993GT2 v 996GT2
Discussion
I've always had a grievance against Porsche badging the 996 GT2 as a GT2.As any enlightened Pistonheader will tell you, the GT2 class was a specific class of sportscar racers which competed in the FIA Le Mans and World series of races from the mid 90's.Porsche built the 993 GT2 to compete in those races.
In order to homologate the car they had to build under the rules numerous road versions.The road examples of which 12 were apparently built in RHD, followed the traditional painstaking Porsche race philosophy of all their extreme dedicated road/track versions ie 'for speed add lightness'.Accordingly the basic turbo 4 was stripped of every conceivable non race nicety and replaced with lightened race/track components.The basic 993 GT2 was built with beefed up gearbox, RS interior,no airbags, radio, electric windows, air con,sunroof,rear wiper, or interior door handles.Lightweight components included recaro bucket seats, thinner glass, aluminium doors (reputed to cost £10000 a pair!) aluminium bonnet, kevlar spoiler etc, and magnesium wheels.
As a result the road car weighed in at a svelte 1290kg, compared to the relatively lethargic 1440kg of the 996 gt2.
The basic powerplant produced 430bhp, although not many people know that the factory offered owners a 450 bhp upgrade for approx £3500 consisting principally of KKK 24 turbos in place of the standard KKK 16's.This still gives the car a comfortable power to weight ratio advantage over its young pretender successor.
The car was NOT available through your regular Porsche Approved Centre.As with the 959 before it (as well as the F40) the car was not 'Type Approved' for sale over here, and therefore could only be supplied direct to the customer who had to order from the factory pay in Deutsch Marks and believe it or not had to attend in person with Passport to collect said vehicle!
It was not built during a strong economic period either here or in Europe.In 1995 we were just putting the economic recession of the early 90's behind us.Repossessions were commonplace and the housing market had recently suffered its biggest collapse for decades.The 993 GT2 would cost between £120,000-£130000 depending on the Deutsch Mark/Pound exchange rate at the date of payment.Porsche was happy to sell a minimum for homologation purposes.Interestingly there were very few deep pockets beating a path to Porsche's door notwithstanding the formidable looks and performance of the car.
The 993 GT2 race version raced with distinction all over the world including Le Mans between 1995 and 2000.You can still see the odd one even today in some race series.
The 993 GT2,in my opinion, is the finest 911 ever built.
It captures the spirit of the pure 911 racer, is not far removed from its racing roots,is air cooled and looks 'the business'.
The 996 GT2 on the other hand ,capable and quick though it may be, does not conform to the purest 911 philosophy.It is neither a dedicated and focussed track car, nor a super sophisticated practical supercar.Amongst contemporary 911's surely the 996 GT3 is the former, and the 996 turbo ,particularly in X50 or 'S' guise, the latter.
The 996 GT2, albeit bereft of four wheel drive, is otherwise a thinly disguised 996 turbo with no race or track aspirations.It does not contain the hall marks of a true dedicated lightweight special version 911.Porsche was at pains to tell everybody that the 996 turbo /GT2 would never go racing and instead developed the 996 gt3 ;a splendid car which does not have the image and identity problems of its GT2 sibling.
I understand that the 996 GT2 has not been the commercial success hoped for by Porsche.This does not surprise me in the least.They have 'plagerised' the 'GT2'badge , which should be solely and exclusively reserved for the 993GT2.
History and indeed residuals are judging that for itself.
I would be interested to hear your comments!!
>> Edited by flamespitter on Friday 22 July 06:31
In order to homologate the car they had to build under the rules numerous road versions.The road examples of which 12 were apparently built in RHD, followed the traditional painstaking Porsche race philosophy of all their extreme dedicated road/track versions ie 'for speed add lightness'.Accordingly the basic turbo 4 was stripped of every conceivable non race nicety and replaced with lightened race/track components.The basic 993 GT2 was built with beefed up gearbox, RS interior,no airbags, radio, electric windows, air con,sunroof,rear wiper, or interior door handles.Lightweight components included recaro bucket seats, thinner glass, aluminium doors (reputed to cost £10000 a pair!) aluminium bonnet, kevlar spoiler etc, and magnesium wheels.
As a result the road car weighed in at a svelte 1290kg, compared to the relatively lethargic 1440kg of the 996 gt2.
The basic powerplant produced 430bhp, although not many people know that the factory offered owners a 450 bhp upgrade for approx £3500 consisting principally of KKK 24 turbos in place of the standard KKK 16's.This still gives the car a comfortable power to weight ratio advantage over its young pretender successor.
The car was NOT available through your regular Porsche Approved Centre.As with the 959 before it (as well as the F40) the car was not 'Type Approved' for sale over here, and therefore could only be supplied direct to the customer who had to order from the factory pay in Deutsch Marks and believe it or not had to attend in person with Passport to collect said vehicle!
It was not built during a strong economic period either here or in Europe.In 1995 we were just putting the economic recession of the early 90's behind us.Repossessions were commonplace and the housing market had recently suffered its biggest collapse for decades.The 993 GT2 would cost between £120,000-£130000 depending on the Deutsch Mark/Pound exchange rate at the date of payment.Porsche was happy to sell a minimum for homologation purposes.Interestingly there were very few deep pockets beating a path to Porsche's door notwithstanding the formidable looks and performance of the car.
The 993 GT2 race version raced with distinction all over the world including Le Mans between 1995 and 2000.You can still see the odd one even today in some race series.
The 993 GT2,in my opinion, is the finest 911 ever built.
It captures the spirit of the pure 911 racer, is not far removed from its racing roots,is air cooled and looks 'the business'.
The 996 GT2 on the other hand ,capable and quick though it may be, does not conform to the purest 911 philosophy.It is neither a dedicated and focussed track car, nor a super sophisticated practical supercar.Amongst contemporary 911's surely the 996 GT3 is the former, and the 996 turbo ,particularly in X50 or 'S' guise, the latter.
The 996 GT2, albeit bereft of four wheel drive, is otherwise a thinly disguised 996 turbo with no race or track aspirations.It does not contain the hall marks of a true dedicated lightweight special version 911.Porsche was at pains to tell everybody that the 996 turbo /GT2 would never go racing and instead developed the 996 gt3 ;a splendid car which does not have the image and identity problems of its GT2 sibling.
I understand that the 996 GT2 has not been the commercial success hoped for by Porsche.This does not surprise me in the least.They have 'plagerised' the 'GT2'badge , which should be solely and exclusively reserved for the 993GT2.
History and indeed residuals are judging that for itself.
I would be interested to hear your comments!!
>> Edited by flamespitter on Friday 22 July 06:31
flamethrower - very interesting comments, which I concur with. K24 car's were all lhd and there were 21, mine is one of these.
After owning a 996GT2 prior to my current 993GT2 I will give an owners perspective tomorrow. IMOM has made the same transition from 996 to 993 GT2 and will also be commenting.
Not sure if any others have made the same step, would be interested in their comments also.
After owning a 996GT2 prior to my current 993GT2 I will give an owners perspective tomorrow. IMOM has made the same transition from 996 to 993 GT2 and will also be commenting.
Not sure if any others have made the same step, would be interested in their comments also.
Hi RSR,
Your nickname gives away you leanings and loyalties and therefore your reverting to the 993 GT2 is no surprise.
It is a genuine regret that Porsche built so few 993 GT2's and therfore only a lucky few will ever drive or own this great car.It surely is the most distinctive looking road/track 911 ever built.I suppose the limited numbers explain why the 993 GT2 receives relatively little press or accolade even in Porsche circles compared to cars like the 2.7 RS ,993RS and GT3.
I await your objective comparison between your two cars.
Your nickname gives away you leanings and loyalties and therefore your reverting to the 993 GT2 is no surprise.
It is a genuine regret that Porsche built so few 993 GT2's and therfore only a lucky few will ever drive or own this great car.It surely is the most distinctive looking road/track 911 ever built.I suppose the limited numbers explain why the 993 GT2 receives relatively little press or accolade even in Porsche circles compared to cars like the 2.7 RS ,993RS and GT3.
I await your objective comparison between your two cars.
Looking forward to the replys!
Konrad nice to see you on here ,another proper gt2 nut! when are you going to let me and rsr/jc race your konrad car then!!!May be in the bill taylor race at brands on the bank holiday!!
So there are now 7 gt2 car owners on PH.
JC autocar ed said to say hi,he hopes to meet up with us all sometime,shame he can not make silverstone next week.We had a porsche centre bristol open night last night,had to display a few cars,his gt is well up together.Also he was drooling over the st,parked next to his gt2.
Konrad nice to see you on here ,another proper gt2 nut! when are you going to let me and rsr/jc race your konrad car then!!!May be in the bill taylor race at brands on the bank holiday!!
So there are now 7 gt2 car owners on PH.
JC autocar ed said to say hi,he hopes to meet up with us all sometime,shame he can not make silverstone next week.We had a porsche centre bristol open night last night,had to display a few cars,his gt is well up together.Also he was drooling over the st,parked next to his gt2.
FS - very articulate piece and very thought provoking.
I can tell you why i bought the 996 GT2 comfort spec over GT3 or any clubman spec car, maybe i am in a minority but here goes.
I loved my 993TT but at the track it was getting a bashing to keep up with Nobles. The car was kept absoluetly standard apart from corsa tyres and a slight fast road set up on camber and toe, it was also getting old and i was worried about maintenance.
I had a choice of GT2's one with bucket seats, harnesses and roll cage and one without.
When i do track days in the Porsche i really did not want anything that looked like a race car. My view is if you have a race car, go racing...
In my opinion the GT2 is perfect for me, it is less weigth than a turbo and has less of the stuff i never use, like rear wiper, sun roof.
The last thing i want on my car is any electronic gizmos ( i put up with ABS because i cannot find the off button and actually it only gets in the way when i am gathering myself after a spin)
I absoluetly love dealing with the turbo mid corner, theres nothing like it.
But when you look at it - it looks like a standard sports car.
Again - competition cars should be racing only, i like a clear distrinction and the more sutble the car is the better (apart from the rear wing which is absoluetly georgous)
Maybe Porsche were aiming the car at me but got the quantity wrong... I am delighted with mine (apart from headlights - the shape is just not right)
I can tell you why i bought the 996 GT2 comfort spec over GT3 or any clubman spec car, maybe i am in a minority but here goes.
I loved my 993TT but at the track it was getting a bashing to keep up with Nobles. The car was kept absoluetly standard apart from corsa tyres and a slight fast road set up on camber and toe, it was also getting old and i was worried about maintenance.
I had a choice of GT2's one with bucket seats, harnesses and roll cage and one without.
When i do track days in the Porsche i really did not want anything that looked like a race car. My view is if you have a race car, go racing...
In my opinion the GT2 is perfect for me, it is less weigth than a turbo and has less of the stuff i never use, like rear wiper, sun roof.
The last thing i want on my car is any electronic gizmos ( i put up with ABS because i cannot find the off button and actually it only gets in the way when i am gathering myself after a spin)
I absoluetly love dealing with the turbo mid corner, theres nothing like it.
But when you look at it - it looks like a standard sports car.
Again - competition cars should be racing only, i like a clear distrinction and the more sutble the car is the better (apart from the rear wing which is absoluetly georgous)
Maybe Porsche were aiming the car at me but got the quantity wrong... I am delighted with mine (apart from headlights - the shape is just not right)
Thanks for the speedy replies guys!
Clubsport, You are half right about the ali doors , they were available at £3500....each!So much so that most of the later batch of GT2'S built for Europe had steel doors unbeknown to their unsuspecting owners.Your comments please Herr Porsche!
Is aluminium so expensive?Apparently so.Anyway interesting bit of news ,(Burzell, wake up!) at LM this year I was lucky enough to get chatting to the GT3 RSR race teams and guess what? Those famous BBS gold race wheels are now produced in a special aluminium alloy instead of magnesium!they are even lighter than magnesium and are less prone to the cracking problems associated with magnesium.I will post this up elsewhere as many of the guys will be interested in this.
Burzell, what can I say other than...see you at the Nordschleiffe at the end of the month if you are interested?
Porsche4life I know where you are coming from.However believe me , there is still a world of difference between a dedicated racing car and a fast sports car.The 993 GT2 road car bears almost no mechanical resemblance whatsoever to the racer.I suppose it's the same comparing Scoobies and Evos with their full blown rally big brothers which cost over 10 times the price and are to all intents and purposes completely different cars. I look at it like this.If our favourite sports car designer can produce a car that looks great and makes us feel that we are driving a race car for the road which is closely related to the race version , then we get a bit of a buzz.The race teams may know otherwise , but in our minds we have the nearest thing to a race car , but with a number plate and a three year warranty.
Get the GT3 RS and you'll be glued to the Noble's tail pipes.
Clubsport, You are half right about the ali doors , they were available at £3500....each!So much so that most of the later batch of GT2'S built for Europe had steel doors unbeknown to their unsuspecting owners.Your comments please Herr Porsche!
Is aluminium so expensive?Apparently so.Anyway interesting bit of news ,(Burzell, wake up!) at LM this year I was lucky enough to get chatting to the GT3 RSR race teams and guess what? Those famous BBS gold race wheels are now produced in a special aluminium alloy instead of magnesium!they are even lighter than magnesium and are less prone to the cracking problems associated with magnesium.I will post this up elsewhere as many of the guys will be interested in this.
Burzell, what can I say other than...see you at the Nordschleiffe at the end of the month if you are interested?
Porsche4life I know where you are coming from.However believe me , there is still a world of difference between a dedicated racing car and a fast sports car.The 993 GT2 road car bears almost no mechanical resemblance whatsoever to the racer.I suppose it's the same comparing Scoobies and Evos with their full blown rally big brothers which cost over 10 times the price and are to all intents and purposes completely different cars. I look at it like this.If our favourite sports car designer can produce a car that looks great and makes us feel that we are driving a race car for the road which is closely related to the race version , then we get a bit of a buzz.The race teams may know otherwise , but in our minds we have the nearest thing to a race car , but with a number plate and a three year warranty.
Get the GT3 RS and you'll be glued to the Noble's tail pipes.
Burzel, spoke to CH the other day, said he needed to come and drive my GT2 on track to see what a properly set up one went like!
The following comments are mine, (and IMOM's) on the comparisons between the two 996GT2's we owned and the two 993GT2's we own. It's not designed to be an attack on those of you who own and love your 996GT2's, it's merely an indication of the differences between the two cars we have discussed over numerous beers/bottles of wine/jack daniels...
After owning a Black 996GT2 Clubsport, and now a 993GT2 (or more accurately a 911GT), I'm able to make what I feel are constructive comments with regard to the two cars.
For me, after three years in a 993rs, my first track outing in the 996GT2 was one of the most dissapointing of my life. Despite an optimised track set up, the hardest brake pads Porsche would provide and sticky tyres, on track it felt like a fish out of water compared to the delicacy and precision of the RS. It felt like every control surface has been wrapped in cotton wool. Dreadful brake fade, numb steering and overly soft suspension, a track weapon it was not. The power delivery that worked well on the road did'nt on the track, massive torque which left little at the top end of the rev range to bother with.
After moving the 996GT2 on, to I hasten to add it's current and very happy owner, I spent a joyful year with a 964rs Clubsport.
Then on the radar a rather keenly priced 993GT2 came along, I had concerns that the package would live up to my expectations, how wrong I was!
The 993GT2 is the most remarkable car I have driven. Despite having standard suspension and brakes, and running 540bhp it is totally usable at 10/10ths on track. You can wring it's neck and it say's 'come on, when you going to start trying', wheras the 996GT2 used to say 'slow down, I'm not built for this'.
Unless you have owned and driven these two cars back to back, it is impossible to imagine the gaping void between them. The 993GT2 really is the jewel in the 911 crown, it offers levels of driver feedback, communication and joy that thanks to the EU and it's nanny state will never be repeated.
The unfortunate thing is, as so few exist, and prices are going skyward, there will be very few people fortunate enough to experience this truly joyous device on the track were it was designed.
The following comments are mine, (and IMOM's) on the comparisons between the two 996GT2's we owned and the two 993GT2's we own. It's not designed to be an attack on those of you who own and love your 996GT2's, it's merely an indication of the differences between the two cars we have discussed over numerous beers/bottles of wine/jack daniels...
After owning a Black 996GT2 Clubsport, and now a 993GT2 (or more accurately a 911GT), I'm able to make what I feel are constructive comments with regard to the two cars.
For me, after three years in a 993rs, my first track outing in the 996GT2 was one of the most dissapointing of my life. Despite an optimised track set up, the hardest brake pads Porsche would provide and sticky tyres, on track it felt like a fish out of water compared to the delicacy and precision of the RS. It felt like every control surface has been wrapped in cotton wool. Dreadful brake fade, numb steering and overly soft suspension, a track weapon it was not. The power delivery that worked well on the road did'nt on the track, massive torque which left little at the top end of the rev range to bother with.
After moving the 996GT2 on, to I hasten to add it's current and very happy owner, I spent a joyful year with a 964rs Clubsport.
Then on the radar a rather keenly priced 993GT2 came along, I had concerns that the package would live up to my expectations, how wrong I was!
The 993GT2 is the most remarkable car I have driven. Despite having standard suspension and brakes, and running 540bhp it is totally usable at 10/10ths on track. You can wring it's neck and it say's 'come on, when you going to start trying', wheras the 996GT2 used to say 'slow down, I'm not built for this'.
Unless you have owned and driven these two cars back to back, it is impossible to imagine the gaping void between them. The 993GT2 really is the jewel in the 911 crown, it offers levels of driver feedback, communication and joy that thanks to the EU and it's nanny state will never be repeated.
The unfortunate thing is, as so few exist, and prices are going skyward, there will be very few people fortunate enough to experience this truly joyous device on the track were it was designed.
[quote=993rsr]Burzel, spoke to CH the other day, said he needed to come and drive my GT2 on track to see what a properly set up one went like!
From reading his [CH] article on his GT2 wud imagine his diff cud be underperforming............talked of pihrouetting !! Sounded like a man without LSD ?
Luv ur comments JC .............does take a little getting used to , i am still finding myself arriving in places much quicker than i expect to after 3 years!!
From reading his [CH] article on his GT2 wud imagine his diff cud be underperforming............talked of pihrouetting !! Sounded like a man without LSD ?
Luv ur comments JC .............does take a little getting used to , i am still finding myself arriving in places much quicker than i expect to after 3 years!!
Well articulated RSR, You are the business!
Can anyone argue with the current Porsche Club Champ racer in such a controlled test comparison?
And all this started just because the guy in the parts dept in Stuttgart put the wrong badge on the 996 GT2!If they had badged it as a Turbo S (which used to have a proud Porsche heritage until Porsche started getting its badges mixed up)then we wouldn't have had this problem.
Can anyone argue with the current Porsche Club Champ racer in such a controlled test comparison?
And all this started just because the guy in the parts dept in Stuttgart put the wrong badge on the 996 GT2!If they had badged it as a Turbo S (which used to have a proud Porsche heritage until Porsche started getting its badges mixed up)then we wouldn't have had this problem.
993rsr said:
The unfortunate thing is, as so few exist, and prices are going skyward, there will be very few people fortunate enough to experience this truly joyous device on the track were it was designed.
Which is the very reason why myself and MC are rebuilding AM's wrecked 993RSCS into a new RHD widebodied shell to make our own 993GT2 CS replica. For some reason I doubt that we will settle for less than 600bhp. OK, so it will not have the value of the genuine article, but it will definitely have all of its components, will perform the same and cost half as much to build. And before anyone asks, Speed Yellow.
Thats spooky Colin, sounds like you're describing my car. The car is a Speed Yellow 993 RS Clubsport converted to GT widebody with evo front bumper so it looks like a GT2 Clubsport.
I'm in 2 minds as to make it a 993 RSR replica with proper RSR flares and wings or leave the body and put a 500+ bhp turbo unit in the back and shelving the RS numbered engine for safe keeping.
As for the main thread I agree with flamespitter about the badging and relatvie difference behind the 2 cars discussed and was diasappointed with the badging of not just the 996 GT2 but also the 996 GT3. I thought the 993 GT2 was really a name it assumed because it raced in the GT2 class and its really called a 993 GT. A simialr thing with the proper 993 RSR's which have been raced in the GT3 class and in the states they do refer to them as 993 GT3's sometimes.
Maybe the badging was aimed at the US market when naming the 996 GT3's and GT2's.
I'm in 2 minds as to make it a 993 RSR replica with proper RSR flares and wings or leave the body and put a 500+ bhp turbo unit in the back and shelving the RS numbered engine for safe keeping.
As for the main thread I agree with flamespitter about the badging and relatvie difference behind the 2 cars discussed and was diasappointed with the badging of not just the 996 GT2 but also the 996 GT3. I thought the 993 GT2 was really a name it assumed because it raced in the GT2 class and its really called a 993 GT. A simialr thing with the proper 993 RSR's which have been raced in the GT3 class and in the states they do refer to them as 993 GT3's sometimes.
Maybe the badging was aimed at the US market when naming the 996 GT3's and GT2's.
paulmc said:
Thats spooky Colin, sounds like you're describing my car. The car is a Speed Yellow 993 RS Clubsport converted to GT widebody with evo front bumper so it looks like a GT2 Clubsport.
I'm in 2 minds as to make it a 993 RSR replica with proper RSR flares and wings or leave the body and put a 500+ bhp turbo unit in the back and shelving the RS numbered engine for safe keeping.
As for the main thread I agree with flamespitter about the badging and relatvie difference behind the 2 cars discussed and was diasappointed with the badging of not just the 996 GT2 but also the 996 GT3. I thought the 993 GT2 was really a name it assumed because it raced in the GT2 class and its really called a 993 GT. A simialr thing with the proper 993 RSR's which have been raced in the GT3 class and in the states they do refer to them as 993 GT3's sometimes.
Maybe the badging was aimed at the US market when naming the 996 GT3's and GT2's.
So the GT3 races in the GT2 Class, do you think it should have been called a GT2? i'm getting confused!
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