Unreasonable Expectations? LR Defender
Discussion
Looking for a sanity check to see if I'm being unreasonable in my expectations here.
- Distance bought a 2008 LR Defender 110 with 85k miles from an independent dealer.
- Prior to purchase asked usual questions about condition, photos of damage, service history, receipts etc - Provided with confirmation of new clutch fitted, bodywork in great condition for year, small rust patch from a knock on the rear.
- Place deposit
- Dealer puts through MOT, zero advisories (probably should've been more skeptical here... it's a 13yr old LR product)
- Car arrives after numerous delays from dealer - Looks beautiful, a few more damage patches than expected (flaking paint on the chequerplate, another rust patch to deal with, undisclosed dent on the roof (only noticed when observing from upstairs in the hours)
- Oil Leak, but not excessive (Front timing case)
- Oil Leak, but not excessive (Transfer box)
- Oil Leak, but not excessive (Nearside steering swivel)
- Oil Leak, but not excessive (Rear differential)
- Corrosion to crossmember [Somewhat expected... I don't care about this as it's budgeted for]
- Exhaust system deteriorating [They said full replacement likely within a year]
- Brake pipe corroded (offside rear)
- Steering droparm dust cover split
- Central locking doesn't work on rear doors (Common fault, replace wiring)
- Aircon won't switch to recirculate (Jammed completed)
- Rear cargo windows seem to have been stuffed closed with newspaper? Cheap cheap.
Edited by J1990 on Tuesday 17th August 18:23
TheDrownedApe said:
How many available nationwide?
Do you NEED it now?
Great price?
Niche version/extras?
Answer these Qs and make your decision.
Zero need, it's purely a toy.Do you NEED it now?
Great price?
Niche version/extras?
Answer these Qs and make your decision.
Price was 'fair' based on the faultless MOT and just needing a little TLC with regards to the bodywork, price was a small chunk above other models which showed the same level of work required for the underside and so I feel I've overpaid a bit on it.
Spec/Extras... Very much standard, our only essential criteria was aircon due to the OH being unbearable when it's too hot
I bought a 2010 90 XS with very low millage in 2018 and sold it early 2020. It was the best example I could find and I paid a premium for the privilege.
In the two years of ownership I had to replace most of the consumables inc rusting exhaust, door seals and many more. It was leaking oil on my drive from day one and I could never find the origin despite many people trying. Had to replace the whole air con system and heating controls to solve a problem with the blower. But the thing that got me was the rust, it was always playing on my mind and it was creeping in here and there. This car was stored in a garage, never outside at night and the rust and paint bubbles would keep coming. The thought of my very expensive pride and joy rotting away got too much and I decided it had to go.
I bought the car purely for the look and went into it a bit naive but would I get one again… Yes if I had FU money and it was purely a toy for occasional use. I’m sure they will be worth a fortune in years to come.
In the two years of ownership I had to replace most of the consumables inc rusting exhaust, door seals and many more. It was leaking oil on my drive from day one and I could never find the origin despite many people trying. Had to replace the whole air con system and heating controls to solve a problem with the blower. But the thing that got me was the rust, it was always playing on my mind and it was creeping in here and there. This car was stored in a garage, never outside at night and the rust and paint bubbles would keep coming. The thought of my very expensive pride and joy rotting away got too much and I decided it had to go.
I bought the car purely for the look and went into it a bit naive but would I get one again… Yes if I had FU money and it was purely a toy for occasional use. I’m sure they will be worth a fortune in years to come.
ZX10R NIN said:
Have you spoken to the dealer yet?
Not yet, simple reason being that I want a genuine sanity check. I don't want to come across as the used car buyer who expects things to be 'as new', especially on a working car like that but I also don't expect to be swindled by things being hidden away and or bodged in the hopes that I'd either not notice or not challenge it.Need to know where the line is and hoping for some sanity here.
The Defender market is different to buying any other vehicle, normal rules do not apply.
Nothing you have listed is unexpected for a 2008 Defender with 85k.
If it is otherwise a genuine vehicle I would get the issues sorted and take a long term view.
Wait till the EML comes on and the fun starts with the MAF sensor and EGR!
Do you have the dealer photos? We could then give an indication of a reasonable value?
The great thing about owning a Defender is getting to know all its faults and nuances and slowly working through these to improve the driving and ownership experience.
Nothing you have listed is unexpected for a 2008 Defender with 85k.
If it is otherwise a genuine vehicle I would get the issues sorted and take a long term view.
Wait till the EML comes on and the fun starts with the MAF sensor and EGR!
Do you have the dealer photos? We could then give an indication of a reasonable value?
The great thing about owning a Defender is getting to know all its faults and nuances and slowly working through these to improve the driving and ownership experience.
Edited by astroarcadia on Tuesday 17th August 21:19
It doesn't matter how new it is, a Defender is going to behave like a classic car and you need to calibrate your expectations accordingly.
It will always be a rolling restoration, even if you can briefly get it 100% perfect. However parts are generally cheap and diagnosing problems is straightforward for a specialist.
I think you may have been slightly hoodwinked, but not to a significant degree. They all leak oil from various orifices, if they don't then there's no oil in. I would definitely try and get a new exhaust and brake lines paid for by the dealer, but if that doesn't happen then suck it up.
Get a few months ownership under your belt, do the things with it that it does well and at that point you will either love it blindly or want to sell it.
Don't think about it as if it was a car, rather it's a lovely, stupid, wonderful dog that will always need looking after, occasionally drive you up the wall but ultimately will be your best ever companion.
It will always be a rolling restoration, even if you can briefly get it 100% perfect. However parts are generally cheap and diagnosing problems is straightforward for a specialist.
I think you may have been slightly hoodwinked, but not to a significant degree. They all leak oil from various orifices, if they don't then there's no oil in. I would definitely try and get a new exhaust and brake lines paid for by the dealer, but if that doesn't happen then suck it up.
Get a few months ownership under your belt, do the things with it that it does well and at that point you will either love it blindly or want to sell it.
Don't think about it as if it was a car, rather it's a lovely, stupid, wonderful dog that will always need looking after, occasionally drive you up the wall but ultimately will be your best ever companion.
Colleague has got a 2010 Defender 90 with the 2.4 Puma engine a good number of years ago and it seemed in good condition when bought. Regular servicing and wax oiled from then on. Bloody thing still rusts away though at an unbelievable rate and there's always something expensive needing done each year. I think all the injectors where changed as well.
It's noisy, cramped, uncomfortable, uneconomical and terrible road manners... if being honest it's a pile of junk, yet there is something eccentric and lovable about it and obviously very capable off-road. Personally, I wouldn't have one unless using it purely on a farm or such, but even then I'd probably choose an alternative.
Just two months ago it went bang, so we stripped it down for a full rebuild. Meanwhile, the parts list for the rest of the car has grown arms and legs. The side steps are rotten through, all the door seals have practically disintegrated, rear diff is knackered, rust....everywhere, headlights buggered along with all the fittings, radiator knackered... argh it just keeps on going. At well over three grand now just for parts, thankfully the in-house mechanic is on the case so no labour charges.
I think you really, really have to want one to get/keep one.
It's noisy, cramped, uncomfortable, uneconomical and terrible road manners... if being honest it's a pile of junk, yet there is something eccentric and lovable about it and obviously very capable off-road. Personally, I wouldn't have one unless using it purely on a farm or such, but even then I'd probably choose an alternative.
Just two months ago it went bang, so we stripped it down for a full rebuild. Meanwhile, the parts list for the rest of the car has grown arms and legs. The side steps are rotten through, all the door seals have practically disintegrated, rear diff is knackered, rust....everywhere, headlights buggered along with all the fittings, radiator knackered... argh it just keeps on going. At well over three grand now just for parts, thankfully the in-house mechanic is on the case so no labour charges.
I think you really, really have to want one to get/keep one.
I've had an 08 110 XS since new, now on about 130k
I wouldn't be overly concerned other than the engine. We'd had very little go wrong up to 100k, certainly spent less than £1k other than servicing. Then the engine went bang. Apparently the early Puma engines had issues with oil spray under the pistons and tend to grenade at that sort of mileage.
I had a brand new engine fitted for about £5k which taking into account the lack of previous expense and lack of depreciation didn't seem to be the end of the world.
I wouldn't bother having oil weeps done. If it doesn't leave a puddle that's good enough for me. Our rear windows were fixed at the last service, they develop a rattle, wasn't itemised but not expensive.
Also, all the family love it, perfect for the potholed and single tracked roads near where we live.
I wouldn't be overly concerned other than the engine. We'd had very little go wrong up to 100k, certainly spent less than £1k other than servicing. Then the engine went bang. Apparently the early Puma engines had issues with oil spray under the pistons and tend to grenade at that sort of mileage.
I had a brand new engine fitted for about £5k which taking into account the lack of previous expense and lack of depreciation didn't seem to be the end of the world.
I wouldn't bother having oil weeps done. If it doesn't leave a puddle that's good enough for me. Our rear windows were fixed at the last service, they develop a rattle, wasn't itemised but not expensive.
Also, all the family love it, perfect for the potholed and single tracked roads near where we live.
Thanks everyone for your input so far - I think Maturin's reply is roughly where my head was at when trying to be sensible, identifying which uncovered bits I should be challenging the dealer on and which bits are simply an accepted part of defender ownership from day #1.
I'll be getting in touch with the dealer, letting them know the recent MOT status and seeing if they're happy to address exhaust/brakes/windscreen. I won't be challenging on oil leaks and the bodywork feels like a non-issue given that they're basically buckets of rust which just need replacing one panel at a time and the 'rolling restoration' bit is something I can absolutely cope with... I think.
Great to hear of other people's love-hate relationship with the defender and I'm expecting to swear at it a lot, despise motorway travel in it and generally ask myself why I own it... hopefully to be made up by exploring off the beaten path throughout Wales and Cornwall, time will tell.
Again, thanks all.
I'll be getting in touch with the dealer, letting them know the recent MOT status and seeing if they're happy to address exhaust/brakes/windscreen. I won't be challenging on oil leaks and the bodywork feels like a non-issue given that they're basically buckets of rust which just need replacing one panel at a time and the 'rolling restoration' bit is something I can absolutely cope with... I think.
Great to hear of other people's love-hate relationship with the defender and I'm expecting to swear at it a lot, despise motorway travel in it and generally ask myself why I own it... hopefully to be made up by exploring off the beaten path throughout Wales and Cornwall, time will tell.
Again, thanks all.
An MOT from the selling dealer is not a vehicle inspection, and also not unentirely unexpected that it would pass with no advisories as all that generates is a list of things for the dealer to fix. OK, maybe the delays were due to fixing something that would cause a fail but he's not going to give you a list of negotiation weapons.
Frankly, an MOT from the selling dealer is not worth the paper it's er, not written on any more other than a tick in the box for the next 12 months.
Frankly, an MOT from the selling dealer is not worth the paper it's er, not written on any more other than a tick in the box for the next 12 months.
Dashnine said:
An MOT from the selling dealer is not a vehicle inspection, and also not unentirely unexpected that it would pass with no advisories as all that generates is a list of things for the dealer to fix. OK, maybe the delays were due to fixing something that would cause a fail but he's not going to give you a list of negotiation weapons.
Frankly, an MOT from the selling dealer is not worth the paper it's er, not written on any more other than a tick in the box for the next 12 months.
Appreciate what you're saying and that's why I felt like putting it through another MOT with a centre I'd used previously, especially given that I'm 200+ miles from the dealer. However, the dealer didn't do the MOT themselves, but it was done by a nearby registered place, which I assume gives them some nice tidy MOT passes with minimal inspection.Frankly, an MOT from the selling dealer is not worth the paper it's er, not written on any more other than a tick in the box for the next 12 months.
maturin23 said:
It doesn't matter how new it is, a Defender is going to behave like a classic car and you need to calibrate your expectations accordingly.
It will always be a rolling restoration, even if you can briefly get it 100% perfect. However parts are generally cheap and diagnosing problems is straightforward for a specialist.
I think you may have been slightly hoodwinked, but not to a significant degree. They all leak oil from various orifices, if they don't then there's no oil in. I would definitely try and get a new exhaust and brake lines paid for by the dealer, but if that doesn't happen then suck it up.
Get a few months ownership under your belt, do the things with it that it does well and at that point you will either love it blindly or want to sell it.
Don't think about it as if it was a car, rather it's a lovely, stupid, wonderful dog that will always need looking after, occasionally drive you up the wall but ultimately will be your best ever companion.
Definitely this for me too. Appreciate no-one wants to be scammed in any way wrt to the purchase. But ongoing, think of owning and maintaining a Defender like painting the Fourth Bridge - it goes on and on and on. It will always be a rolling restoration, even if you can briefly get it 100% perfect. However parts are generally cheap and diagnosing problems is straightforward for a specialist.
I think you may have been slightly hoodwinked, but not to a significant degree. They all leak oil from various orifices, if they don't then there's no oil in. I would definitely try and get a new exhaust and brake lines paid for by the dealer, but if that doesn't happen then suck it up.
Get a few months ownership under your belt, do the things with it that it does well and at that point you will either love it blindly or want to sell it.
Don't think about it as if it was a car, rather it's a lovely, stupid, wonderful dog that will always need looking after, occasionally drive you up the wall but ultimately will be your best ever companion.
I'm not remotely handy with a spanner so value finding a good LR/Defender specialist to get stuff done. I've recently found a decent one where I live now and he's been great, so I'll be working through my ongoing backlog of tasks with him.
In my case, I'm not focussing on cosmetics yet - want the mechanics sorted so it's all running sweat. Then in future, the bells and whistles.
Although part of me doesn't want it (in my case it's a 2004 TD5 90 CSW) looking too slick as it will become more of a thief magnet.
OP hope you get this one sorted or find a better one. Enjoy the journey.
Defenders are one of those cars that people either 'get' or don't. I'm in the former and have a 2012 110 XS. They are what they are but have so much character you forgive it almost anything. Every drive is an occasion and people always let you in at junctions. That's before we get to the fantastic following and owners cult, sorry-clubs. We all wave to each other and they are basically a boys toy (can we still say that now?) with a million firms selling lots of options. Keep it classic and clean? No problem. Pimp it up to the max ('Khan' crap excluded) then all good.
They rust, they rattle they leak. They aren't the last word, first word or any word in refinement.
I love mine to bits. It's going in for a serious facelift soon and they hold their value. Very few cars are an investment but get the right one and you're sorted. Plus they are incredibly popular abroad. Some of the prices you see are insane (the 'Chelsea Truck' ones are over £200k which is bonkers) but they are a cult vehicle and the new ones just haven't caught on. Plus the new owners don'd do the 'Landy Wave' which is a bit sad.
Security is a real issue so there are plenty of things you can do as scumbags love stripping them.
They rust, they rattle they leak. They aren't the last word, first word or any word in refinement.
I love mine to bits. It's going in for a serious facelift soon and they hold their value. Very few cars are an investment but get the right one and you're sorted. Plus they are incredibly popular abroad. Some of the prices you see are insane (the 'Chelsea Truck' ones are over £200k which is bonkers) but they are a cult vehicle and the new ones just haven't caught on. Plus the new owners don'd do the 'Landy Wave' which is a bit sad.
Security is a real issue so there are plenty of things you can do as scumbags love stripping them.
I bought my 1987 90 two years ago, with the previous few years Mot's being clear. The chap who had owned it had basically rebuilt it, but I was expecting a couple of advisories at the next MoT. Luckily it just had leaky swivel seals (due to sitting over lockdown. No mention the next year) and a leak from a power steering hose (loose jubilee clip). I treat mine as a rolling project, as there is always something to do - I have just been in the garage tightening up the wheel arches. I do small jobs myself, but a Land Rover friendly garage is a must. The odd dent, bit of rust or flakey paint all adds to the character in my eyes. The Twisted/Arkonik/Urban stuff is all very nice, and I would happily have one, but I love the knockabout charm of mine, especially after previously owning a concours VW. They may be slow, noisy, uncomfortable, leaky and not terribly nice to drive, but we love them !
Loving all of this feedback, it's the reassurance I think I was in need of.
I've spoken with the dealer, he's basically said I can sod off with regards to the advisories on the MOT because they're not fails and thus not a problem - A little frustrating that there was zero give but it is what it is.
Windscreen the dealer wants a photo to decide if to take action (heated screen so best price I've seen so far is about £500 to replace... honestly haven't looked that hard though) and he's asked me to source a quote for fixing the central locking and they'll get it sorted. Definitely feel that the first MOT centre, even if independent from the dealer, has a nice little arrangement for minor advisories to be left off entirely.
At the end of the day, the car passed both MOTs, it's a pretty little thing and it's putting a smile on our faces every time we drive it. Given the limited depreciation on these I'm happy enough putting £2-3k/year in to it for maintenance, just hoping it waits a few years for the love to develop before it grenades the engine.
I've spoken with the dealer, he's basically said I can sod off with regards to the advisories on the MOT because they're not fails and thus not a problem - A little frustrating that there was zero give but it is what it is.
Windscreen the dealer wants a photo to decide if to take action (heated screen so best price I've seen so far is about £500 to replace... honestly haven't looked that hard though) and he's asked me to source a quote for fixing the central locking and they'll get it sorted. Definitely feel that the first MOT centre, even if independent from the dealer, has a nice little arrangement for minor advisories to be left off entirely.
At the end of the day, the car passed both MOTs, it's a pretty little thing and it's putting a smile on our faces every time we drive it. Given the limited depreciation on these I'm happy enough putting £2-3k/year in to it for maintenance, just hoping it waits a few years for the love to develop before it grenades the engine.
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