Discussion
A few months back during the hot weather I started to notice my 156 running a little hot. On closer inspection I noticed it was running a little low on water. Considering it had just had a service I assumed that the garage had either not topped it up correctly or there had been an air lock that hey hadn't picked up and the level had dropped. Either way I thought, no hard done and just topped it back up. The following day it started to run hot again. This time I looked a little closer to find that the radiator was leaking.....£200.00 later and I had myself a new rad'
Everything was fine until a week or so ago when I left the Mrs sat in the car for 20 mins whilst I called in on a job of mine. Whilst I was gone she turned on the ignition, (but did not start the engine) so that she could have the climate running, when I returned the temp guage was approaching the 'BOOM' zone. Ever since then the engine has once again been running hot (But only in traffic), but this time it is not losing any water.
I was just wondering before I 'shell out' another few hundred quid on the 'sucking through their teeth' mechanics at my local dealer whether anyone could give me any ideas. Because I am completely confused by this one.
Thanks in advance
Sixpot
Everything was fine until a week or so ago when I left the Mrs sat in the car for 20 mins whilst I called in on a job of mine. Whilst I was gone she turned on the ignition, (but did not start the engine) so that she could have the climate running, when I returned the temp guage was approaching the 'BOOM' zone. Ever since then the engine has once again been running hot (But only in traffic), but this time it is not losing any water.
I was just wondering before I 'shell out' another few hundred quid on the 'sucking through their teeth' mechanics at my local dealer whether anyone could give me any ideas. Because I am completely confused by this one.
Thanks in advance
Sixpot
Something's a bit odd about your story there.
(a) Without the engine running, how is the engine coolant going to get hotter?
(b) Without the engine running, how is the climate control / aircon going to function?
(c) As a general rule, its not a good idea to leave a car sat with the ignition on and the engine not running anyway.
As regards the underlying problem of overheating, Alfa water pumps aren't renowned for being the best in the world. The plastic impellers are known to fail from time to time and metal replacements are a good investment.
You say you've just had a new rad put in... perhaps now you really do have one of the problems you thought you had the 1st time, i.e. airlock / low coolant etc?
(a) Without the engine running, how is the engine coolant going to get hotter?
(b) Without the engine running, how is the climate control / aircon going to function?
(c) As a general rule, its not a good idea to leave a car sat with the ignition on and the engine not running anyway.
As regards the underlying problem of overheating, Alfa water pumps aren't renowned for being the best in the world. The plastic impellers are known to fail from time to time and metal replacements are a good investment.
You say you've just had a new rad put in... perhaps now you really do have one of the problems you thought you had the 1st time, i.e. airlock / low coolant etc?
pdV6 said:
Something's a bit odd about your story there.
(a) Without the engine running, how is the engine coolant going to get hotter?
(b) Without the engine running, how is the climate control / aircon going to function?
(c) As a general rule, its not a good idea to leave a car sat with the ignition on and the engine not running anyway.
As regards the underlying problem of overheating, Alfa water pumps aren't renowned for being the best in the world. The plastic impellers are known to fail from time to time and metal replacements are a good investment.
You say you've just had a new rad put in... perhaps now you really do have one of the problems you thought you had the 1st time, i.e. airlock / low coolant etc?
Well what I would say was that I did have a word to say to the Mrs when I returned to the car as I know that running ignition without the engine on is not a good idea, not least because it could flatten the battery. In terms of the air con I have no idea how these things work, so whether or not it works independently of the engine running, you tell me. All I can say is that the temp guage was going through the roof and the engine was definitely not running.
The engine itself I do have a little more idea about and to reiterate my point. The confusing thing is that the coolant level seems fine, and there does not appear to be any leaks. When you mention the water pump possibly failing, would this be evident by a leak or is it something that just prevents the water getting to where it needs to, to cool the engine?
pdV6 said:
Something's a bit odd about your story there.
(a) Without the engine running, how is the engine coolant going to get hotter?
(b) Without the engine running, how is the climate control / aircon going to function?
(c) As a general rule, its not a good idea to leave a car sat with the ignition on and the engine not running anyway.
As regards the underlying problem of overheating, Alfa water pumps aren't renowned for being the best in the world. The plastic impellers are known to fail from time to time and metal replacements are a good investment.
You say you've just had a new rad put in... perhaps now you really do have one of the problems you thought you had the 1st time, i.e. airlock / low coolant etc?
I recently had the radiator of my 156 replaced - it had been running progressively hotter and almost went off the scale when I was stuck in a long traffic jam on a hot day. Scary stuff. The radiator was absolutely rotten after just 72,000 miles and four and a bit years.
I was told that the 156 cooling fan doesn't operate when the ignition is switched off, so, if the engine gets very hot, its temperature will actually increase for a period of time after you switch off.
The climate control won't function without the ignition, but something else I was told, which totally contradicts everything I have ever understood, is that switching on the climate control will help to cool the engine.
I've never known a 2.0l head gasket to go, but based on the symptoms you describe I think I'd be having a careful look at it...
Edited to add that I just noticed your name and I don't know why I assumed you were talking about a 2.0l...
The water pump thing is a common fault and is well worth a look. They aren't expensive to replace. I'd still check out the head gasket...
>> Edited by Mon Ami Mate on Wednesday 20th July 11:21
Mon Ami Mate said:
I've never known a 2.0l head gasket to go, but based on the symptoms you describe I think I'd be having a careful look at it...
You have just confirmed exactly what I was concerned about. But I have been regularly checking the water and there is no sign of oil, although there are some 'tide' marks inside the header tank that for all I know could have been there for ages. One thing is for certain though...the water is clear.
Anyone else had any experience of head gasket issues with a 2.0l
Name came from when I used to own a 6 pot Beemer
Sixpot
>> Edited by sixpot on Wednesday 20th July 11:27
Mon Ami Mate said:
The water pump thing is a common fault and is well worth a look. They aren't expensive to replace. I'd still check out the head gasket...
>> Edited by Mon Ami Mate on Wednesday 20th July 11:21
Is checking out the head gasket something I (A leyman) can do....or do I need to take it to my local grease monkey?
Make sure there is no water in the oil, as well as vice versa. Have a look at the dipstick. The head gasket is a less likely scenario than the water pump or a leak (are you sure the levels are staying constant?).
If the head gasket is fine, the water levels constant and the radiator new and fully functioning, I'd bet beer that the water pump is the problem.
If the head gasket is fine, the water levels constant and the radiator new and fully functioning, I'd bet beer that the water pump is the problem.
Mon Ami Mate said:
I'd bet beer that the water pump is the problem.
Can I hold you to that?
This may seem a bit of a stupid question, but how can you check if there is water in the oil?....especially if it is only a small amount.
The water level on each occasion I have checked has been at the same level.....All I can say is I hope it is the water pump.
sixpot said:
I'd bet beer that the water pump is the problem.
Can I hold you to that?
This may seem a bit of a stupid question, but how can you check if there is water in the oil?....especially if it is only a small amount.
The water level on each occasion I have checked has been at the same level.....All I can say is I hope it is the water pump.
Oil and water don't mix. Look at the dipstick - if there is water in the oil it will be very apparent.
Mon Ami Mate said:
Mon Ami Mate said:
I'd bet beer that the water pump is the problem.
Can I hold you to that?
This may seem a bit of a stupid question, but how can you check if there is water in the oil?....especially if it is only a small amount.
The water level on each occasion I have checked has been at the same level.....All I can say is I hope it is the water pump.
Oil and water don't mix. Look at the dipstick - if there is water in the oil it will be very apparent.
Just done so and there is no evidence of water.....just looks like it normally does.....Hopefullly all I need is a water pump. Any idea where they are located on 2.0 TS's
DavidCane said:
Is it actually overheating OR has your missus managed to knacker the temp sender (or another relevant electronic system) but leaving the ignition on for 20 mins without the engine running?
Interesting point....but my gut reaction says that it is is overheating, because it only does it on moderately hot to hot days and when sat in traffic. My instinct tells me that if the sensors/senders were knackered the guage would be all over the place and go up and down randomly.
rustybin said:
Sorry If it is a granny and eggs question but...
Have you checked that the fan comes on when it gets hot. Might explain why it's mainly a problem in traffic.
Short answer no......last time I remember it working was fairly recently, can't remeber whether it was pre or post problem occuring though. You know when you over look something because you convince yourself it isn't that.....Only now that you have pointed it out do I doubt myself. I'll keep you posted...
A mate of mine has a 2 litre 156 and had much the same trouble EXCEPT that his gauge needle started going higher than normal in traffic BUT the fan would then cut in and bring the temperature down. He thought the fan sounded noisier than usual too. He couldn't understand why it seemed to be running hot most of the time but on the occasions the fan cut in, the temperature dropped more wquickly than usual.
I think the answer might be that the 156 has a 2-speed fan. There is a low speed (inaudible from inside the car with the engine running) that comes in at a particular temperature and then a high speed which comes in at a higher temperature. My guess is that whatever controls the low speed setting has packed up so he only has the higher fan speed. This, I think, is why his engine runs hotter but the fan sounds noisier. I'd be inclined to check that out first.
As far as the climate control goes, when you turn on the aircon, the low speed fan runs continuously (I think) to keep some air flowing through the condenser (the second "radiator" in front of the the cooling system radiator). This also drags air through the main radiator - hence the claim that putting the aircon on improves the cooling (which it will, up to a point).
Turning the ignition on without the engine running won't help for more than 30 seconds or so. The engine turns the air conditioning pump so without the engine actually turning, the pump won't turn and the evaporator won't get cold. Once the engine stops, it will warm back up to ambient temperature pretty quickly and all you will get out of the vents is slightly damp air at ambient temperature.
I think the answer might be that the 156 has a 2-speed fan. There is a low speed (inaudible from inside the car with the engine running) that comes in at a particular temperature and then a high speed which comes in at a higher temperature. My guess is that whatever controls the low speed setting has packed up so he only has the higher fan speed. This, I think, is why his engine runs hotter but the fan sounds noisier. I'd be inclined to check that out first.
As far as the climate control goes, when you turn on the aircon, the low speed fan runs continuously (I think) to keep some air flowing through the condenser (the second "radiator" in front of the the cooling system radiator). This also drags air through the main radiator - hence the claim that putting the aircon on improves the cooling (which it will, up to a point).
Turning the ignition on without the engine running won't help for more than 30 seconds or so. The engine turns the air conditioning pump so without the engine actually turning, the pump won't turn and the evaporator won't get cold. Once the engine stops, it will warm back up to ambient temperature pretty quickly and all you will get out of the vents is slightly damp air at ambient temperature.
Avocet said:
A mate of mine has a 2 litre 156 and had much the same trouble EXCEPT that his gauge needle started going higher than normal in traffic BUT the fan would then cut in and bring the temperature down. He thought the fan sounded noisier than usual too. He couldn't understand why it seemed to be running hot most of the time but on the occasions the fan cut in, the temperature dropped more wquickly than usual.
I think the answer might be that the 156 has a 2-speed fan. There is a low speed (inaudible from inside the car with the engine running) that comes in at a particular temperature and then a high speed which comes in at a higher temperature. My guess is that whatever controls the low speed setting has packed up so he only has the higher fan speed. This, I think, is why his engine runs hotter but the fan sounds noisier. I'd be inclined to check that out first.
As far as the climate control goes, when you turn on the aircon, the low speed fan runs continuously (I think) to keep some air flowing through the condenser (the second "radiator" in front of the the cooling system radiator). This also drags air through the main radiator - hence the claim that putting the aircon on improves the cooling (which it will, up to a point).
Turning the ignition on without the engine running won't help for more than 30 seconds or so. The engine turns the air conditioning pump so without the engine actually turning, the pump won't turn and the evaporator won't get cold. Once the engine stops, it will warm back up to ambient temperature pretty quickly and all you will get out of the vents is slightly damp air at ambient temperature.
Thanks for this.....I've ben doing a little investigation work since reading this and a lot of what you say makes sense. Rang my local Alfa dealer and it was confirmed to me that there are actually two seperate fans (however the bird on reception relayed this to me from a technician, not got a great deal of confidence) I'm buggered if I can find a second. I think you are are right there are 2 speeds on one fan. When I start the engine from cold, with air con on...there is no sign of a fan...after a minute or so...the fans kicks off at a rate of knots however no sooner has it got up to full pelt it cuts out and comes to a rest again. it repeats this about once every 20-30 seconds. This does not seem right to me.....Any ideas?
Thanks for this.....I've ben doing a little investigation work since reading this and a lot of what you say makes sense. Rang my local Alfa dealer and it was confirmed to me that there are actually two seperate fans (however the bird on reception relayed this to me from a technician, not got a great deal of confidence) I'm buggered if I can find a second. I think you are are right there are 2 speeds on one fan. When I start the engine from cold, with air con on...there is no sign of a fan...after a minute or so...the fans kicks off at a rate of knots however no sooner has it got up to full pelt it cuts out and comes to a rest again. it repeats this about once every 20-30 seconds. This does not seem right to me.....Any ideas?[/quote]
Sorry, you're right. I've just started the wife's 1.8 up and tried it. The fan does NOT run continuously - it cycles in an out just as you describe. At idle with the aircon set to max cold and the interior fan set to "auto" it was running for about 15 seconds and then off for about 25. Mind you, it isn't especially warm here today! The condenser gets almost too hot to keep your hand on before the fan cuts in and is comfortably warm to touch as the fan cuts out. The only thing I would say is that the fan didn't seem to be turning particularly quickly when it was running - I think yours might be on its high speed. I couldn't hear it from inside the car with the doors and windows shut above the noise from the interior fan.
It might be worth letting the car idle with the aircon switched off and seeing if the fan speed is the same when it cuts in - also try letting it idle until the fan cuts in and seeing what the temperature gauge says when it cuts in.
Sorry, you're right. I've just started the wife's 1.8 up and tried it. The fan does NOT run continuously - it cycles in an out just as you describe. At idle with the aircon set to max cold and the interior fan set to "auto" it was running for about 15 seconds and then off for about 25. Mind you, it isn't especially warm here today! The condenser gets almost too hot to keep your hand on before the fan cuts in and is comfortably warm to touch as the fan cuts out. The only thing I would say is that the fan didn't seem to be turning particularly quickly when it was running - I think yours might be on its high speed. I couldn't hear it from inside the car with the doors and windows shut above the noise from the interior fan.
It might be worth letting the car idle with the aircon switched off and seeing if the fan speed is the same when it cuts in - also try letting it idle until the fan cuts in and seeing what the temperature gauge says when it cuts in.
AN UPDATE....
It's still doing it...but all is not lost
I took it to the local Alfa dealership the other day, but of course they were reluctant to look at it (Even a quick butchers undfer the bonnet) without me handing over the keys to my house so I picked their brains as far as I could. So far the fan and water pump has been ruled out by A N Other. The Alfa tech' said that it is very unlikely to be the head gasket as there would be the obvious signs, so he said that it may well be the regulator. Apparently if you bridge the regulator with wire and this solves the problem you need a new regulator. The problem is I haven't a clue how to go about this or indeed where to find the regulator, apart from somewhere near the rad'
HELP.....PLEASE
It's still doing it...but all is not lost
I took it to the local Alfa dealership the other day, but of course they were reluctant to look at it (Even a quick butchers undfer the bonnet) without me handing over the keys to my house so I picked their brains as far as I could. So far the fan and water pump has been ruled out by A N Other. The Alfa tech' said that it is very unlikely to be the head gasket as there would be the obvious signs, so he said that it may well be the regulator. Apparently if you bridge the regulator with wire and this solves the problem you need a new regulator. The problem is I haven't a clue how to go about this or indeed where to find the regulator, apart from somewhere near the rad'
HELP.....PLEASE
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