Constructive dismissal query
Discussion
I'll start off by saying I have no idea if this would even count as such, but would massively appreciate any advice on possible solutions 
Myself and my wife currently work for the public sector, and whilst I'm technically not allowed to say in what part let's just say it involves locking up bad guys and let you draw your own conclusions. We have two children, and work shifts. We've been employed for about three years (me just over, her near as dammit bang-on that).
Our standard shift pattern wasn't going to work for us when we had our second child due to childcare, and so we applied for Work Life Balance. This was accepted by HR, and we've been doing this happily for about 7 months now, so long past their 3 month probation period. Our shift patterns are either a 1700 or 1930 finish: In practice this means one of us can finish at 1700 and collect kids from childcare, and one stays on until 1930. Prior to this shift pattern we were 1800 finishes, which still allowed us to collect from childcare as they don't close until 1830.
Here's the catch: Work now want to implement a new shift profile that ONLY has 1930 finishes. This means that either there is no-one to look after the kids for an hour and a half, or we have the option of one of us working the morning (1230 finish) and the other working the afternoon shift. That sounds fine, but by doing that there is no way to make up the hours in our contract per week. The only catch here is that atm the final shift start and end times haven't been disclosed to us: For example, a current morning could be 0745-1230 and an afternoon shift 1330-1930, but then there's lunch covers and early starts and evening shifts to cover too...! The other option would be one of us working a few long days and then having an extra day off in the week to make up for it, but work already have a policy in place that prevents that.
So basically, if work change their shift patterns so much that we are either incapable of filling in the hours that we are contracted to, or alter them so much that we cannot have suitable childcare arrangements in place, therefore forcing one of us to resign from the job which we both love, is this constructive dismissal? Considering they know our circumstances and have already accepted a Work Life Balance from us.
TLDR: Work want to change our shift patterns so me and my wife cannot have childcare in place due to childcare being closed at the proposed finish times, is this allowed?
Myself and my wife currently work for the public sector, and whilst I'm technically not allowed to say in what part let's just say it involves locking up bad guys and let you draw your own conclusions. We have two children, and work shifts. We've been employed for about three years (me just over, her near as dammit bang-on that).
Our standard shift pattern wasn't going to work for us when we had our second child due to childcare, and so we applied for Work Life Balance. This was accepted by HR, and we've been doing this happily for about 7 months now, so long past their 3 month probation period. Our shift patterns are either a 1700 or 1930 finish: In practice this means one of us can finish at 1700 and collect kids from childcare, and one stays on until 1930. Prior to this shift pattern we were 1800 finishes, which still allowed us to collect from childcare as they don't close until 1830.
Here's the catch: Work now want to implement a new shift profile that ONLY has 1930 finishes. This means that either there is no-one to look after the kids for an hour and a half, or we have the option of one of us working the morning (1230 finish) and the other working the afternoon shift. That sounds fine, but by doing that there is no way to make up the hours in our contract per week. The only catch here is that atm the final shift start and end times haven't been disclosed to us: For example, a current morning could be 0745-1230 and an afternoon shift 1330-1930, but then there's lunch covers and early starts and evening shifts to cover too...! The other option would be one of us working a few long days and then having an extra day off in the week to make up for it, but work already have a policy in place that prevents that.
So basically, if work change their shift patterns so much that we are either incapable of filling in the hours that we are contracted to, or alter them so much that we cannot have suitable childcare arrangements in place, therefore forcing one of us to resign from the job which we both love, is this constructive dismissal? Considering they know our circumstances and have already accepted a Work Life Balance from us.
TLDR: Work want to change our shift patterns so me and my wife cannot have childcare in place due to childcare being closed at the proposed finish times, is this allowed?
The general principle is that an employer needs to provide options based on an employee's circumstances and if the employee cannot make any of those work, demonstrate why the employee's proposal cannot be accomodated. They also need to follow their own policies and procedures so you should check those out.
To claim constructive dismissal, you would first need to resign so it can be a high risk strategy unless you are certain that the employer is wrong.
To claim constructive dismissal, you would first need to resign so it can be a high risk strategy unless you are certain that the employer is wrong.
Find your local Fed Rep. They are normally very good at resolving Flexible working disputes.
Secondly, I may be wrong, but I’m sure Police officers can’t claim Constructive dismissal. I think it’s a technicality that you have to be an employee, Officers are Servants of the Crown and thus miss out on a few employee rights.
Secondly, I may be wrong, but I’m sure Police officers can’t claim Constructive dismissal. I think it’s a technicality that you have to be an employee, Officers are Servants of the Crown and thus miss out on a few employee rights.
LargeRed said:
the change of work pattern shifts must effect more than you and your partner ?
No way is this a Constructive Dismissal !
Sorry, not what you wanted to hear.
It does, there's quite a few people who it would effect too but that seems to have been glossed over. And in all honesty, I don't want it to be CD but more I was looking for something to push back at them on, as neither of us want to leave the job at all.No way is this a Constructive Dismissal !
Sorry, not what you wanted to hear.
With regards to POA, I am a member however they are also involved with our SLT in creating the new detail but seem unwilling to push this on our behalf, at a local level anyway. Essentially we've been told to "get something in place before this comes in", and that's a direct quote from SLT. Try as we might, without finding a local childminder to take the kids for 90mins (incurring a cost we could not afford at this point), it's not feasable.
I suspect I may have to look at their own Work Life Balance policies at a national level in detail to see what is there. Really appreciate all the replies so far, thank you all.
Yea not constructive dismissal as it’s not particularly aimed at you. It’s more likely to fall foul of some form of discrimination law? I’m far from an expert.
It’s a shame you don’t seem to have much confidence in the POA. Maybe a free hour or something with a local employment solicitor may help. In situations like these, sometimes a well worded, legally based letter can work wonders.
It’s a shame you don’t seem to have much confidence in the POA. Maybe a free hour or something with a local employment solicitor may help. In situations like these, sometimes a well worded, legally based letter can work wonders.
the local reps should be pushing what you want, as you are the union. not them. you should get a vote on the new profiles to accept them or not. contact ur area nec rep if you think the local reps aren't listening to the staff. I can't see any staff wanting to work till 1930 every day
what cat is the prison? I can't see why any jail wld re-profile now during the pandemic, you shld be operating an RMP and technically the command suite is still open so the 'profile' can be changed through the 'RMP' temporary to meet the needs of the prison.
at my cat b we have 120 staff am and pm and 45 on the ED. why does ur jail need all the staff until 1930? who's out till this time? if your on a shift pattern over 5 days you'll only be working till 1930 twice a week each so it would only be one day you'd need to find child care.
start by going back to ur local rep, they should be at least 5 of them.
but ultimatley it wldnt be classed as CD. if it does get imposed you will need to start with a grevience and work through the appeal process etc, then seek legal advice from the union solicitors etc. good idea to download and read all the polices are generally the SLT don't understand them and its easy to tie them in knots!
and once your savy in how it all works put ur name forward when the next reps space comes up!
what cat is the prison? I can't see why any jail wld re-profile now during the pandemic, you shld be operating an RMP and technically the command suite is still open so the 'profile' can be changed through the 'RMP' temporary to meet the needs of the prison.
at my cat b we have 120 staff am and pm and 45 on the ED. why does ur jail need all the staff until 1930? who's out till this time? if your on a shift pattern over 5 days you'll only be working till 1930 twice a week each so it would only be one day you'd need to find child care.
start by going back to ur local rep, they should be at least 5 of them.
but ultimatley it wldnt be classed as CD. if it does get imposed you will need to start with a grevience and work through the appeal process etc, then seek legal advice from the union solicitors etc. good idea to download and read all the polices are generally the SLT don't understand them and its easy to tie them in knots!
and once your savy in how it all works put ur name forward when the next reps space comes up!
Edited by kingswood on Saturday 11th September 09:29
Edited by kingswood on Saturday 11th September 09:31
Ekona, your superiors have already looked at the impact this will have on all the staff.
Also they know the Grievance Procedure better than you and any 'body' of unions, reps ..... you care to use.
The superiors did not do this blind ......... they are several leaps ahead of you ......it's their job !!
Also they know the Grievance Procedure better than you and any 'body' of unions, reps ..... you care to use.
The superiors did not do this blind ......... they are several leaps ahead of you ......it's their job !!
LargeRed said:
Ekona, your superiors have already looked at the impact this will have on all the staff.
Also they know the Grievance Procedure better than you and any 'body' of unions, reps ..... you care to use.
The superiors did not do this blind ......... they are several leaps ahead of you ......it's their job !!
I’m sorry but this isn’t always the case. Especially in the public sector. Also they know the Grievance Procedure better than you and any 'body' of unions, reps ..... you care to use.
The superiors did not do this blind ......... they are several leaps ahead of you ......it's their job !!
I’ve seen many changes knocked on the head, purely by quoting their own policies back at them.
Marvib said:
Did you ask for improved work life balance or more specifically requested a Flexible working arrangement?
If you applied for and were given a flexible working arrangement there are rules around them and they usually stand (unless changed by mutual consent) for 12 months by law.
We applied originally via their Working Life Balance policy, moving from our original generic shift patterns which weren't even close nor workable. Tbh they were fine with us doing that (others have done so) although the hours we asked for gave them no reason to say no to it. Others who took the piss a bit had theirs originally rejected, and had to re-submit. The 12 months thing is interesting, do you know where that comes from?If you applied for and were given a flexible working arrangement there are rules around them and they usually stand (unless changed by mutual consent) for 12 months by law.
It's a Cat C, and the reason they want to go back to 1930 finishes is to accomodate extra activities for prisoners in the evenings
A lot of good stuff here, which is massively appreciated. FWIW we have spoken to our reps, two of which are very good friends of ours so know where we're coming from, however the SLT are remaining firm in their no 1700 finishes approach for now. The trouble with attempting to vote down the detail when it's released is that they are going to move to 1700 finishes at the weekends instead, which I fear many people will be delighted with and happily vote yes to. Realistically if you have no childcare issues then I'd be happy with that as well, it's those of us that have very young children that it's going to make life impossible for.
I think ultimately at this point we'll have to wait for the final proposal to come out and see what we can do, if anything. I'll report back then. Thank you all
Do you do the early shifts, late shifts as in late patrol, and night shifts?
If you have a specific shift pattern tailored to you then they can’t just change it.
If they have been accommodating by allowing you to do more suitable finish times as a goodwill gesture then you could find that it can be changed in line for the needs of the business.
The reality is if everyone in the prison service applied for and was given hours to suit their individual needs the prison would never run smoothly.
The only way to solve your issue is to speak with the POA rep.
I think that over the years the issues relating to child care have risen to a point where it is hard to manage it fairly.
Remember that if you are paid a shift allowance then you will be required to work a certain number of red hours which are basically the ones outside of the core day.
If you have a specific shift pattern tailored to you then they can’t just change it.
If they have been accommodating by allowing you to do more suitable finish times as a goodwill gesture then you could find that it can be changed in line for the needs of the business.
The reality is if everyone in the prison service applied for and was given hours to suit their individual needs the prison would never run smoothly.
The only way to solve your issue is to speak with the POA rep.
I think that over the years the issues relating to child care have risen to a point where it is hard to manage it fairly.
Remember that if you are paid a shift allowance then you will be required to work a certain number of red hours which are basically the ones outside of the core day.
Edited by Dark Star on Saturday 11th September 15:27
Not sure if completely relevant but I think it might be...
I've (literally) just finished an equality and diversity training course for work. Sounds like possible sex discrimination (similar to the estate agent thread) and potentially also discrimination by association.
Public sector love this stuff. Worth looking at maybe.
I've (literally) just finished an equality and diversity training course for work. Sounds like possible sex discrimination (similar to the estate agent thread) and potentially also discrimination by association.
Public sector love this stuff. Worth looking at maybe.
still can't see the jail not having ANY 1700 finishes. as a cat C trainer it doesn't make sense.
on top of re-profiling when I assume you aren't even at Stage 1 yet makes less sense. im more inclined to think their changing the RMP to facilitate more domestic/purposeful activity on the ED.
speak to ur POA pal and ask to the RMP map. I can't see how you'll need the same amount of staff am, pm and ed. as a cat c trainer you'll be running workshops, escorts, healthcare, visits all during the core day and not between 1700-1930.
if it is a FULL re-profile, done properly with new profiled tasks etc, then there needs to be a 37/39/41 hr shift pattern written for it. and the usual acceptance was for there to be 2 shift patterns for each one that's then voted one (one with long weekends, long stretches and the other short weekends and mid week rest day).
so once you see the shift pattern for 37/39/41 you can see what the finish time are. what contact are you on 37/39/41?
when I was at a cat c trainer we finished at 1930 as 1730-1930 was association. that was before covid obviously.
a shift pattern then wld look like this:
sunday M
monday E
Tuesday R
weds L
Thursday A
Friday M
Saturday R
so you'd only work late twice a Week. back in the day for your red hours you do 2.4 ED's a week. we were paid 33% of our wage as red back then. they've now extended the normal working day to include some and pay 17% shift allowance
one thing to bear in mind is ive worked more profiles, shift start times and finish times than I care to remember in 20 years. this one won't last forever. but your childcare is just beginning, after nursey will come the school run etc. its not easy. ive had friends work opposite weekends for years and not see each other. most go part time and take the hit in pay. we don't do a 9-5 job but its a lot more family friendly than before.
the best line ive heard, an old school PO screaming at someone 'I employ you not you kids, get back to work'. we've come along way since then.
on top of re-profiling when I assume you aren't even at Stage 1 yet makes less sense. im more inclined to think their changing the RMP to facilitate more domestic/purposeful activity on the ED.
speak to ur POA pal and ask to the RMP map. I can't see how you'll need the same amount of staff am, pm and ed. as a cat c trainer you'll be running workshops, escorts, healthcare, visits all during the core day and not between 1700-1930.
if it is a FULL re-profile, done properly with new profiled tasks etc, then there needs to be a 37/39/41 hr shift pattern written for it. and the usual acceptance was for there to be 2 shift patterns for each one that's then voted one (one with long weekends, long stretches and the other short weekends and mid week rest day).
so once you see the shift pattern for 37/39/41 you can see what the finish time are. what contact are you on 37/39/41?
when I was at a cat c trainer we finished at 1930 as 1730-1930 was association. that was before covid obviously.
a shift pattern then wld look like this:
sunday M
monday E
Tuesday R
weds L
Thursday A
Friday M
Saturday R
so you'd only work late twice a Week. back in the day for your red hours you do 2.4 ED's a week. we were paid 33% of our wage as red back then. they've now extended the normal working day to include some and pay 17% shift allowance
one thing to bear in mind is ive worked more profiles, shift start times and finish times than I care to remember in 20 years. this one won't last forever. but your childcare is just beginning, after nursey will come the school run etc. its not easy. ive had friends work opposite weekends for years and not see each other. most go part time and take the hit in pay. we don't do a 9-5 job but its a lot more family friendly than before.
the best line ive heard, an old school PO screaming at someone 'I employ you not you kids, get back to work'. we've come along way since then.
I would suggest by starting with a request to see the public sector equality assessment. I can bet one hasn’t been done, but if it has that will explain the reasoning (or show it’s absence) on the impact of removing the 17:30 finish on childcare. But I bet they haven’t done one.
Apart from anything else, given the recruitment issues in the prison service they really should be doing everything they can to retain staff.
Apart from anything else, given the recruitment issues in the prison service they really should be doing everything they can to retain staff.
Edited by Electro1980 on Sunday 12th September 10:42
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff