Solve HGV Driver shortage with Coach / Bus drivers?
Discussion
Admittedly I have a dog in the fight : I hold a D/D1 licence but not C1 as passed car licence post 1997 but :
Why don't the government allow D / D1 Licence holders - those that have passed a D test too drive what I would call class 2 HGV, i.e. the rigid non articulated lorries. ?
We are used to driving vehicles much longer and sometimes higher than a Warburtons bread wagon and we're used to cargo a lot more precious than sliced bread. We have CPC training, know the roads well and also have digital tacho cards and know how to use them.
I worked for a travel firm that went bust overnight due to Covid last year in May. There are thousands of coach drivers out of work at the moment as the tour industry disintegrated and is no sign of coming back yet.
Overnight you would have a supply of professional drivers and there need be no more talk of relaxing laws to let overseas drivers back in. Reduce the Unemployment figure and by extension the Universal Credit burden.
Interested to hear anyones thoughts on the above. I've to written to Grant Shapps and the shadow minister with no response.
Why don't the government allow D / D1 Licence holders - those that have passed a D test too drive what I would call class 2 HGV, i.e. the rigid non articulated lorries. ?
We are used to driving vehicles much longer and sometimes higher than a Warburtons bread wagon and we're used to cargo a lot more precious than sliced bread. We have CPC training, know the roads well and also have digital tacho cards and know how to use them.
I worked for a travel firm that went bust overnight due to Covid last year in May. There are thousands of coach drivers out of work at the moment as the tour industry disintegrated and is no sign of coming back yet.
Overnight you would have a supply of professional drivers and there need be no more talk of relaxing laws to let overseas drivers back in. Reduce the Unemployment figure and by extension the Universal Credit burden.
Interested to hear anyones thoughts on the above. I've to written to Grant Shapps and the shadow minister with no response.
When you treat drivers like s
t for years this is what happens. Agencies now offering £20-£30 an hour or more.
Companies that call their employees resources instead of colleagues and still trying to recruit drivers at £10 an hour. It’s a joke.
No one in the right mind would pay to learn to drive a 44ton hgv and do the continuous development to remain the the role and have the responsibility for £10 an hour and if they did want to work for that then they left because of brexit.
Running a family on £10 an hour when you’re not seeing the family due to hours worked is tough but working for £10 an hour gets easier when you’re living with 8 of your mates all doing the same.
fk them, they’re getting what they deserve.
t for years this is what happens. Agencies now offering £20-£30 an hour or more. Companies that call their employees resources instead of colleagues and still trying to recruit drivers at £10 an hour. It’s a joke.
No one in the right mind would pay to learn to drive a 44ton hgv and do the continuous development to remain the the role and have the responsibility for £10 an hour and if they did want to work for that then they left because of brexit.
Running a family on £10 an hour when you’re not seeing the family due to hours worked is tough but working for £10 an hour gets easier when you’re living with 8 of your mates all doing the same.
f
k them, they’re getting what they deserve. efcgriswold said:
When you treat drivers like st for years this is what happens. Agencies now offering £20-£30 an hour or more.
Companies that call their employees resources instead of colleagues and still trying to recruit drivers at £10 an hour. It’s a joke.
No one in the right mind would pay to learn to drive a 44ton hgv and do the continuous development to remain the the role and have the responsibility for £10 an hour and if they did want to work for that then they left because of brexit.
Running a family on £10 an hour when you’re not seeing the family due to hours worked is tough but working for £10 an hour gets easier when you’re living with 8 of your mates all doing the same.
fk them, they’re getting what they deserve.
And, I assume, paying Eastern Europe rates for driver training? I could be wrong.t for years this is what happens. Agencies now offering £20-£30 an hour or more. Companies that call their employees resources instead of colleagues and still trying to recruit drivers at £10 an hour. It’s a joke.
No one in the right mind would pay to learn to drive a 44ton hgv and do the continuous development to remain the the role and have the responsibility for £10 an hour and if they did want to work for that then they left because of brexit.
Running a family on £10 an hour when you’re not seeing the family due to hours worked is tough but working for £10 an hour gets easier when you’re living with 8 of your mates all doing the same.
f
k them, they’re getting what they deserve. I read somewhere that the business model for haulage companies due to the competitiveness is to only make a few quid on each HGV per day.
This is where the large fleet model comes in and provides the company (eg. Stobarts) with large profits. Especially when they have hundreds of trucks on the road.
But of course they only make those profits by paying HGV drivers the minimum they can get away with in order to stop them going to competitors. Guess the game has now changed in favour of the employee. No bad thing as the UK needs to become more self-sufficient and less reliant on foreign resources.
This is where the large fleet model comes in and provides the company (eg. Stobarts) with large profits. Especially when they have hundreds of trucks on the road.
But of course they only make those profits by paying HGV drivers the minimum they can get away with in order to stop them going to competitors. Guess the game has now changed in favour of the employee. No bad thing as the UK needs to become more self-sufficient and less reliant on foreign resources.
efcgriswold said:
When you treat drivers like st for years this is what happens. Agencies now offering £20-£30 an hour or more.
Companies that call their employees resources instead of colleagues and still trying to recruit drivers at £10 an hour. It’s a joke.
No one in the right mind would pay to learn to drive a 44ton hgv and do the continuous development to remain the the role and have the responsibility for £10 an hour and if they did want to work for that then they left because of brexit.
Running a family on £10 an hour when you’re not seeing the family due to hours worked is tough but working for £10 an hour gets easier when you’re living with 8 of your mates all doing the same.
fk them, they’re getting what they deserve.
Do people trust agencies to pay up though? I still think a lot of U.K. companies have the mindset that they actually begrudge the ‘shop floor’ getting paid. The stigma around white collar vs blue collar still exists. It’s pretty obvious what importation ot for years this is what happens. Agencies now offering £20-£30 an hour or more. Companies that call their employees resources instead of colleagues and still trying to recruit drivers at £10 an hour. It’s a joke.
No one in the right mind would pay to learn to drive a 44ton hgv and do the continuous development to remain the the role and have the responsibility for £10 an hour and if they did want to work for that then they left because of brexit.
Running a family on £10 an hour when you’re not seeing the family due to hours worked is tough but working for £10 an hour gets easier when you’re living with 8 of your mates all doing the same.
f
k them, they’re getting what they deserve. And get rid of the stupid CPC crap. That killed off a lot of part time bus drivers.
A 5 yearly "refresher" like the theory test that could be done on-line would be much better than CPC.
When I passed my PCV, one of the the first jobs I had was to drive a 12T bus full of children to a weekend camp. But I would not be allowed to drive a 12T smaller truck full of bricks. Crazy.
(I could now as I have my C2)
A 5 yearly "refresher" like the theory test that could be done on-line would be much better than CPC.
When I passed my PCV, one of the the first jobs I had was to drive a 12T bus full of children to a weekend camp. But I would not be allowed to drive a 12T smaller truck full of bricks. Crazy.
(I could now as I have my C2)
efcgriswold said:
When you treat drivers like st for years this is what happens. Agencies now offering £20-£30 an hour or more.
Companies that call their employees resources instead of colleagues and still trying to recruit drivers at £10 an hour. It’s a joke.
No one in the right mind would pay to learn to drive a 44ton hgv and do the continuous development to remain the the role and have the responsibility for £10 an hour and if they did want to work for that then they left because of brexit.
Running a family on £10 an hour when you’re not seeing the family due to hours worked is tough but working for £10 an hour gets easier when you’re living with 8 of your mates all doing the same.
fk them, they’re getting what they deserve.
I posted previously having watched ‘Pickford’ removal,company on tele, ‘Big Boss’. Nothing about the job that the Pickfords guys were doing had any appeal whatsoever. Lousy pay, lousy hours, t for years this is what happens. Agencies now offering £20-£30 an hour or more. Companies that call their employees resources instead of colleagues and still trying to recruit drivers at £10 an hour. It’s a joke.
No one in the right mind would pay to learn to drive a 44ton hgv and do the continuous development to remain the the role and have the responsibility for £10 an hour and if they did want to work for that then they left because of brexit.
Running a family on £10 an hour when you’re not seeing the family due to hours worked is tough but working for £10 an hour gets easier when you’re living with 8 of your mates all doing the same.
f
k them, they’re getting what they deserve. under valued by the bosses. The M.D. said he couldn’t find any new recruits for the business and they were wholly reliant on the guys that had worked for them for donkey years. The M.D. said he was embarrassed and ashamed of how ‘Pickfords’ treated its workers and vowed to put it right.
If that is any sort of an indication just how badly Companies treat employees, st not at all surprising that they cannot recruit young workers. Now most EU workers have packed the truth is laid bare for all to see.
I'll be doing my HGV license in the next couple of months, I'm being made redundant soon after 15 years in the office and fancy a change.
I spoke to a couple of drivers and the advice has generally been that they would never have recommended it a few years back but they're treated a lot better now and everything has improved as market forces have swung in favour of the drivers. I hope that's the case.
I spoke to a couple of drivers and the advice has generally been that they would never have recommended it a few years back but they're treated a lot better now and everything has improved as market forces have swung in favour of the drivers. I hope that's the case.
Its a very, very complicated situation IMHO (I am in the industry).
You have had the last 20 years of massive legislation changes making driving a profession and needing many qualifications to get onto sites or use specialist equipment like hiab or hook lift etc etc.
Back in the 70s, 80s, 90s guys could come out of the army having driven TM Bedfords for a few months and jump straight into an 8 wheeler and off they went.
Now its a very different story. A lot of the older guys resisted or even refused the CPC. I know a few. I think in the early days of the CPC it was a bit of a joke but I actually think now its gone online its a lot better and actually does deliver. I did mine during covid and it was great doing it online and I picked up a few things here and there and I have an Operator CPC.
As for wages etc, again its another very complicated situation. We are at the lower end of the scale in terms of wages in my industry. We deliver move very low value materials and as such the margins are pretty small. We also have a multidrop side to the business which has better margins but its highly competitive and very difficult to build volume sales.
There is a whole discussion on this topic in the Commercial Break section about it - where in the end I gave up posting because I got told, by someone that is happy to admit on here they drive for £200 a day cash in hand - they hoped I went bankrupt because I treat people like slaves (because of the wages I pay and the car I drive). Nice one. Which is a perfect example of the attitudes of people within the industry. They can only think in the here and now and like to make massive sweeping assumptions.
Anyway, as for the OPs question, its a legislation issue. You cant have every professional goods driver on the road having to undergo extensive training for the last 12 years or so only for the DVSA to turn round and say nah, its ok you dont need those safety critical training courses any more and giving out class 2 licences like they came out of a snap crackle and pop box.
They would just never be able to go back on that move. It would be about the same as saying you don't have to wear a seatbelt any more.
Personally I think something like that could work - but it would need training and a test - direct access type thing. The bigger issue at the moment is the DVLA there is no chance they would have the resources or time to come up with such a scheme as its taking them months to process provisional class 2 applications as it is.
You have had the last 20 years of massive legislation changes making driving a profession and needing many qualifications to get onto sites or use specialist equipment like hiab or hook lift etc etc.
Back in the 70s, 80s, 90s guys could come out of the army having driven TM Bedfords for a few months and jump straight into an 8 wheeler and off they went.
Now its a very different story. A lot of the older guys resisted or even refused the CPC. I know a few. I think in the early days of the CPC it was a bit of a joke but I actually think now its gone online its a lot better and actually does deliver. I did mine during covid and it was great doing it online and I picked up a few things here and there and I have an Operator CPC.
As for wages etc, again its another very complicated situation. We are at the lower end of the scale in terms of wages in my industry. We deliver move very low value materials and as such the margins are pretty small. We also have a multidrop side to the business which has better margins but its highly competitive and very difficult to build volume sales.
There is a whole discussion on this topic in the Commercial Break section about it - where in the end I gave up posting because I got told, by someone that is happy to admit on here they drive for £200 a day cash in hand - they hoped I went bankrupt because I treat people like slaves (because of the wages I pay and the car I drive). Nice one. Which is a perfect example of the attitudes of people within the industry. They can only think in the here and now and like to make massive sweeping assumptions.
Anyway, as for the OPs question, its a legislation issue. You cant have every professional goods driver on the road having to undergo extensive training for the last 12 years or so only for the DVSA to turn round and say nah, its ok you dont need those safety critical training courses any more and giving out class 2 licences like they came out of a snap crackle and pop box.
They would just never be able to go back on that move. It would be about the same as saying you don't have to wear a seatbelt any more.
Personally I think something like that could work - but it would need training and a test - direct access type thing. The bigger issue at the moment is the DVLA there is no chance they would have the resources or time to come up with such a scheme as its taking them months to process provisional class 2 applications as it is.
crankedup5 said:
efcgriswold said:
When you treat drivers like st for years this is what happens. Agencies now offering £20-£30 an hour or more.
Companies that call their employees resources instead of colleagues and still trying to recruit drivers at £10 an hour. It’s a joke.
No one in the right mind would pay to learn to drive a 44ton hgv and do the continuous development to remain the the role and have the responsibility for £10 an hour and if they did want to work for that then they left because of brexit.
Running a family on £10 an hour when you’re not seeing the family due to hours worked is tough but working for £10 an hour gets easier when you’re living with 8 of your mates all doing the same.
fk them, they’re getting what they deserve.
I posted previously having watched ‘Pickford’ removal,company on tele, ‘Big Boss’. Nothing about the job that the Pickfords guys were doing had any appeal whatsoever. Lousy pay, lousy hours, t for years this is what happens. Agencies now offering £20-£30 an hour or more. Companies that call their employees resources instead of colleagues and still trying to recruit drivers at £10 an hour. It’s a joke.
No one in the right mind would pay to learn to drive a 44ton hgv and do the continuous development to remain the the role and have the responsibility for £10 an hour and if they did want to work for that then they left because of brexit.
Running a family on £10 an hour when you’re not seeing the family due to hours worked is tough but working for £10 an hour gets easier when you’re living with 8 of your mates all doing the same.
f
k them, they’re getting what they deserve. under valued by the bosses. The M.D. said he couldn’t find any new recruits for the business and they were wholly reliant on the guys that had worked for them for donkey years. The M.D. said he was embarrassed and ashamed of how ‘Pickfords’ treated its workers and vowed to put it right.
If that is any sort of an indication just how badly Companies treat employees, st not at all surprising that they cannot recruit young workers. Now most EU workers have packed the truth is laid bare for all to see.
A lot of chickens seem to coming home to roost now and certain employers will have to rethink their approach to staff if they are to survive in any meaningful way.
GreatGranny said:
efcgriswold said:
fk them, they’re getting what they deserve.
Who are exactly?k them, they’re getting what they deserve. The haulage companies are short of drivers which directly impacts distribution of goods to the consumer (ie. you and me!)
If I can’t get a Nando’s or a McDonald’s milkshake while it adjusts then so be it.
It will find its level, they’re short of drivers because they’ve screwed the drivers for years, their attitude towards the drivers is shocking and that goes for owners to warehouses that refuse to let drivers use toilet facilities.
I probably sound abrupt with it but I’ve got mates in the business who hardly see their family, work hard and long hours and had to accept lower wages over the years.
valiant said:
crankedup5 said:
efcgriswold said:
When you treat drivers like st for years this is what happens. Agencies now offering £20-£30 an hour or more.
Companies that call their employees resources instead of colleagues and still trying to recruit drivers at £10 an hour. It’s a joke.
No one in the right mind would pay to learn to drive a 44ton hgv and do the continuous development to remain the the role and have the responsibility for £10 an hour and if they did want to work for that then they left because of brexit.
Running a family on £10 an hour when you’re not seeing the family due to hours worked is tough but working for £10 an hour gets easier when you’re living with 8 of your mates all doing the same.
fk them, they’re getting what they deserve.
I posted previously having watched ‘Pickford’ removal,company on tele, ‘Big Boss’. Nothing about the job that the Pickfords guys were doing had any appeal whatsoever. Lousy pay, lousy hours, t for years this is what happens. Agencies now offering £20-£30 an hour or more. Companies that call their employees resources instead of colleagues and still trying to recruit drivers at £10 an hour. It’s a joke.
No one in the right mind would pay to learn to drive a 44ton hgv and do the continuous development to remain the the role and have the responsibility for £10 an hour and if they did want to work for that then they left because of brexit.
Running a family on £10 an hour when you’re not seeing the family due to hours worked is tough but working for £10 an hour gets easier when you’re living with 8 of your mates all doing the same.
f
k them, they’re getting what they deserve. under valued by the bosses. The M.D. said he couldn’t find any new recruits for the business and they were wholly reliant on the guys that had worked for them for donkey years. The M.D. said he was embarrassed and ashamed of how ‘Pickfords’ treated its workers and vowed to put it right.
If that is any sort of an indication just how badly Companies treat employees, st not at all surprising that they cannot recruit young workers. Now most EU workers have packed the truth is laid bare for all to see.
A lot of chickens seem to coming home to roost now and certain employers will have to rethink their approach to staff if they are to survive in any meaningful way.
For far to long business have treated staff appallingly, as you mention that must now change or they will simply wither on the vine.
I've said this before on PH but I come from a family which in one way or another is heavily involved in HGV's.
I am one of the first males in the family not to take my Class 1 (or 2!) due to the low pay, crap conditions and long hours. If you paid a reasonable salary (£40k - £50k) for a reasonable week (not sleeping in a HGV all week for a start) then you would attract more people instantly.
The industry got to used to cheap foreign labour which has vanished now and they don't want to adjust to a UK workforce.
I am one of the first males in the family not to take my Class 1 (or 2!) due to the low pay, crap conditions and long hours. If you paid a reasonable salary (£40k - £50k) for a reasonable week (not sleeping in a HGV all week for a start) then you would attract more people instantly.
The industry got to used to cheap foreign labour which has vanished now and they don't want to adjust to a UK workforce.
Thanks Red Sir - and to everyone for their thoughts.
I'd like to pick up on the below though - You wouldnt be handing out class 2 licences willy nilly - it would be to trained professional drivers with large vehicle experience. Im fairly sure some of the CPC modules are shared as an additional point.
Anyway, as for the OPs question, its a legislation issue. You cant have every professional goods driver on the road having to undergo extensive training for the last 12 years or so only for the DVSA to turn round and say nah, its ok you dont need those safety critical training courses any more and giving out class 2 licences like they came out of a snap crackle and pop box.
They would just never be able to go back on that move. It would be about the same as saying you don't have to wear a seatbelt any more.
I'd like to pick up on the below though - You wouldnt be handing out class 2 licences willy nilly - it would be to trained professional drivers with large vehicle experience. Im fairly sure some of the CPC modules are shared as an additional point.
Anyway, as for the OPs question, its a legislation issue. You cant have every professional goods driver on the road having to undergo extensive training for the last 12 years or so only for the DVSA to turn round and say nah, its ok you dont need those safety critical training courses any more and giving out class 2 licences like they came out of a snap crackle and pop box.
They would just never be able to go back on that move. It would be about the same as saying you don't have to wear a seatbelt any more.
Rivenink said:
Isn't the issue primarily because the pay is awful and the job comes with a HGV load of crap to deal with beyond the driving?
I'm sure I saw somewhere that there is enough qualified licence holders; they've just got better jobs and feel no reason to go back.
There's a disparity between HGV licence holders and HGV license holders with the CPC qualification that was brought in about 12 years ago. You must have this to drive HGV / PSV. We had a bunch of coach drivers who just said s0d this for a lark and quit when that came in and I assume the (usually older) HGV drivers said the same.I'm sure I saw somewhere that there is enough qualified licence holders; they've just got better jobs and feel no reason to go back.
GroundZero said:
I read somewhere that the business model for haulage companies due to the competitiveness is to only make a few quid on each HGV per day.
This is where the large fleet model comes in and provides the company (eg. Stobarts) with large profits. Especially when they have hundreds of trucks on the road.
But of course they only make those profits by paying HGV drivers the minimum they can get away with in order to stop them going to competitors. Guess the game has now changed in favour of the employee. No bad thing as the UK needs to become more self-sufficient and less reliant on foreign resources.
Time to get the cloning machine out then, or do you have another solution to this?This is where the large fleet model comes in and provides the company (eg. Stobarts) with large profits. Especially when they have hundreds of trucks on the road.
But of course they only make those profits by paying HGV drivers the minimum they can get away with in order to stop them going to competitors. Guess the game has now changed in favour of the employee. No bad thing as the UK needs to become more self-sufficient and less reliant on foreign resources.
cronos said:
Thanks Red Sir - and to everyone for their thoughts.
I'd like to pick up on the below though - You wouldnt be handing out class 2 licences willy nilly - it would be to trained professional drivers with large vehicle experience. Im fairly sure some of the CPC modules are shared as an additional point.
Anyway, as for the OPs question, its a legislation issue. You cant have every professional goods driver on the road having to undergo extensive training for the last 12 years or so only for the DVSA to turn round and say nah, its ok you dont need those safety critical training courses any more and giving out class 2 licences like they came out of a snap crackle and pop box.
They would just never be able to go back on that move. It would be about the same as saying you don't have to wear a seatbelt any more.
It was just you said D / D1. I'd like to pick up on the below though - You wouldnt be handing out class 2 licences willy nilly - it would be to trained professional drivers with large vehicle experience. Im fairly sure some of the CPC modules are shared as an additional point.
Anyway, as for the OPs question, its a legislation issue. You cant have every professional goods driver on the road having to undergo extensive training for the last 12 years or so only for the DVSA to turn round and say nah, its ok you dont need those safety critical training courses any more and giving out class 2 licences like they came out of a snap crackle and pop box.
They would just never be able to go back on that move. It would be about the same as saying you don't have to wear a seatbelt any more.
D1 is max 7.5t. I would not want someone with a D1 (which is GFR for a lot of people over 41) to jump in a 32,000kg vehicle. Might as well just say anyone with (non GFR) C1 can now drive C.
I think the other big issue would be the bus companies would lose a lot of drivers. Then the public transport bosses would be up in arms, given that most bus companies have struggled to get new drivers on for the last 5-10 years as the vast majority of people just go down the goods route as its better money. Most bus companies will pay for your training and test etc. You wont find many goods firms that do that (they do still exist but not many).
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