Range of ranges
Discussion
Just following up on previous questions on EV ownership and want to ask about actual range. When you throw in 4 passengers, luggage, air con/heater, bum warmers, headlights and wipers etc. how does your range vary? Assume open road driving is more detrimental unlike a petrol/diesel?
Also anyone towed with one? Assume torque is there, but does it eat the electricity plus another drain on electricity through light connections.
Also anyone towed with one? Assume torque is there, but does it eat the electricity plus another drain on electricity through light connections.
My my experience the following has the biggest impact on range - towing aside.
Everything else make little to no difference to range, but high speed, in bad weather, in the cold and you can halve the advertised range.
- Speed (high is bad)
- Weather (including wind)
- Temperature (low is bad)
Everything else make little to no difference to range, but high speed, in bad weather, in the cold and you can halve the advertised range.
Tom8 said:
Just following up on previous questions on EV ownership and want to ask about actual range. When you throw in 4 passengers, luggage, air con/heater, bum warmers, headlights and wipers etc. how does your range vary? Assume open road driving is more detrimental unlike a petrol/diesel?
Also anyone towed with one? Assume torque is there, but does it eat the electricity plus another drain on electricity through light connections.
Actually depends on manufacturer too!Also anyone towed with one? Assume torque is there, but does it eat the electricity plus another drain on electricity through light connections.
Aircon use in the i3 is really bad! So I have a pretty big drop in range during summer due to this. Heater in winter isnt too bad, but its well known in the i3 forums that you should use the seat heaters instead (if you can) as its much more efficient! Additional weight will always impact things, but again, depends on car and manufacturer - massive wide high rolling resistance tires will be impacted more than skinny bicycle wheels (like the i3).
As others have mentioned, higher speeds eat range, but there are sweet spots at relatively high speeds that are good. And stop / start city traffic is excellent for EV's with one-pedal driving turned on. You end up recuperating a lot of energy and the gap widens to ICE. But as you mention, open roads are good where you can maintain a more consistent speed and take advantage of any elevation changes. Speaking of which, hills! They kill range though, but not so much on the way down!
Weight not so much, nor the 12v stuff but heating the cabin is a big one (I don’t have a heat pump), then speed, outside temperature, wind and rain. I can get about WLTP range at the moment (about 20C outside so don’t even need AC) but figure on 30% less on a wet winter day.
A bike on the roof is about 15% off the range in mixed driving. Roofbox a bit less.
Towing is far more about aero drag than weight - a big box trailer or caravan has much more effect than a low trailer that’s inside the shadow of the car.
A bike on the roof is about 15% off the range in mixed driving. Roofbox a bit less.
Towing is far more about aero drag than weight - a big box trailer or caravan has much more effect than a low trailer that’s inside the shadow of the car.
Oh, and for reference - BMW i3 Rex (94) - EPA range is supposed to be 114 - best I have seen is 129 miles (no aircon, 20 C weather). Typically see 90-95 consistently though. Worst I have seen is 84 on a very hot day (42 C). Winter does seem to make a difference, but for me, not so much. Rarely freezes in winter and I do have a garage that gets used. So the GOM (Guess-O-Meter) is pretty accurate.
I work on 80% of 80%
Other EV's you might apply a 90% rule, but Tesla advise against charging above 90% in all but one model (the SR+) and you'll never want to plan on arriving somewhere with less than 10% so your working range is 80% before you start (90% if you can charge to 100%)
The estimate for the range in summer using WLTP isn't actually too bad, maybe a bit optomistic, and in winter on a long run the battery will heat up, the cabin will heat up and once warm , maintaining it isn't that difficult assuming one journey, so sticking to legal speed limits you might get 80% of the WLTP figure in winter. Less if its really cold or wet or into a head wind, or multiple shorter journeys on a charge.
So putting that together, if the car has a 300 mile range (assuming Tesla) you're looking at 270 down to 30 miles as the working band (90% down to 10%), which is 240 miles, and in winter you can get 80% of that, you've a working range of about 200 real miles for a journey. Of course you can driver slower, charge higher and risk going lower, but thats the maths I recommend as a sensible, safe band to work on and make buying decisions on. (I learnt the hard way when I had a 210 mile round trip to Leeds and got a Tesla with a 270 mile range back in 2015 and didn;t manage to do the trip once on a charge).
Other EV's you might apply a 90% rule, but Tesla advise against charging above 90% in all but one model (the SR+) and you'll never want to plan on arriving somewhere with less than 10% so your working range is 80% before you start (90% if you can charge to 100%)
The estimate for the range in summer using WLTP isn't actually too bad, maybe a bit optomistic, and in winter on a long run the battery will heat up, the cabin will heat up and once warm , maintaining it isn't that difficult assuming one journey, so sticking to legal speed limits you might get 80% of the WLTP figure in winter. Less if its really cold or wet or into a head wind, or multiple shorter journeys on a charge.
So putting that together, if the car has a 300 mile range (assuming Tesla) you're looking at 270 down to 30 miles as the working band (90% down to 10%), which is 240 miles, and in winter you can get 80% of that, you've a working range of about 200 real miles for a journey. Of course you can driver slower, charge higher and risk going lower, but thats the maths I recommend as a sensible, safe band to work on and make buying decisions on. (I learnt the hard way when I had a 210 mile round trip to Leeds and got a Tesla with a 270 mile range back in 2015 and didn;t manage to do the trip once on a charge).
Heres Johnny said:
I work on 80% of 80%
Other EV's you might apply a 90% rule, but Tesla advise against charging above 90% in all but one model (the SR+) and you'll never want to plan on arriving somewhere with less than 10% so your working range is 80% before you start (90% if you can charge to 100%)
The estimate for the range in summer using WLTP isn't actually too bad, maybe a bit optomistic, and in winter on a long run the battery will heat up, the cabin will heat up and once warm , maintaining it isn't that difficult assuming one journey, so sticking to legal speed limits you might get 80% of the WLTP figure in winter. Less if its really cold or wet or into a head wind, or multiple shorter journeys on a charge.
So putting that together, if the car has a 300 mile range (assuming Tesla) you're looking at 270 down to 30 miles as the working band (90% down to 10%), which is 240 miles, and in winter you can get 80% of that, you've a working range of about 200 real miles for a journey. Of course you can driver slower, charge higher and risk going lower, but thats the maths I recommend as a sensible, safe band to work on and make buying decisions on. (I learnt the hard way when I had a 210 mile round trip to Leeds and got a Tesla with a 270 mile range back in 2015 and didn;t manage to do the trip once on a charge).
A lot of maths! On that assumption, say it is 200 miles range on the calculation and you needed to cover say 250, how much time would you need charging on the journey to complete it assuming you can charge fully at destination to come back?Other EV's you might apply a 90% rule, but Tesla advise against charging above 90% in all but one model (the SR+) and you'll never want to plan on arriving somewhere with less than 10% so your working range is 80% before you start (90% if you can charge to 100%)
The estimate for the range in summer using WLTP isn't actually too bad, maybe a bit optomistic, and in winter on a long run the battery will heat up, the cabin will heat up and once warm , maintaining it isn't that difficult assuming one journey, so sticking to legal speed limits you might get 80% of the WLTP figure in winter. Less if its really cold or wet or into a head wind, or multiple shorter journeys on a charge.
So putting that together, if the car has a 300 mile range (assuming Tesla) you're looking at 270 down to 30 miles as the working band (90% down to 10%), which is 240 miles, and in winter you can get 80% of that, you've a working range of about 200 real miles for a journey. Of course you can driver slower, charge higher and risk going lower, but thats the maths I recommend as a sensible, safe band to work on and make buying decisions on. (I learnt the hard way when I had a 210 mile round trip to Leeds and got a Tesla with a 270 mile range back in 2015 and didn;t manage to do the trip once on a charge).
kambites said:
Towing does horrific things to range. Depending what you're towing, it could easily knock over 50% off it. Other than that they're generally pretty good at it because they are, by their very nature, heavy and stable. Not many EVs are type approved for towing though.
Interesting so you can't/shouldn't tow? Living in countryside with stock boxes to transport animals that would be an issue for me. Tom8 said:
Interesting so you can't/shouldn't tow? Living in countryside with stock boxes to transport animals that would be an issue for me.
Legally you can't tow unless the vehicle has been approved for it, no; and if it has been approved you can't tow over the weight it was rated to when it was approved. Some of the big SUV EVs are approved but most family EVs are not. Even those which are, many will have too low a rating for towing livestock around (as would most small ICE cars, in fact). Even the bigger EV SUVs are generally limited to less than two tonnes, although I think the Model-X is a bit higher. It will change over time, but for now the market for people who want to tow heavy stuff is just too small for the EV makers to care about.
Edited by kambites on Friday 6th August 12:54
kambites said:
Legally you can't tow unless the vehicle has been approved for it, no; and if it has been approved you can't tow over the weight it was rated to when it was approved. Some of the big SUV EVs are approved but most family EVs are not. Even those which are, many will have too low a rating for towing livestock around (as would most small ICE cars, in fact).
Even the bigger EV SUVs are generally limited to less than two tonnes, although I think the Model-X is a bit higher. It will change over time, but for now the market for people who want to tow heavy stuff is just too small for the EV makers to care about.
Interesting stuff, thank you.Even the bigger EV SUVs are generally limited to less than two tonnes, although I think the Model-X is a bit higher. It will change over time, but for now the market for people who want to tow heavy stuff is just too small for the EV makers to care about.
Edited by kambites on Friday 6th August 12:54
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Of course it is. Electric motors are perfect for providing the torque characteristics required for pulling heavy things, which is why really heavy vehicles like trains are all electric final-drive. EVs aren't really suitable for towing heavy things huge distances but the vast majority of people who move livestock around in anything other than an HGV don't do so over long distances. Heavy duty towing also makes one of EVs biggest advantage, their weight, an advantage because extra weight in the towing vehicle improves stability of the whole rig.
For every posh horsie type in this country towing a pet behind their range-rover, there's 50 farmers (OK probably a slight exaggeration) moving sheep and cows a few miles between fields. Even amongest those who own horses most will rarely, if ever, tow them more than a few miles. The only horse owners I can imagine would struggle on mass would be race horse breeders.
Edited by kambites on Friday 6th August 13:45
Tom8 said:
A lot of maths! On that assumption, say it is 200 miles range on the calculation and you needed to cover say 250, how much time would you need charging on the journey to complete it assuming you can charge fully at destination to come back?
Adding 50 miles, assuming the battery is fairly empty and warm takes about:2.5 hours on a 7kw destination charger
20 mins on a 50kw rapid
10 mins if your car can rapid charge at 100kw or more
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