Vantage V12 s on track
Discussion
Having had a few days testing the Aventador SVJ to answer questions on possible track excursions (4 or 5 a year) I have concluded that its not really up to the job.
But, i adored the sound which has lead to to looking at other V12s that might work, maybe some older and installing a few mods to get them up to speed.
So, assuming the V12 S is a little off as a track car, could it be got up to GT3 performance with tires, suspension & brakes?
I currently track my AMG GTC and it comfortably sits between GT3 & GT3RS performance on track (running 700hp) but Ive not come across a modified Vantage to know.
Anyone with some insight? also, the vanquish V12 S has the right noises from what I’ve been able to listen to, i assume this can be had from the older vantage with a good valved exhaust?
Cheers, for any input
But, i adored the sound which has lead to to looking at other V12s that might work, maybe some older and installing a few mods to get them up to speed.
So, assuming the V12 S is a little off as a track car, could it be got up to GT3 performance with tires, suspension & brakes?
I currently track my AMG GTC and it comfortably sits between GT3 & GT3RS performance on track (running 700hp) but Ive not come across a modified Vantage to know.
Anyone with some insight? also, the vanquish V12 S has the right noises from what I’ve been able to listen to, i assume this can be had from the older vantage with a good valved exhaust?
Cheers, for any input
This seems to be a familiar question on many automotive sites: "what can I do to make my road car beat a 911 on a track?"
With respect, it's a bit of an exercise in futility.
That being said, I've tracked my V12VS with no modifications several times.
The first thing to remember is that it is a heavy car, and like most road cars (with the exception of a few such as the Lotus Elige twins, 911 GT3 etc.) is not really a car you would want to use primarily as a track weapon. Nevertheless, the OEM CCM brakes are remarkably resilient and you will cook your tires long before the brakes (not something one can say about an OEM V8V of similar vintage). I have PS Cup 2's on my V12VS which are definitely a step up from the OEM PZero Corsas, but the temperatures have to be carefully monitored, and even then they will overheat rapidly.
I would have serious concerns about cost if I regularly tracked a V12VS, specifically with respect to CCM wear and hideous cost of replacement. I suppose you might be able to retrofit cast iron brakes (just as anyone who is serious about tracking their GT3 will not choose the PCCB option unless they want to break the bank) but that is beyond my level of dedication. Unfortunately there is no OEM cast iron brake option on the V12VS.
The V12VS has plenty of power, but the power to weight ratio is not really any better than with a GT3 due to the excess mass. I am afraid you would not be able to get to GT3 levels of handling without serious investment, and only then by ruining any prospects of using the car comfortably on the road, never mind what you would be doing to the resale value. The GT3's intrinsic handling and especially braking advantages due to engine layout and weight balance, at any rate, would never be attainable no matter how much cash you threw at a V12VS. A GT12 gets you closer, but IMHO still no cigar.
With respect, it's a bit of an exercise in futility.
That being said, I've tracked my V12VS with no modifications several times.
The first thing to remember is that it is a heavy car, and like most road cars (with the exception of a few such as the Lotus Elige twins, 911 GT3 etc.) is not really a car you would want to use primarily as a track weapon. Nevertheless, the OEM CCM brakes are remarkably resilient and you will cook your tires long before the brakes (not something one can say about an OEM V8V of similar vintage). I have PS Cup 2's on my V12VS which are definitely a step up from the OEM PZero Corsas, but the temperatures have to be carefully monitored, and even then they will overheat rapidly.
I would have serious concerns about cost if I regularly tracked a V12VS, specifically with respect to CCM wear and hideous cost of replacement. I suppose you might be able to retrofit cast iron brakes (just as anyone who is serious about tracking their GT3 will not choose the PCCB option unless they want to break the bank) but that is beyond my level of dedication. Unfortunately there is no OEM cast iron brake option on the V12VS.
The V12VS has plenty of power, but the power to weight ratio is not really any better than with a GT3 due to the excess mass. I am afraid you would not be able to get to GT3 levels of handling without serious investment, and only then by ruining any prospects of using the car comfortably on the road, never mind what you would be doing to the resale value. The GT3's intrinsic handling and especially braking advantages due to engine layout and weight balance, at any rate, would never be attainable no matter how much cash you threw at a V12VS. A GT12 gets you closer, but IMHO still no cigar.
Edited by quench on Saturday 24th July 15:45
Thanks quench, that’s some great info and insight.
I guess the question arises a fair bit as the GT3 is the benchmark for a ‘drive to’ track car, it can even hold its own (in the right hands) against lighter cars on smaller tracks.
For this reason I am very impressed with the GTCs abilities to run with them and is (so far) equally unbreakable & undaunted by events, though it eats cup2s (3-4 track days)
I am very reluctant to lose that ‘game’ i can have with the GT3s and the surprise it inflicts, it’s all good fun and GT3 owners seem to have a very good attitude toward it and I’ve had some great tussles with them
But! that V12 noise I so want! since testing the SVJ that noise has to be in my life, if I could drop a V12 in the GTC it’d be perfect I guess
I think you’ve answered things though tbh, no way a fettled V12 S will match my current car or the GT3 so I’ll have to look on.
I might well test a Murcilago and not use it on track at all and just keep the GTC for track work, that would actually cost less than buying either GT12 or SVJ, both of which are too hardcore for road use imo (suspect on gt12 as not driven) and I’d do at least 2-3k km p.a on the road.
I’ll test a Murcilago which is where I started out.
Thanks again, appreciate your input.
I guess the question arises a fair bit as the GT3 is the benchmark for a ‘drive to’ track car, it can even hold its own (in the right hands) against lighter cars on smaller tracks.
For this reason I am very impressed with the GTCs abilities to run with them and is (so far) equally unbreakable & undaunted by events, though it eats cup2s (3-4 track days)
I am very reluctant to lose that ‘game’ i can have with the GT3s and the surprise it inflicts, it’s all good fun and GT3 owners seem to have a very good attitude toward it and I’ve had some great tussles with them
But! that V12 noise I so want! since testing the SVJ that noise has to be in my life, if I could drop a V12 in the GTC it’d be perfect I guess
I think you’ve answered things though tbh, no way a fettled V12 S will match my current car or the GT3 so I’ll have to look on.
I might well test a Murcilago and not use it on track at all and just keep the GTC for track work, that would actually cost less than buying either GT12 or SVJ, both of which are too hardcore for road use imo (suspect on gt12 as not driven) and I’d do at least 2-3k km p.a on the road.
I’ll test a Murcilago which is where I started out.
Thanks again, appreciate your input.
I’ve got a GT3 which I drive to track days and track….the car that rivals them without a doubt are McLaren’s but you are in to much higher ownership expenses particularly if you want to keep it covered under factory warranty, I was lucky enough to have a few laps in a McLaren 620R recently at Silverstone…..was absolutely bloody superb on track…..serious improvement in grip levels over my GT3 but apparently not pleasant on road.
Not sure where you are posting from; if Europe/UK this next comment is probably irrelevant. Also, it's probably not relevant if you are a marque snob (I'll freely own up to that).
Here in North America, Corvettes and to a lesser degree Vipers are relatively inexpensive and are some of the few front-engined, rear drive cars that can give GT3's serious competition. Lately, the hottest Camaros and Mustangs have also proven quite track capable, punching well above their price range, although TBH all the American performance cars are now getting quite pricey; it's just a relative thing when you compare to Porsche.
Here in North America, Corvettes and to a lesser degree Vipers are relatively inexpensive and are some of the few front-engined, rear drive cars that can give GT3's serious competition. Lately, the hottest Camaros and Mustangs have also proven quite track capable, punching well above their price range, although TBH all the American performance cars are now getting quite pricey; it's just a relative thing when you compare to Porsche.
quench said:
Not sure where you are posting from; if Europe/UK this next comment is probably irrelevant. Also, it's probably not relevant if you are a marque snob (I'll freely own up to that).
Here in North America, Corvettes and to a lesser degree Vipers are relatively inexpensive and are some of the few front-engined, rear drive cars that can give GT3's serious competition. Lately, the hottest Camaros and Mustangs have also proven quite track capable, punching well above their price range, although TBH all the American performance cars are now getting quite pricey; it's just a relative thing when you compare to Porsche.
Good shout, i’m in europe so the vette & viper, zl1 etc are very viable, owned c5/c6 & been in the z06 c7 and they are very capable, the ACR in particular has my attention, their lap times are certainly good enough but this move isnt about lap times, i was just using the GT3 as a yard stick for,the sort of performance i want.Here in North America, Corvettes and to a lesser degree Vipers are relatively inexpensive and are some of the few front-engined, rear drive cars that can give GT3's serious competition. Lately, the hottest Camaros and Mustangs have also proven quite track capable, punching well above their price range, although TBH all the American performance cars are now getting quite pricey; it's just a relative thing when you compare to Porsche.
This move is/was about the V12 noise on track which it seems I cant get to..
z06, zl1 or ACR dont sound or go any better than my current car but certainly arent as good as a road car (imo), not a badge snob by any means (as my ownership shows)
GM released some sound clips of the 2023 ZR1 with the flat plane crank the other day, that sounds incredible for a V8, very similar to the Ferrari but i’d wager it’ll be similar to ferraris low - mid sound, which is bloody horrible, bit like the svj I just tested actually, it means revving it hard everywhere you go to get to that noise, bit to tiring for me which is why it ruled the car out as an all rounder (road and track)
I think a new combo could be C7 ZR1 or tweaked Z06 for track (don't like the V10 low revving sound)
And then have a V12 S vantage or Vanquish for the road might be quite good combo.
If the budget allowed, would you pick the V12 S Vanquish over the Vantage V12 S for the the later tech? i’d hunt down the hens teeth manual Vantage i think.. i’m guessing the the vanquish is a heavier car but has better road manners, with (what i assume it has) selectable suspension, but also assume the vantage can achieve equal sound to vanquish with a valved fi exhaust?
Edited by LeroyLoser on Sunday 25th July 08:20
Is this the kind of glorious sound and track performance you would like ?
V12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aodrDyM6y8w
V8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep88IJSV6VA
Now that the later (Mercedes engine) Vantage is being raced, there are GT3s available to buy, but only a few GTE cars were built.
LeroyLoser said:
If the budget allowed, would you pick the V12 S Vanquish over the Vantage V12 S for the the later tech? i’d hunt down the hens teeth manual Vantage i think.. i’m guessing the the vanquish is a heavier car but has better road manners, with (what i assume it has) selectable suspension, but also assume the vantage can achieve equal sound to vanquish with a valved fi exhaust?
The V12VSs have switchable suspension (normal, sport, track). It’s the V12Vs (circa 2010 +/-) that don’t. The V12VSs also have a sport button that opens exhaust valves at low and high revs. Edited by LeroyLoser on Sunday 25th July 08:20
The V12VSs from MY16 onwards have the waterfall centre console that appears in the Vanquish. Lightweight carbon fibre seats are highly recommended.
There are plenty of exhaust upgrade options for both cars. Mainly:
- secondary decat
- primary decat usually with high flow secondaries
- replace the exhaust manifold completely with a bespoke equal tube length set up
- the AM performance pack, retrofitted by a dealer.
Those all give varying noise modifications and varying amounts of additional power.
Cheib said:
I’ve got a GT3 which I drive to track days and track….the car that rivals them without a doubt are McLaren’s but you are in to much higher ownership expenses particularly if you want to keep it covered under factory warranty, I was lucky enough to have a few laps in a McLaren 620R recently at Silverstone…..was absolutely bloody superb on track…..serious improvement in grip levels over my GT3 but apparently not pleasant on road.
I like them but chose the GTC over one originally, they lack character for me, a scalpel, whereas the GTC was a hammer and sounded better. also, as you’ve identified, GT3 owners know the McLarens capabilities, I love being a bit of an underdog, std the car could match the GT3 (991), fettled it’s quicker than the 992 (just)The point of the thread though is to find a V12 that’ll do the odd track day as an equal to the GTC/3 ie drive to the track as well.
As much as that Aston GT looks fun on racecarsdirect it’s certainly not user friendly enough, can’t be arsed with trailers etc.
I have tracked a V8VS jointly with V12VS´s on track days.
Quench summarizes the issues: The V12 is very heavy. And the V12 is very front heavy because all the excess weight compared to a V8V is in front of the front axle. It will eat tyres! And it will eat brakes. It is absolutely required to use Michelin Cup 2s because other wise you will be changing several sets of tyres a day. The balance will never get close to a 911.
The traction control systems of the old Vantage are not suited for track days. Most likely you will switch it off. Not a perfectly relaxed feeling then.
Despite to the V12 power – officially 563 bhp – on straights it seems to be slower compared to an AMG GTC or a 911. Heavy weight, and low torque of a naturally aspirated engine are contributing to this.
Certainly the Vantage's dynamic can be altered with easy measures. But that will not bring you close to a 911 GT3. No way to get there.
Performance wise an AMG GT R would be closest to a 911 GT3 on a track day.
Options may be a GT4 race car. The V8V Vantage as a GT4 is quite cheap because in championships it is no longer a competitive car. I really like the sound, possibly still the best in class. But that is a matter of taste. Certainly not a V12. It is exotic, but not really an underdog? And only few track days permit race cars and street cars jointly in the same session.
Another option could be a Corvette as a track tool (no street use). I think the most clever and easy to drive option.
A GT3 is really a complex tool. Have you ever watched the amount of work going into that car before the first lap is done on a track? If you would enjoy driving that, at least in Europe you would find professional race teams which would lease the car for a few race car track days. You don´t need to invest into such a car.
Quench summarizes the issues: The V12 is very heavy. And the V12 is very front heavy because all the excess weight compared to a V8V is in front of the front axle. It will eat tyres! And it will eat brakes. It is absolutely required to use Michelin Cup 2s because other wise you will be changing several sets of tyres a day. The balance will never get close to a 911.
The traction control systems of the old Vantage are not suited for track days. Most likely you will switch it off. Not a perfectly relaxed feeling then.
Despite to the V12 power – officially 563 bhp – on straights it seems to be slower compared to an AMG GTC or a 911. Heavy weight, and low torque of a naturally aspirated engine are contributing to this.
Certainly the Vantage's dynamic can be altered with easy measures. But that will not bring you close to a 911 GT3. No way to get there.
Performance wise an AMG GT R would be closest to a 911 GT3 on a track day.
Options may be a GT4 race car. The V8V Vantage as a GT4 is quite cheap because in championships it is no longer a competitive car. I really like the sound, possibly still the best in class. But that is a matter of taste. Certainly not a V12. It is exotic, but not really an underdog? And only few track days permit race cars and street cars jointly in the same session.
Another option could be a Corvette as a track tool (no street use). I think the most clever and easy to drive option.
A GT3 is really a complex tool. Have you ever watched the amount of work going into that car before the first lap is done on a track? If you would enjoy driving that, at least in Europe you would find professional race teams which would lease the car for a few race car track days. You don´t need to invest into such a car.
This may seem a little counter intuitive, but I would not try to have a v12 as a track car. Mainly because any modern v12 car is not really suited to track work, but equally important is the noise problem. I doubt any v12 would pass most track day noise limits. And then looking at noise from an enjoyment point of view is also rather pointless on a track day because you have your helmet on, you are concentrating etc. I dont know about others, but the last thing I care about on a track day is how my car sounds! I care more about racing lines, technique, braking, not crashing, not crashing and not crashing. I care about how my car sounds on the road, which is a v12's natural habitat! Doesnt really answer OP's question. There is a reason why GT3s are so popular for track days.
cypriot said:
This may seem a little counter intuitive, but I would not try to have a v12 as a track car. Mainly because any modern v12 car is not really suited to track work, but equally important is the noise problem. I doubt any v12 would pass most track day noise limits. And then looking at noise from an enjoyment point of view is also rather pointless on a track day because you have your helmet on, you are concentrating etc. I dont know about others, but the last thing I care about on a track day is how my car sounds! I care more about racing lines, technique, braking, not crashing, not crashing and not crashing. I care about how my car sounds on the road, which is a v12's natural habitat! Doesnt really answer OP's question. There is a reason why GT3s are so popular for track days.
Its a good point and one i’m coming round to, the weight of the V12 is just too much, even mid mounted in the SVJ its too much, Watching some SVJ track times it struggles to match the Hurracan perf. Gt3 on normal tracks, manages better at the ring but watching on board footage it certainly is as i found it, a heavy handfull.JohnG1 said:
OP wrote:
The point of the thread though is to find a V12 that’ll do the odd track day as an equal to the GTC/3 ie drive to the track as well.
You can't. Next question.
Posted earllier The point of the thread though is to find a V12 that’ll do the odd track day as an equal to the GTC/3 ie drive to the track as well.
You can't. Next question.
LeroyLoser said:
This move is/was about the V12 noise on track which it seems I cant get to..
I think a new combo could be C7 ZR1 or tweaked Z06 for track (don't like the V10 low revving sound)
And then have a V12 S vantage or Vanquish for the road might be quite good combo.
I’m in no way dissapointed with the AMG on track now its been ‘GTRd’ its an awesome bit of kit, it was just the V12 sound that has seduced.I think a new combo could be C7 ZR1 or tweaked Z06 for track (don't like the V10 low revving sound)
And then have a V12 S vantage or Vanquish for the road might be quite good combo.
I think a standard Aventador or manual Murcielago for accoasional weekend blasts might be where its at, the Vantage or Vanquish are lovely but they are far to close astheicaly and in purpose to the AMG which it looks like i’ll keep.
I think a standard AV sat between our family S63 cabrio and AMG GTC roadster would be a lovely thing to look back at as well, i f i got rid of the GTC in the future then a shuffle toward the DBS Superlegera might be a nice move.
I’ll go and test a standard AV and see how it is as a road car, also a manual Murci.
Thanks for all the input peeps, lovely to see how interactive and helpful you Aston guys are, thanks
Edited by LeroyLoser on Monday 26th July 07:07
Nbgring said:
I have tracked a V8VS jointly with V12VS´s on track days.
Quench summarizes the issues: The V12 is very heavy. And the V12 is very front heavy because all the excess weight compared to a V8V is in front of the front axle. It will eat tyres! And it will eat brakes. It is absolutely required to use Michelin Cup 2s because other wise you will be changing several sets of tyres a day. The balance will never get close to a 911.
The traction control systems of the old Vantage are not suited for track days. Most likely you will switch it off. Not a perfectly relaxed feeling then.
Despite to the V12 power – officially 563 bhp – on straights it seems to be slower compared to an AMG GTC or a 911. Heavy weight, and low torque of a naturally aspirated engine are contributing to this.
Certainly the Vantage's dynamic can be altered with easy measures. But that will not bring you close to a 911 GT3. No way to get there.
Performance wise an AMG GT R would be closest to a 911 GT3 on a track day.
Options may be a GT4 race car. The V8V Vantage as a GT4 is quite cheap because in championships it is no longer a competitive car. I really like the sound, possibly still the best in class. But that is a matter of taste. Certainly not a V12. It is exotic, but not really an underdog? And only few track days permit race cars and street cars jointly in the same session.
Another option could be a Corvette as a track tool (no street use). I think the most clever and easy to drive option.
A GT3 is really a complex tool. Have you ever watched the amount of work going into that car before the first lap is done on a track? If you would enjoy driving that, at least in Europe you would find professional race teams which would lease the car for a few race car track days. You don´t need to invest into such a car.
I was at the ring recently and the amount of gt3s was staggering, they even sound nice at the top of the revs, not so much everywhere esle, just not what i’m looking for, ive never liked 911s since testing in the 00s and although they're exterior styling is much better now, everywhere else they just leave me cold tbh, thats where the AMG wins, its as quick but it sounds better, interior & exterior is better looking to me, its also proving to be as unbreakable lap after lap, not as economical on tires but thats a mute point at this end tbh, the GTR is quicker than a std GT3, 1 x ecu map and its very nearly GT3RS quick & a very enjoyable drive.Quench summarizes the issues: The V12 is very heavy. And the V12 is very front heavy because all the excess weight compared to a V8V is in front of the front axle. It will eat tyres! And it will eat brakes. It is absolutely required to use Michelin Cup 2s because other wise you will be changing several sets of tyres a day. The balance will never get close to a 911.
The traction control systems of the old Vantage are not suited for track days. Most likely you will switch it off. Not a perfectly relaxed feeling then.
Despite to the V12 power – officially 563 bhp – on straights it seems to be slower compared to an AMG GTC or a 911. Heavy weight, and low torque of a naturally aspirated engine are contributing to this.
Certainly the Vantage's dynamic can be altered with easy measures. But that will not bring you close to a 911 GT3. No way to get there.
Performance wise an AMG GT R would be closest to a 911 GT3 on a track day.
Options may be a GT4 race car. The V8V Vantage as a GT4 is quite cheap because in championships it is no longer a competitive car. I really like the sound, possibly still the best in class. But that is a matter of taste. Certainly not a V12. It is exotic, but not really an underdog? And only few track days permit race cars and street cars jointly in the same session.
Another option could be a Corvette as a track tool (no street use). I think the most clever and easy to drive option.
A GT3 is really a complex tool. Have you ever watched the amount of work going into that car before the first lap is done on a track? If you would enjoy driving that, at least in Europe you would find professional race teams which would lease the car for a few race car track days. You don´t need to invest into such a car.
As i said, not looking to replace it for track really, other than I just want that V12 noise (damn my SVJ test
)Looks like I’ll have to do things a different way..
woodsypedia said:
Save yourself a lot of money and buy an Ariel Atom. I have the Atom for fast road and track work - and the V12V for dinners and countryside blasts. I looked at tracking the V12V but the bills could get astronomical.
Great value for money, had one & a caterham back in the day, they are immense fun but prefer my current, far more user friendly to get to the track and as much fun when i get there, they are great though much cheaper as you say but i’m not looking to save money tbh.BlackWidow13 said:
LeroyLoser said:
If the budget allowed, would you pick the V12 S Vanquish over the Vantage V12 S for the the later tech? i’d hunt down the hens teeth manual Vantage i think.. i’m guessing the the vanquish is a heavier car but has better road manners, with (what i assume it has) selectable suspension, but also assume the vantage can achieve equal sound to vanquish with a valved fi exhaust?
The V12VSs have switchable suspension (normal, sport, track). It’s the V12Vs (circa 2010 +/-) that don’t. The V12VSs also have a sport button that opens exhaust valves at low and high revs. Edited by LeroyLoser on Sunday 25th July 08:20
The V12VSs from MY16 onwards have the waterfall centre console that appears in the Vanquish. Lightweight carbon fibre seats are highly recommended.
There are plenty of exhaust upgrade options for both cars. Mainly:
- secondary decat
- primary decat usually with high flow secondaries
- replace the exhaust manifold completely with a bespoke equal tube length set up
- the AM performance pack, retrofitted by a dealer.
Those all give varying noise modifications and varying amounts of additional power.
Keep debating GT8/12 but tend to drive circuits where lightness is more useful than raw power and I can fling my track toy (a Cosworth powered Westfield) around without any real running costs.
LeroyLoser said:
I’m in no way dissapointed with the AMG on track now its been ‘GTRd’ its an awesome bit of kit, it was just the V12 sound that has seduced.
I think a standard Aventador or manual Murcielago for accoasional weekend blasts might be where its at, the Vantage or Vanquish are lovely but they are far to close astheicaly and in purpose to the AMG which it looks like i’ll keep.
FWIW, an AMG GT was suggested to me when I was looking around at the time of buying the V12V. I'm not sure I'd buy the similarity comments!I think a standard Aventador or manual Murcielago for accoasional weekend blasts might be where its at, the Vantage or Vanquish are lovely but they are far to close astheicaly and in purpose to the AMG which it looks like i’ll keep.
At some point I suspect I will buy an Aventador S or SV but I have a number of projects on the go at present that means that most of my cars aren't getting the miles they used to, so adding another seems excessively frivolous!
The big problem about tracking V12 Vantages or indeed GT8/12 is noise. Except for special "noisy days" there isn't a track in the UK that permits tracking a GT8/12 due to the noice. The only car that can be tracked unhinged is a Porsche GT3 (not even the 991 GT3RS passes the noise limit at Goodwood).
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