This doesn't sound like good news for AMG or AML.
Discussion
Beckson said:
And how long will AMG keep making a tiny number of engines yearly just for AM? .... or doing any sort of developmental work etc on it.
Why not just put the AMG GT's M178 in the AML line?
The supply chain issues have become a problem across the automotive sector (the most frequently reported being microchip shortages). The agreement between AML and AMG is such that even if Mercedes no longer used the M177 (which in the next 18 months might well be the case, as it's 'old' in their eyes - 2015 it started production remember), it would still be built for Aston Martin unless the agreement is changed or ended.Why not just put the AMG GT's M178 in the AML line?
AMG and Mercedes had already committed to downsizing its engines for its own models, so only the most premium models would retain a V8 engine, so that aspect isn't really news, and they'll still be building some fairly monstrous cars with 4.0 V8 hybrids (such an engine finding its way into the DBX in ~800bhp tune perhaps). The M178 LS2 from the Black Series will be the foundation of the engine in the Valhalla, and at some point the regular M178 might supersede the M177 in the Vantage and DB11, but they have plenty of untapped potential in the meantime (having been unable to uncork it under the previous agreement signed before AP took charge).
On a long enough timeline, that V8 platform will only be found in an Aston application - I wont pretend that it'll make it any more acceptable to purists, but the argument of sharing an engine with a mainstream OEM then somewhat diminishes, and technically the agreement becomes little different to how Cosworth provide the halo model V12's as it becomes a straightforward engine building contract.
oilit said:
Vette - i am sure everyone will then complain that the V8 in the aston is ‘old technology’ along with the infotainment 
I think thats one of the key problems with going for the new generation of buyers. The new target audience is only happy with the latest and greatest thing, and as you say and engine that's now 6yrs old is "old" and nobody wants it anymore. If you dont have Apple carplay 7.2 (I made that up), then it sucks cos who wants 7.1 anymore - "I mean really, that's so yesterday!" 
Now if they dont have the current chart topping rapper endorsing it, and sitting on the paintwork then its not cool. And even the wrong rapper, using yesterdays rhymes, well that wouldn't be cool either.
Whereas us oldies were happy with the fact the car just looked, sounded and even smelt amazing. We didnt care that the previous gen V8 and V12 were both pushing like 20yrs old, and really didnt measure up to the newer engines, they had tons of character and that's what we valued.
You play with fire - you get burnt.
AdamV12V said:
I think thats one of the key problems with going for the new generation of buyers. The new target audience is only happy with the latest and greatest thing, and as you say and engine that's now 6yrs old is "old" and nobody wants it anymore. If you dont have Apple carplay 7.2 (I made that up), then it sucks cos who wants 7.1 anymore - "I mean really, that's so yesterday!"
Now if they dont have the current chart topping rapper endorsing it, and sitting on the paintwork then its not cool. And even the wrong rapper, using yesterdays rhymes, well that wouldn't be cool either.
Whereas us oldies were happy with the fact the car just looked, sounded and even smelt amazing. We didnt care that the previous gen V8 and V12 were both pushing like 20yrs old, and really didnt measure up to the newer engines, they had tons of character and that's what we valued.
You play with fire - you get burnt.
The reality these days is that while you could build an achingly pretty sports car that is two steps behind the competition dynamically but regarded as beautiful to look at, the chances are it'll only be bought by a small group who believe it adheres to the 'ideals' of an Aston Martin. Truthfully, I think if you cast the net a bit wider (toward those 'new money youths' and so on), only the most nerdy consumers would be interested in or consider the age of an engine design as important. More important tend to be the horsepower and torque figures, and some very old engines still produce very healthy dollops of power. Now if they dont have the current chart topping rapper endorsing it, and sitting on the paintwork then its not cool. And even the wrong rapper, using yesterdays rhymes, well that wouldn't be cool either.
Whereas us oldies were happy with the fact the car just looked, sounded and even smelt amazing. We didnt care that the previous gen V8 and V12 were both pushing like 20yrs old, and really didnt measure up to the newer engines, they had tons of character and that's what we valued.
You play with fire - you get burnt.
I sometimes cringe when I read about the perception of what these 'new money' customers are in the eyes of longer term Aston owners are, because the customers are often just enthusiasts, they like the cars and they like the marque - we aren't all knuckle dragging morons only interested in cheap lease deals.
I'd agree that the current marketing strategy and who AML buddy up with when it comes to influencer tie-ins, is only confusing & alienating old guard customers though, but as I found to my cost, it's the direction they've chosen, and when I fed back that it was perhaps a bad idea, it was shunned and that feedback door was firmly closed in my face (no more factory trips for me!).
Ultimately, the big push over the last decade has been in infotainment systems, as that's become a centre point for judging how current and technically savvy a car is. The current crop of cars are a function of the designs and systems being locked in when the technical partnership only allowed last gen Mercedes infotainment, which at the time of the agreement being signed, makes them decidedly old hat today. The revised agreement late in 2020 means that any face-lifted interior of a GT or SUV could have the latest MBUX derived system. At the risk of upsetting anybody - for many years, Aston's last gen cars had last gen infotainment, and nobody minded (the excuse being if you can fold the screen away, all sins are forgiven). It only became an issue when the DB11 and 4.0 Vantage arrived, but I suspect if we're being honest - it was because there was an appetite to 'build a case' against those models, despite the systems being an upgrade over what they replaced.
Bringing it back to engines for a moment, while the M177 is at the end of its life in AMG's eyes (for use in its own platforms, be it due to 'years served' or it being unsuitable because of the downsizing move), it is to the V8 engine, what the AM28 and AM29 were to the V12; a very solid basis that has great headroom for development, be it creating more power or being more efficient. It has some life left in it, but not without the assistance of electrification.
In summary, Aston has a good partnership in place now, where it didn't before (you cannot market yourself as being the pinnacle of your industry if the bits the customer interacts with are out of date IMO) - but it wont start to come to fruition immediately. I'd be reassured that they're leaving no stone un-turned in making the product lineup something that'll be desirable to all comers, but that's still a good year or so away probably.
NFC 85 Vette said:
I sometimes cringe when I read about the perception of what these 'new money' customers are in the eyes of longer term Aston owners are, because the customers are often just enthusiasts, they like the cars and they like the marque - we aren't all knuckle dragging morons only interested in cheap lease deals.
For the avoidance of doubt, Im a "new money" guy myself, self earnt every penny, started with nowt. Ive just been into cars since before I could afford them, and also not one who believes in borrowing money for so many things in life that you will in all likelihood never be able to pay them off (aka PCP deals really, lol) I recently saw an advert to pay for a holiday over 8 monthly instalments at just x.x% RPI. What has the world come to when people take a loan for the ultimate unnecessary luxury of a holiday. Anyway I digress a little....NFC 85 Vette said:
I'd agree that the current marketing strategy and who AML buddy up with when it comes to influencer tie-ins, is only confusing & alienating old guard customers though, but as I found to my cost, it's the direction they've chosen, and when I fed back that it was perhaps a bad idea, it was shunned and that feedback door was firmly closed in my face (no more factory trips for me!).
Interesting and it perhaps explains why AM seem to be entrenching themselves in the belief their new way forward is what the market wants. Ask for feedback and anyone who doesn't agree, well just strike them off the register so on the next session you will get an even greater level of acceptance. Worse than politicians! NFC 85 Vette said:
Ultimately, the big push over the last decade has been in infotainment systems, as that's become a centre point for judging how current and technically savvy a car is. The current crop of cars are a function of the designs and systems being locked in when the technical partnership only allowed last gen Mercedes infotainment, which at the time of the agreement being signed, makes them decidedly old hat today. The revised agreement late in 2020 means that any face-lifted interior of a GT or SUV could have the latest MBUX derived system. At the risk of upsetting anybody - for many years, Aston's last gen cars had last gen infotainment, and nobody minded (the excuse being if you can fold the screen away, all sins are forgiven). It only became an issue when the DB11 and 4.0 Vantage arrived, but I suspect if we're being honest - it was because there was an appetite to 'build a case' against those models, despite the systems being an upgrade over what they replaced.
On the whole I wouldnt disagree, however AMi III was superb. Even with a slight delay at launch it had both Apple Carplay and Android Auto way before the likes of Porsche were offering it on their range, and the open sat nav is just spot on too. The only real gripe was the small screen size, but that was of course limited by the physical size of the hole in the waterfall rather than any tech constraint. AMi III never really sold in enough volume to gain any meaninful positive feedback, before it was killed off and then replaced with older and inferior tech from MB, in the name of a strategic partnership to provide way more than just Infotainment, in the hope that on the whole it was a step forward. Little did they anticipate just how important things such as carplay would be, well maybe they did get some feedback but choose to strike those people off swiftly.
NFC 85 Vette said:
Bringing it back to engines for a moment, while the M177 is at the end of its life in AMG's eyes (for use in its own platforms, be it due to 'years served' or it being unsuitable because of the downsizing move), it is to the V8 engine, what the AM28 and AM29 were to the V12; a very solid basis that has great headroom for development, be it creating more power or being more efficient. It has some life left in it, but not without the assistance of electrification.
In summary, Aston has a good partnership in place now, where it didn't before (you cannot market yourself as being the pinnacle of your industry if the bits the customer interacts with are out of date IMO) - but it wont start to come to fruition immediately. I'd be reassured that they're leaving no stone un-turned in making the product lineup something that'll be desirable to all comers, but that's still a good year or so away probably.
I dont disagree with anything here, other than the last bit about it will be desireable to all comers. All new comers yes, maybe, but I dont know a single one of the many AM friends Ive made over the last 10yrs or so who would actually buy any of the new Astons now. I lie, one did, but he went on to buy a Ferrari too, so I think we can safely discount him. In summary, Aston has a good partnership in place now, where it didn't before (you cannot market yourself as being the pinnacle of your industry if the bits the customer interacts with are out of date IMO) - but it wont start to come to fruition immediately. I'd be reassured that they're leaving no stone un-turned in making the product lineup something that'll be desirable to all comers, but that's still a good year or so away probably.
Anyway the point is, I dont think there is anything they will, or probably can do now to get the old loyal customers back on side. I realise there is legislation pushing toward mortal sins such as electrification which neither AM or any other car maker can really do anything about, but it feels like AM are going beyond that in chasing this new market. They could be working with their existing customer base to take them on the journey to the new products, but Im quite sure they have no such intentions, and seem to show little remorse about leaving them out in the cold.
NFC 85 Vette said:
The reality these days is that while you could build an achingly pretty sports car that is two steps behind the competition dynamically but regarded as beautiful to look at, the chances are it'll only be bought by a small group who believe it adheres to the 'ideals' of an Aston Martin. Truthfully, I think if you cast the net a bit wider (toward those 'new money youths' and so on), only the most nerdy consumers would be interested in or consider the age of an engine design as important. More important tend to be the horsepower and torque figures, and some very old engines still produce very healthy dollops of power.
It is interesting thinking about the AML comments concerning "new younger customers", for the 2018 Vantage..
Similar comments were also made for the DB7 and 2005 Vantage. However, there are significant differences, because both the DB7 and 2005 Vantage were new models, having lower prices than other existing Aston Martins. Lower prices are bound to put the cars in reach of more (and younger) customers. The 2018 Vantage had a higher list price (adjusted for inflation it was fair) than its predecessor, but perhaps more significant, was above the psychological £100,000 level.
Another aspect is, as people become older, on average more have spare money to spend on unnecessary purchases. For a £100,000 sports car which appeals to a young generation, there will therefore be fewer people with enough spare money to make a purchase.
What do you think about the Lotus Emira strategy, Jon?
A beautiful looking car, but probably does not have top notch tech or the greatest power output. Even so, Lotus seem to have done a 2005 Vantage, with customers queuing to place their orders prior to production or even driving the car. Great exterior design can be a powerful sales tool.
Jon39 said:
What do you think about the Lotus Emira strategy, Jon?
A beautiful looking car, but probably does not have top notch tech or the greatest power output. Even so, Lotus seem to have done a 2005 Vantage, with customers queuing to place their orders prior to production or even driving the car. Great exterior design can be a powerful sales tool.
The Emira's been an interesting one; I think once all the excitement died down and the honeymoon period after the unveiling was over, there was (among some) a dawning realisation that the car's not going to be £60k, it'll probably be closer to £80k with options - it might lead to deposits being withdrawn, but with it being so long since an 'all new' model was launched from Lotus, there was likely to be decent uptake regardless of the price. A beautiful looking car, but probably does not have top notch tech or the greatest power output. Even so, Lotus seem to have done a 2005 Vantage, with customers queuing to place their orders prior to production or even driving the car. Great exterior design can be a powerful sales tool.
The interior looks excellent, but being brutally honest, Lotus interiors have always been sparse and so sprucing it up and making it look a bit more premium would have been relatively straightforward, it was simply that they're now making an effort to make the cabin feel a bit more luxurious. It should be a success, but Lotus by moving away from super lightweight, stripped out, focused sports cars, into that middle ground where Porsche sits the Cayman and Boxster (in pricing if not quality), might alienate a last gen Elise or Exige owner who think the Emira's spitting on Colin Chapman's grave, perhaps.
The exterior looks - I want to like it, but IMO there's a lot of design language similarities between it and the McLaren Artura, the Maserati MC20 and Ferrari 296. It's almost like they're built to fit the same brief, and you choose the one at the level you can afford. Of course that makes me sound like I cannot tell the difference between them - I'm aware of the design nuances, but they all just leave me a bit cold. As other car makers have witnessed in the last decade, it's very easy to go down a new path, lose your way, and some consider it as losing the identity of the product.
Where Lotus are in a better position than AML is that Geely are happy to be the benevolent parent, lending them as much pocket money as they say they need, without questioning what it's being spent on. Aston of course, have some financial support and technical partnerships, but are still trying to make ends meet without a parent company protecting them from the elements or injecting endless amounts of cash to bring new tech to the market. How Aston manage to produce the cars they do, which perform as well as they do, I find remarkable - because the opposition are in a different post code when it comes to R&D and infrastructure.
NFC 85 Vette said:
The Emira's been an interesting one; I think once all the excitement died down and the honeymoon period after the unveiling was over, there was (among some) a dawning realisation that the car's not going to be £60k, it'll probably be closer to £80k with options - it might lead to deposits being withdrawn, .....
Some coincidences with comparisons.
The 2005 Vantage was initially hinted at being a £60,000 car, which became (I think) £75,000 when production began.
Can you blame them though, after dealers began to close their order books.
( £60,000 in 2003 (when concept launched) being equivalent to £104,000 now. )
( £60,000 now, being equivalent to £35,000 in 2003 )
Your mention of Geely also matches Ford, who provided money and engineering guidance to Aston Martin, but they also did not interfere too much.
This month's Car magazine has some comments of interest from Moers on infotainment - apparently they're going to develop their own!
I'm at the point where I'd honestly laugh like a drain if the AMG V8 gets dropped and AML are left without a usable powerplant, when they had a V6 hybrid at least part way through development.
I'm at the point where I'd honestly laugh like a drain if the AMG V8 gets dropped and AML are left without a usable powerplant, when they had a V6 hybrid at least part way through development.
scampbird said:
This month's Car magazine has some comments of interest from Moers on infotainment - apparently they're going to develop their own!
I'm at the point where I'd honestly laugh like a drain if the AMG V8 gets dropped and AML are left without a usable powerplant, when they had a V6 hybrid at least part way through development.
It's unclear what the 'correct' approach is now - we've witnessed 6 years of existing customers complain about the use of Mercedes infotainment systems, and the fact that they're old tech. The management decided that developing one in-house would lead to a two-fold benefit; 1) you can update it whenever you like, and 2) those complaining about the origin of the system shouldn't be complaining any longer. Infotainment systems are vitally important to all car makers, and Aston's always relied on hand-me-downs from others. If you're seeking to offer the best products available, you need to have top notch kit, particularly when you're a small outfit. It's going to take some work, and cost a chunk, but the end result will mean no more reliance on a 3rd party.I'm at the point where I'd honestly laugh like a drain if the AMG V8 gets dropped and AML are left without a usable powerplant, when they had a V6 hybrid at least part way through development.
I don't believe the management expected the reception the announcement got, which appears to be "why on Earth would you develop your own, just use someone elses!". It's baffling, and I feel for those making the calls because they simply cannot do the right thing to appease a very vocal customer base.
AMG's already confirmed that neither the supply chain issue will affect AML in the short term, and even when Mercedes have no use for the V8 platform, it will be still be built for AML applications. While the TM01 V6 appeared to have been the saviour, the white knight...etc, it had been in development for close to 2 years before it had even been announced in public. That being the case, Euro 7 wasn't on the horizon at the time. With the gestation period of the project being as long as it was, once Moers came in, as each day passed it made less sense to try and press that engine into service (earliest being perhaps 2023) if in 2025 (when Euro 7 is meant to launch), it's no longer available to sell. Of course the belief in the Aston community was that it was Moers just trying to bring in as much tech from his former employer.
Euro 7 seeks to make it impossible, or at the very least impractical - for any internal combustion engine to be viable - not just the lairy end of the spectrum; it takes Euro 6 requirements and at best, cuts them in half (that's my uneducated assessment of how the regulations are set out with regard to emissions and particulates allowed). While AML gets a derogation due to the number of cars it builds per year being less than 10,000, it still needs to show willing and do what it can to lower the emissions output of the range. I'd have loved to see the TM01 engine come to life, it was one of Palmer's projects that might have actually got the purist collective on side, but it would have been a very short lived thing probably.
Again though, it's another management decision that being financially sound (when it needed financially sound decision making), doesn't meet with the approval of customers. I'd liken it to the company being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
macdeb said:
I'd rather wait, work, save and 'own it' rather than rent it contributing to a salesmans next holiday. Old school, miserable sod maybe, but new reg' car on neighbours drive only says 'debt' to me. 
Loosely linked to this, I had a good chat with my local dealer's business manager last month, who was explaining the breakdown of models in regard to cash or finance. Around 75% of all new Aston purchases are being financed, but the DBX had typically stood out as being primarily bought with cash. There's no obvious indicator as to why that is, but I found it interesting.Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff