Has BMW given up?
Discussion
BMW seems to be milking the brand rather than building it. In an age where everyone seems to have a halo hypercar there is nothing from BMW. "sports" is either M versions of other models - again with the badge being milked for mediocre M versions alongside the hardcore - or the 8 series which is the grand tourer. The Z4 is listed but only with 2.0 engines.
All seems a bit of a shame.
All seems a bit of a shame.
simonrockman said:
BMW seems to be milking the brand rather than building it. In an age where everyone seems to have a halo hypercar there is nothing from BMW. "sports" is either M versions of other models - again with the badge being milked for mediocre M versions alongside the hardcore - or the 8 series which is the grand tourer. The Z4 is listed but only with 2.0 engines.
All seems a bit of a shame.
Listed where ? quick look on the BMW Website shows they sell a Z M40i which is a six cylinder 3.0 ?All seems a bit of a shame.
Their styling at the moment does seem somewhat bizarre though, but they do seem to still sell plenty of cars.
As above they’ve not had a halo super car for eons.
They’re halo cars are the M versions of their normal cars. Whenever they release something expensive everyone bangs on about the lack of brand cache, so there’s probably not much point in them trying.
As for diluting the M brand, they’re no worse than Audi or Mercedes for that who are equally happy slapping an S or AMG badge on anything. Hell, even Hyundai are using the N badging for stuff and they’ve only had a halo model for a few years.
They’re halo cars are the M versions of their normal cars. Whenever they release something expensive everyone bangs on about the lack of brand cache, so there’s probably not much point in them trying.
As for diluting the M brand, they’re no worse than Audi or Mercedes for that who are equally happy slapping an S or AMG badge on anything. Hell, even Hyundai are using the N badging for stuff and they’ve only had a halo model for a few years.
If you had the choice of hype/supercars from AMG, Audi, Aston, Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lotus, etc. why do you feel the need for something from BMW too - is there simply not enough choice?
I mean, when an M5 is over £100k, how much would would you be willing to pay just to have a BMW badge on your car?
I mean, when an M5 is over £100k, how much would would you be willing to pay just to have a BMW badge on your car?
mmm-five said:
If you had the choice of hype/supercars from AMG, Audi, Aston, Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lotus, etc. why do you feel the need for something from BMW too - is there simply not enough choice?
I mean, when an M5 is over £100k, how much would would you be willing to pay just to have a BMW badge on your car?
.... because BMW fit perfectly in that group. Of your list, only Ferrari and lotus sit outside of the VAG and Merc family I mean, when an M5 is over £100k, how much would would you be willing to pay just to have a BMW badge on your car?
Not so long ago BMW seemed to take great pride in perfect 50/50 weight distribution, and RWD on the entire range.
Now they seemed to have noticed, probably because they were losing sales to Audi, that the majority of their customers don't want 'The Ultimate Driving Machine', they just want a badge and something that's easy to get in and out of.
Now they seemed to have noticed, probably because they were losing sales to Audi, that the majority of their customers don't want 'The Ultimate Driving Machine', they just want a badge and something that's easy to get in and out of.
They may not have been 'supercars' in the past but there were super cars.
Greatest hits:
E9 CSL, homologation special for racing.
2002 Ti & Turbo, The original fast compact saloon that paved the way for the 3 series.
E24 M635CSI, elegant and fast with real driver appeal.
E28 M5, say no more.
E30 M3, Homologation special and one of the greatest road cars ever.
E34 / E39 M5, class defining super saloons.
It seems to me that they decided some time ago that these cars were a bad idea, and found inspiration in the following:
E23 7 Series, expensive, complex, slow and not as good as the Jaguar or Mercedes competition.
E32 7 series, more expensive, more complex but actually a bloody good car. A looker too.
E31 8 series, even more complex, expensive and not great to drive, plus not as good looking or as good to drive as it's equivalent competition, 500SL/ DB7 / 928 GTS, yes even the venerated CSi.
E60 5 series, controversial looks, tech and not great reliability.
E65 7 series, take everything great about the E38 and throw it away, then take all the stuff that made people mad about the E60 and turn it up to 11.
Greatest hits:
E9 CSL, homologation special for racing.
2002 Ti & Turbo, The original fast compact saloon that paved the way for the 3 series.
E24 M635CSI, elegant and fast with real driver appeal.
E28 M5, say no more.
E30 M3, Homologation special and one of the greatest road cars ever.
E34 / E39 M5, class defining super saloons.
It seems to me that they decided some time ago that these cars were a bad idea, and found inspiration in the following:
E23 7 Series, expensive, complex, slow and not as good as the Jaguar or Mercedes competition.
E32 7 series, more expensive, more complex but actually a bloody good car. A looker too.
E31 8 series, even more complex, expensive and not great to drive, plus not as good looking or as good to drive as it's equivalent competition, 500SL/ DB7 / 928 GTS, yes even the venerated CSi.
E60 5 series, controversial looks, tech and not great reliability.
E65 7 series, take everything great about the E38 and throw it away, then take all the stuff that made people mad about the E60 and turn it up to 11.
JmatthewB said:
Not so long ago BMW seemed to take great pride in perfect 50/50 weight distribution, and RWD on the entire range.
Now they seemed to have noticed, probably because they were losing sales to Audi, that the majority of their customers don't want 'The Ultimate Driving Machine', they just want a badge and something that's easy to get in and out of.
What? no they really didn'tNow they seemed to have noticed, probably because they were losing sales to Audi, that the majority of their customers don't want 'The Ultimate Driving Machine', they just want a badge and something that's easy to get in and out of.
Varelco said:
They have given up on what you want from a car but not necessarily for what the majority want. If anything its quite the opposite.
This is probably right, over 1/3 of the BMW group sales is into China and they probably want something different compared to your average PH'er J4CKO said:
...but they do seem to still sell plenty of cars.
Their finance deals are very good. I'm not interested in starting the whole debate about PCP again but the monthly is always very competitive from BMW. Last time we went looking it was cheaper to have a new 3 series 320d touring than a new Mondeo Estate as the GFV held the whole deal up. Added into that there are few 'lookers' in the £25k-£40k segment anyway.
The z4 can come with a 3 litre 340hp engine - not too shabby (same as the original M +- ) ; emission standards has had an impact on pretty much all manufacturers (smaller cc and turbos); which in turn has had an impact on exhaust note which wasn’t great i the last generation m cars.
I won’t be going near a new BMW because I think they are fugly, but plenty will, either because they like the pig nose or they want a bmw (lots of value in the brand still), and lease deals etc are good due to residuals; the M2 was the last good looking car they produced imho and I quite fancy 1 of those next, although that said I quite like the 8; Simon their are plenty of other manufacturers to pick from and perhaps you just aren’t their target market anymore?
I won’t be going near a new BMW because I think they are fugly, but plenty will, either because they like the pig nose or they want a bmw (lots of value in the brand still), and lease deals etc are good due to residuals; the M2 was the last good looking car they produced imho and I quite fancy 1 of those next, although that said I quite like the 8; Simon their are plenty of other manufacturers to pick from and perhaps you just aren’t their target market anymore?
Chris32345 said:
JmatthewB said:
Not so long ago BMW seemed to take great pride in perfect 50/50 weight distribution, and RWD on the entire range.
Now they seemed to have noticed, probably because they were losing sales to Audi, that the majority of their customers don't want 'The Ultimate Driving Machine', they just want a badge and something that's easy to get in and out of.
What? no they really didn'tNow they seemed to have noticed, probably because they were losing sales to Audi, that the majority of their customers don't want 'The Ultimate Driving Machine', they just want a badge and something that's easy to get in and out of.
I think BMW are very good at making what their customers want. They've never really been about making supercars. They're not the best or the most reliable manufacturers, but they know how to make a car handle well. They're also very good at making parts interchangeable between models. Want a better set of wheels? Get a set from another model. Want to upgrade the brakes? Get a set from another model. Then there's exhaust backboxes, LSDs, and many other parts that can be swapped over if you want to.
smashy said:
I know know one thing their top of the range motors have got very expensive .In 2004 I was lucky to drive a new Alpina B3 Convertible over that summer, new £40k dead,In todays money that is £62k but they want £75k for a new M3 before options,
Though comparing like for like (as close as is possible since there is no Alpina B3/B4 convertible currently) a G20 B3 is £67k. Then consider the modern car has 50% more power, 100% more torque, is a much, much safer car should the worst happen due to advances in crash safety and is roomier. I could go on, but the point is you get a lot more car for your money than you did almost 20 years ago and they’ve obviously had to put more money into the thing, in real terms, so there’s more to account for when making price comparisons than just inflation. Which presumably explains why this is absolutely not a BMW only phenomenon. As an aside an M240i, whilst not being an Alpina (and thus being the poorer for it) is roughly the same size as an E46 B3, has similar (slightly more) power and could have been had brand new with easily available discounts for well under £40k in today’s money. So there’s an argument that if you can ignore the psychological pull of the ”halo” model that objectively the BMW line-up offers better value for money than it did back in the day.
Edited by Jonny Wishbone on Tuesday 10th August 20:35
Not sure BMW has given up. It's more of a combination with all modern cars being "better" (the gap in quality been a Ford/Vauxhall/Hyundai and a BMW/Mercedes is smaller than it's ever been) and feeling disconnected (drive by wire throttle, turbo engines, electric steering).
What will be interesting is how BEVs continue to erode these differences. For me, the main reason I repeatedly ended up with a BMW rather than a different brand was the fact that I could buy one with a bigger engine and rear wheel drive. Not sure I'd buy an electric BMW.
The brand is now more important than ever, as the engineering continues to be more generic.
Recently changed from an E91 335i to a 340i and have to say I've been largely disappointed with the B58 engine. Hoping a remap might change that.
What will be interesting is how BEVs continue to erode these differences. For me, the main reason I repeatedly ended up with a BMW rather than a different brand was the fact that I could buy one with a bigger engine and rear wheel drive. Not sure I'd buy an electric BMW.
The brand is now more important than ever, as the engineering continues to be more generic.
Recently changed from an E91 335i to a 340i and have to say I've been largely disappointed with the B58 engine. Hoping a remap might change that.
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