Bosch 044 fuel pump and ethanol
Discussion
I already use ethanol resistant fuel hose, the fuel tank is made of metal (now wondering if the float for the sender will melt) so I'm figuring that the only thing that may be a weak point for using e10 fuel might be the pump.
Some googling has aussies saying that bosch 044 is good for over 500 hours on e85 so I'm assuming that it should be able to handle e10 without issue for a while yet, but it is getting on for 20 years old now so I was considering what I would replace it with if it did die.
Any suggestions of a compatible ethanol proof pump, and can anyone think of other things that may be effected by e10?
Some googling has aussies saying that bosch 044 is good for over 500 hours on e85 so I'm assuming that it should be able to handle e10 without issue for a while yet, but it is getting on for 20 years old now so I was considering what I would replace it with if it did die.
Any suggestions of a compatible ethanol proof pump, and can anyone think of other things that may be effected by e10?
TwinKam said:
Why not simply stick to E5?
Or better still, use Esso 'E5' which is actually 'E0' in most territories...
It's not just the corrosive properties of ethanol that make E10 such a poor choice of fuel for any car, let alone a TVR.
Absolutely, Esso Synergy Supreme is in most places ethanol free.Or better still, use Esso 'E5' which is actually 'E0' in most territories...
It's not just the corrosive properties of ethanol that make E10 such a poor choice of fuel for any car, let alone a TVR.
Plus it’s 99 octane.
I was just thinking along the lines of future proofing for when things do break, thought it a bit pointless not sticking ethanol proof stuff in there if it's available. My fuel pump has always been a bit on the loud side so it'll probably die at some point, I already use ethanol fuel line because I figured if I'm replacing it I may as well.
Non ethanol fuel might be available now, from one source, and it may only be e10 for the moment, but I've had the car for 10 years and I never plan on selling it so I try to do stuff once and do it right when I'm swapping parts out.
Non ethanol fuel might be available now, from one source, and it may only be e10 for the moment, but I've had the car for 10 years and I never plan on selling it so I try to do stuff once and do it right when I'm swapping parts out.
Bosch didn't just make an 044 for the UK market which was not ethanol resistant .. it's the same 044 sold worldwide, including in the states where they have had high ethanol content fuel for decades... google suggests it's been up to 10 percent in some states since the 1970s.
I think your pump will be safe...
I think your pump will be safe...
Remember,E10 has a significantly lower calorific value per unit volume than E5 or E5( with no ethanol,Esso Supreme 99+).
So,your immediate problem on using E10 is the engine will run weak.Ok,if you are just pootling about ,you might get away with it .
But,if you put your engine under higher load,it will get hot ,and induce pre ignition and detonation.Pistons can melt,engines can blow up, just like a grenade.
If you rolling road ,re map it for E10, that's ok, assuming your injectors will allow the increased fueling ,up to 10% or so?But,now it will run rich on E5!
So,called E10 compatible vehicles have a closed loop feedback mechanism ,for measuring how the engine is running,and add more or less fuel as required.They also adjust ignition timing ,again as required .Your car will Not do this .
Autocar have tested 2 compatible modern cars on E10, and both increased fuel consumption ,the average was 10%.So,factor that in and E5 ( or effectively E0,Esso Supreme 99+ unleaded) super unleaded no longer seems so expensive?
So,your immediate problem on using E10 is the engine will run weak.Ok,if you are just pootling about ,you might get away with it .
But,if you put your engine under higher load,it will get hot ,and induce pre ignition and detonation.Pistons can melt,engines can blow up, just like a grenade.
If you rolling road ,re map it for E10, that's ok, assuming your injectors will allow the increased fueling ,up to 10% or so?But,now it will run rich on E5!
So,called E10 compatible vehicles have a closed loop feedback mechanism ,for measuring how the engine is running,and add more or less fuel as required.They also adjust ignition timing ,again as required .Your car will Not do this .
Autocar have tested 2 compatible modern cars on E10, and both increased fuel consumption ,the average was 10%.So,factor that in and E5 ( or effectively E0,Esso Supreme 99+ unleaded) super unleaded no longer seems so expensive?
Edited by astonman on Thursday 19th August 16:58
Edited by astonman on Thursday 19th August 16:59
astonman said:
Remember,E10 has a significantly lower calorific value per unit volume than E5 or E5( with no ethanol,Esso Supreme 99+).
So,your immediate problem on using E10 is the engine will run weak.Ok,if you are just pootling about ,you might get away with it .
But,if you put your engine under higher load,it will get hot ,and induce pre ignition and detonation.Pistons can melt,engines can blow up, just like a grenade.
If you rolling road ,re map it for E10, that's ok, assuming your injectors will allow the increased fueling ,up to 10% or so?But,now it will run rich on E5!
So,called E10 compatible vehicles have a closed loop feedback mechanism ,for measuring how the engine is running,and add more or less fuel as required.They also adjust ignition timing ,again as required .Your car will Not do this .
Autocar have tested 2 compatible modern cars on E10, and both increased fuel consumption ,the average was 10%.So,factor that in and E5 ( or effectively E0,Esso Supreme 99+ unleaded) super unleaded no longer seems so expensive?
It's not significantly lower at all .. ethanol is about 35 percent lower, but only 10 percent of the fuel is ethanol .. 90 percent is still petrol .. So,your immediate problem on using E10 is the engine will run weak.Ok,if you are just pootling about ,you might get away with it .
But,if you put your engine under higher load,it will get hot ,and induce pre ignition and detonation.Pistons can melt,engines can blow up, just like a grenade.
If you rolling road ,re map it for E10, that's ok, assuming your injectors will allow the increased fueling ,up to 10% or so?But,now it will run rich on E5!
So,called E10 compatible vehicles have a closed loop feedback mechanism ,for measuring how the engine is running,and add more or less fuel as required.They also adjust ignition timing ,again as required .Your car will Not do this .
Autocar have tested 2 compatible modern cars on E10, and both increased fuel consumption ,the average was 10%.So,factor that in and E5 ( or effectively E0,Esso Supreme 99+ unleaded) super unleaded no longer seems so expensive?
Edited by astonman on Thursday 19th August 16:58
Edited by astonman on Thursday 19th August 16:59
ethanol is a detonation inhibitor not promoter.. the weakening effect is also only about 3 percent
autocar may have had an agenda, other studies in the states (where this stuff has been available for decades, and brazil) suggests 3-4 percent reduction in economy
your engine isn't suddenly going to become a grenade ..
As an example of the " a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", our "friend", says ethanol is a detonation reducer.
Well, that is true if the air / fuel ratio is correct or on the rich side.
However,if the mixture is weak,which it Will be when using E10,in an incompatible vehicle, it is a detonation propogator.
Having run , proper, seriously expensive cars on,petrol, methanol and nitromethane, I do know what I'm talking about.
Well, that is true if the air / fuel ratio is correct or on the rich side.
However,if the mixture is weak,which it Will be when using E10,in an incompatible vehicle, it is a detonation propogator.
Having run , proper, seriously expensive cars on,petrol, methanol and nitromethane, I do know what I'm talking about.
Edited by astonman on Thursday 19th August 22:09
So the answer to my musings is to spend the fuel pump money on decent engine management and a flex fuel sensor. If I'm doing that I might as well slap a turbo on the front of it too.
I really should just look at other cars and people watch rather than let my mind wander whilst filling up with petrol
I really should just look at other cars and people watch rather than let my mind wander whilst filling up with petrol
astonman said:
As an example of the " a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", our "friend", says ethanol is a detonation reducer.
Well, that is true if the air / fuel ratio is correct or on the rich side.
However,if the mixture is weak,which it Will be when using E10,in an incompatible vehicle, it is a detonation propogator.
Having run , proper, seriously expensive cars on,petrol, methanol and nitromethane, I do know what I'm talking about.
FFS they've been using this stuff in the states for decades .. grow up and stop your sensationalist codswallop. It's the blinking millenium bug all over again.Well, that is true if the air / fuel ratio is correct or on the rich side.
However,if the mixture is weak,which it Will be when using E10,in an incompatible vehicle, it is a detonation propogator.
Having run , proper, seriously expensive cars on,petrol, methanol and nitromethane, I do know what I'm talking about.
Edited by astonman on Thursday 19th August 22:09
https://www.millersoils.co.uk/what-is-e10-petrol-a...
it says ...
What it does
Ethanol increases the octane rating of petrol, this is key for resisting detonation
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/the-truth-about...
A little bit of reading from a country that's been using it for decades.
The only scientific evidence i can find about pinking is under specific conditions where a hot source has been used to deliberately provoke its onset (ie running glow plugs in test engines running ethanol blends to study that effect specifically.)
Take ethanol to its current extreme in its e85 form and this is what you can expect ..
http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/04/everything-you...
Edited by spitfire4v8 on Friday 20th August 07:50
astonman said:
As an example of the " a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", our "friend", says ethanol is a detonation reducer.
Well, that is true if the air / fuel ratio is correct or on the rich side.
However,if the mixture is weak,which it Will be when using E10,in an incompatible vehicle, it is a detonation propogator.
Having run , proper, seriously expensive cars on,petrol, methanol and nitromethane, I do know what I'm talking about.
We only have your word for it. How about updating your profile with some relevant details to back your track record ? Otherwise we just have another Penelope Stopit on our hands?Well, that is true if the air / fuel ratio is correct or on the rich side.
However,if the mixture is weak,which it Will be when using E10,in an incompatible vehicle, it is a detonation propogator.
Having run , proper, seriously expensive cars on,petrol, methanol and nitromethane, I do know what I'm talking about.
Edited by astonman on Thursday 19th August 22:09
Ethanol only increases octane under stoichiometric or richer mixtures.Thats the great advantage about alcohol based fuel,they continue to produce more power and greater margins against detonation in richer than stoichiometric ratios.Fuels with significant amounts of alcohol content are therefore easier to tune,as long as you keep it rich.
Weak alcohol mixtures a prone to detonation ,which goes against the grain of alcohol has a high octane rating,but I'm afraid it's true.If you want to guard against detonation in weak mixtures,you need to look to aromatics like , benzene,toluene and xylene .
All this American schpeel ,relates to vehicles that are compatible,with closed loop engine management.
If you want to research the basic characteristics of spark ignition fuels, then I recommend books by A.Graham Bell.
Both titles ,4 stroke performance tuning and the forced induction book will explain .
P.S. I know nothing about automotive electrics .
Weak alcohol mixtures a prone to detonation ,which goes against the grain of alcohol has a high octane rating,but I'm afraid it's true.If you want to guard against detonation in weak mixtures,you need to look to aromatics like , benzene,toluene and xylene .
All this American schpeel ,relates to vehicles that are compatible,with closed loop engine management.
If you want to research the basic characteristics of spark ignition fuels, then I recommend books by A.Graham Bell.
Both titles ,4 stroke performance tuning and the forced induction book will explain .
P.S. I know nothing about automotive electrics .
Edited by astonman on Friday 20th August 09:46
If you saw how crude the mixture control is on the 14CUX you would not be arguing about + / - a few percent either way. The engines seem to survive having a hammer to control the feedback loop and huge amounts of overshoot both rich and lean. The plot in yellow shows the mixture control against the TPS and Airflow inputs. The yellow dotted line is Lambda 1. Everyday road use is very unlikely to see high enough prolonged throttle openings and temperature to cause detonation damage if running a few percent lean. Of course at WOT, the ECU is open loop anyway so cant compensate for a leaner mixture, but as the fuel map stops metering the fuel at around 5400, and the engines volumetric efficiency drops above this point the mixture becomes too rich anyway. I think we can sleep easy in our beds on that front.
To give a little more perspective on E10.
If you were to take your Rover V8 engined car to Sainsbury's,through the 30 mph traffic then,I don't believe it will cause any basic harm ( ignoring the longer term solvent issues and hygroscopic nature of ethanol).
I don't know if the engine will run okish,or miss or pink a bit? It all depends on how close to stoichiometric your original set up is.
If,your engines a tad rich, it'll be fine?
However,under high load,like going up the autobahn at 130 mph for any extended period or even cruising for an extended period at 70 mph,it may all start to get hot.Heat,creates detonation and detonation creates heat! So,it can all go pear shaped very quickly.
Therefore,it's safer to avoid E10.But,if you feel lucky
fine.
If you were to take your Rover V8 engined car to Sainsbury's,through the 30 mph traffic then,I don't believe it will cause any basic harm ( ignoring the longer term solvent issues and hygroscopic nature of ethanol).
I don't know if the engine will run okish,or miss or pink a bit? It all depends on how close to stoichiometric your original set up is.
If,your engines a tad rich, it'll be fine?
However,under high load,like going up the autobahn at 130 mph for any extended period or even cruising for an extended period at 70 mph,it may all start to get hot.Heat,creates detonation and detonation creates heat! So,it can all go pear shaped very quickly.
Therefore,it's safer to avoid E10.But,if you feel lucky
fine.And the real perspective is this: there is no need to take the risk. It might be fine, but the small cost of using V Power/Esso Supreme etc which is still E5 or less is worth the peace of mind for the tiny overall additional cost in a TVR or any classic car that likely does a very small annual mileage.
Pagey430 said:
e5 e10 for holidays in France and Italy for several years running, at significant motorway speeds and high ambient temps for hours on end no problem at all.
honestly there are bigger things to think of/worry about than this
Yep too much scare mongering going on Inc the poster on here but agree with the positive comments on this thread from the usual educated PH's honestly there are bigger things to think of/worry about than this
nothing to add than this Edited by Zener on Friday 20th August 16:24
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