Note that Wingly website also acts as a sales channel for commercial flying organisations as well, but in general I'd say you're better off doing a bit of research, and going to the flying organisation directly, and saving some money into the process.The organisation of PPL cost sharing amongst arbitrary strangers is the thing I personally wouldn't touch with a bargepole, from either side of the transaction.
eharding said:
The organisation of PPL cost sharing amongst arbitrary strangers is the thing I personally wouldn't touch with a bargepole, from either side of the transaction.
This is exactly what my brother and a mate of mine have said to me - both of them diligent & experienced pilots.dangerousB said:
This is exactly what my brother and a mate of mine have said to me - both of them diligent & experienced pilots.
Agreed. There are many reasons why I wouldn't use the service. For example if the worst were to happen what is the insurance looking like, the legality of the flight based on the type of licence held by the pilot and if not commercial (unlikely) payments made may void the insurance if deemed to have been charged more than their share of the flight cost. Insurance could be null and void.Would you consider a 'trail' flight in a glider with a BGA club. BGA instructors go through all sorts of difficult flight test to ensure they are qualified to take a fare paying passenger, and only instructors are allowed to fly trail flights.
An hour is a glider is a worthwhile experience, but I may be biased.
An hour is a glider is a worthwhile experience, but I may be biased.
bearman68 said:
Would you consider a 'trail' flight in a glider with a BGA club. BGA instructors go through all sorts of difficult flight test to ensure they are qualified to take a fare paying passenger, and only instructors are allowed to fly trail flights.
An hour is a glider is a worthwhile experience, but I may be biased.
I'd say absolutely go for it - it's been 35 years since I did any gliding, but I'd highly recommend it - except that the OP wants to go flying with his child, and I think the availability of three-seaters is limited?An hour is a glider is a worthwhile experience, but I may be biased.
Edited by eharding on Friday 16th July 23:01
bearman68 said:
Would you consider a 'trail' flight in a glider with a BGA club. BGA instructors go through all sorts of difficult flight test to ensure they are qualified to take a fare paying passenger, and only instructors are allowed to fly trail flights.
An hour is a glider is a worthwhile experience, but I may be biased.
A lot of gliding clubs have motor gliders too. At least with these on a non-thermic day you can still get a one hour flight.An hour is a glider is a worthwhile experience, but I may be biased.
I agree with the concerns about flying with a random PPL holder. The minimum hours a year to stay current are 12. That's equivalent to driving about 600 miles a year. In addition, you and your son will no doubt be wanting to ask questions, so that will reduce the pilot's ability to concentrate. Unless you are lucky enough to find a pilot flying 100+ hours a year in that type of aircraft and on that type of airfield, it sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
Edited by GliderRider on Friday 16th July 22:52
jjones said:
dangerousB said:
This is exactly what my brother and a mate of mine have said to me - both of them diligent & experienced pilots.
Agreed. There are many reasons why I wouldn't use the service. For example if the worst were to happen what is the insurance looking like, the legality of the flight based on the type of licence held by the pilot and if not commercial (unlikely) payments made may void the insurance if deemed to have been charged more than their share of the flight cost. Insurance could be null and void.Fortunately, up until now there has been no serious litigation arising from an accident occurring during one of these flights, but sadly it is only a matter of time - and when it does I suspect the resulting massive exploding can of worms will put paid to it.
Quite the degree of cost sharing that is actually going on is a case in point - the OP cites an offer of a Wingly cost-sharing trip for £130 per person for an hour, thus he's contributing £260 towards the flight for himself and his daughter? My flying alma mater White Waltham is currently offering a 1 hour introductory lesson, obviously with a qualified instructor, for £168 - and the standard dual training rate is £215 an hour. So quite what the Wingly pilot deems to be his hourly cost if he is also making a significant contribution is a mystery. Well, it's not really - he's just taking the piss.The fact that there is a fixed cost per person is a giveaway that this isn't cost sharing - a minor increase in fuel burn aside, the cost of operating the aircraft per hour doesn't jump by £130 because you've got another person on board.
Given that it's difficult to rent something in order to undertake these flights, and most ownership groups would tell you to FRO if you tried it, most of the people offering these flights own the aircraft outright - but if you're so cash-strapped that you have to resort to funding your flying via cost sharing you might ask yourself quite how keen is that owner going to be to have minor faults attended to promptly? - professional aviation maintenance is expensive, and the trouble with minor faults with aircraft is that they can become major ones pretty damned quick, and at the most inconvenient time.
Edited by eharding on Friday 16th July 23:39
You haven't mentioned whether you just want to be flown in an aircraft, or whether you would like to actually do some of the piloting yourself. If it's the latter, definitely visit a local flying school. I had a helicopter experience at Wycombe Air Park that was amazing, but ultimately I learnt to fly fixed wing at Fairoaks Airport near Woking many years ago. I don't know where you are based but that would be how I'd do it. Make sure the pilot in command is an actual instructor and not an inexperienced PPL looking for financial help to build hours.
Unfortunately there is a slightly murky underworld of private pilots soliciting and flying paying passengers, in circumstances skirting around the edge of the law, through both ostensibly 'official' networks and random social media groups/pages. It is something that hasn't received anywhere near the level of scrutiny it merits from authorities and the media, and it will probably take more accidents for it to do so (as it did to some extent after Emiliano Sala a couple of years ago).
I have a PPL, i've been aware of wingly for a while and have been in a flying group that has removed members for advertising on there.
A quick look at options locally shows a number of freshly minted PPL holders with around 50 hours offering to take you on a flight in "their" aircraft, all the aircraft belong to flying schools.
As others have said I wouldn't touch it with a sh**ty stick, not as a passenger nor as a pilot. If you're interested in having a flight give your local flying school a ring, they'd be more than happy to take you on a trail flying lesson for around the same cost as some of the offerings on wingly.
A quick look at options locally shows a number of freshly minted PPL holders with around 50 hours offering to take you on a flight in "their" aircraft, all the aircraft belong to flying schools.
As others have said I wouldn't touch it with a sh**ty stick, not as a passenger nor as a pilot. If you're interested in having a flight give your local flying school a ring, they'd be more than happy to take you on a trail flying lesson for around the same cost as some of the offerings on wingly.
NowWatchThisDrive said:
Unfortunately there is a slightly murky underworld of private pilots soliciting and flying paying passengers, in circumstances skirting around the edge of the law, through both ostensibly 'official' networks and random social media groups/pages. It is something that hasn't received anywhere near the level of scrutiny it merits from authorities and the media, and it will probably take more accidents for it to do so (as it did to some extent after Emiliano Sala a couple of years ago).
There have long been a few "dodgy charter" characters floating about, their reputations tend to become known and most people will give them a wide berth, and the CAA - the Enforcement Branch having been gradually whittled down to a nice lady in a small office in London with a photocopier and a large stapler - have historically been less than efficient at closing them down, and prosecutions for illegal public transport generally only come about after some form of accident - like this chap : Pilot jailed after injuring passengers in crash near M62 - the suspicion being that his apparent 15,000 PPL hours derived from many years of illegal charters (although his record of other dubious aviation-related business affairs does bring into question as to whether his total claimed experience was as dodgy as everything else). However, as I said, these characters were few and far between.The internet-based cost sharing networks have made the situation much worse, and I'd say are encouraging activity which is patently *not* cost sharing but plain and simple paid public transport work by numerous unqualified individuals. The USA outlawed the practice years ago, although the legal case went all the way to the Supreme Court, but I suspect the CAA at present is in such a parlous state they now lack the basic expertise and resources to enforce the law in this area - and as you say, it will sadly take a serious accident and media scrutiny to expose and correct what's going on. That COVID basically stopped a lot of light General Aviation stone dead for a year or so has probably delayed the inevitable outcome, but when it does there will be a huge amount of fertiliser hitting the fan, and hence why anyone - private pilot or commercial entity - with an ounce of sense is steering well clear.
DavieBNL said:
Just picked a Wingly flight at random, guy offering the sortie had 52 hours total flying.
Jesus! I’ve just done more than that in the last ten days - although with a fair amount of coffee drinking done in that time. But that’s insane, no way would I put me and my child in a plane with someone with so little experience. I think it’s already been covered but get up with a proper instructor for an experience flight; you’ll get far more out of it and be much, much safer.
That being said, ‘instructor’ is often the first job that pilots go for, mainly to build hours and experience, so don’t expect them to be veterans of the sky either. They will, however, be well trained and up to speed with operating a small piston and probably better than the experienced jet pilot who instructs once a month to keep their hand in.
eharding said:
As a PPL, I'd strongly advise you to go to a commercial flying training organisation and book an experience flight with a qualified instructor, especially as you're taking a child with you.
^^^This.I wouldn't even consider Wingly......its a terrible loophole that shouldn't be allowed.
The Killing Zone: How & Why Pilots Die should be required reading for any newly minted PPL IMHO - it was a fairly new publication when I got a PPL, and I think there is now a newer edition dealing some some of the pitfalls of newer technology - and frankly would be an excellent read for anyone unfamiliar with aviation contemplating one of these cost-sharing flights, who is reading this thread and wondering if those making negative comments are just being miserable gits. Even just reading the precis on the Amazon site would be a start.
I'd argue that the majority of light aviation accidents arise out of poor judgement rather than sheer bad luck, mechanical failure or basic lack of handling skills - there is a hoary old phrase about "the superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid needing to use his superior handling skills to stay out of trouble", and making the decision as a newly minted PPL to get into internet cost-sharing with complete strangers as a way to subsidise your flying IMHO shows seriously questionable judgement, and if you're starting of with a whopper of a bad decision, it doesn't bode well for the future. To be honest, I think going down this route at any stage as a PPL is indicative of poor judgement in general.
I'd argue that the majority of light aviation accidents arise out of poor judgement rather than sheer bad luck, mechanical failure or basic lack of handling skills - there is a hoary old phrase about "the superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid needing to use his superior handling skills to stay out of trouble", and making the decision as a newly minted PPL to get into internet cost-sharing with complete strangers as a way to subsidise your flying IMHO shows seriously questionable judgement, and if you're starting of with a whopper of a bad decision, it doesn't bode well for the future. To be honest, I think going down this route at any stage as a PPL is indicative of poor judgement in general.
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