Q to Legal Bods RE Employment Law
Discussion
Hi, could just do with a bit of advice here.
Some of you may have caught the I've been sacked post.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=141&h=&t=195050
Now, during the telephone conversation I was instructed that I would be fired and I clearly remember being told at the end of the month. I agreed to this.
Later I got wind of my employers intention to keep me on for a further three months in order to handover all the work I have been doing.
By email I disputed this indicating that from my recollection of the conversation the termination was to be at the end of the month.
My Contract with the employer is only a 12 Month dated 25th Jan2005. It states that the employer is free to terminate the contract at any time and charges to me under these circumstances should be determined by good faith, and are not to exceeds 5 days renumeration.
However if agreement cannot be made in 30 days of such a dispute being made then the settlement can (without further agreement to a longer time frame) go to arbitration.
Evidently the penny has dropped at his end regarding the fact that he is now sacking the only developer that can fulfill his exiting customer contracts and this afternoon I've received an email from the employer indicating that he didn't state when my contract would be terminated.
Obviously there is disagreement here. So if I raise a dispute with him regarding this, whilst the dispute is in place am I still bound to work for him?
I really do not want to do any more work, and do not wish to be bound for another 3 months.
best
Ex
Some of you may have caught the I've been sacked post.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=141&h=&t=195050
Now, during the telephone conversation I was instructed that I would be fired and I clearly remember being told at the end of the month. I agreed to this.
Later I got wind of my employers intention to keep me on for a further three months in order to handover all the work I have been doing.
By email I disputed this indicating that from my recollection of the conversation the termination was to be at the end of the month.
My Contract with the employer is only a 12 Month dated 25th Jan2005. It states that the employer is free to terminate the contract at any time and charges to me under these circumstances should be determined by good faith, and are not to exceeds 5 days renumeration.
However if agreement cannot be made in 30 days of such a dispute being made then the settlement can (without further agreement to a longer time frame) go to arbitration.
Evidently the penny has dropped at his end regarding the fact that he is now sacking the only developer that can fulfill his exiting customer contracts and this afternoon I've received an email from the employer indicating that he didn't state when my contract would be terminated.
Obviously there is disagreement here. So if I raise a dispute with him regarding this, whilst the dispute is in place am I still bound to work for him?
I really do not want to do any more work, and do not wish to be bound for another 3 months.
best
Ex
I don't know the legal position but if you REALLY don't want to work there yet they REALLY want you (and you've been fired and are therefore not working for them)... I'd raise my wage demand to the point where either;
a) They say "stuff that!!" or
b) You are deleriously happy and can take some time off etc after the three months.
i.e. screw them!
Best of luck.
a) They say "stuff that!!" or
b) You are deleriously happy and can take some time off etc after the three months.
i.e. screw them!
Best of luck.
Chim_Knee said:
I don't know the legal position but if you REALLY don't want to work there yet they REALLY want you (and you've been fired and are therefore not working for them)... I'd raise my wage demand to the point where either;
a) They say "stuff that!!" or
b) You are deleriously happy and can take some time off etc after the three months.
i.e. screw them!
Best of luck.
Surely if he has a contract, he's bound by the terms of that contract. There appears to be a get out clause from the employers perspective (but I'm not sure about the other way around).
The contract will probably say that termination must be specified in writing from either side.
If that's the case, you've not had the required notification of termination.
Also, if your contract is related to delivering a piece of work, then you can't really slack off for 3 months without breaching the contract.
OK - might need to clarify a few things here:
The company is a uk company and the contract states that it is bound by UK Company Law.
I however work from home, living in Ireland.
The contract just lists general responsibillities - typically stuff like "Provide software engineering skills releveant to the companies projects"
"Provide 24hr telephone support for the companies client installations"
etc.etc.
My point now is that, in the telephone converation he declared he was going to fire me. At the time I believe he said at the end of the month.
I've had three emails from him:
The first stated "I’m going to keep Adrian on for three months on condition he performs tasks he is set."
The second in response to me disputing his claim in the first email to keep me for three months - said "Read you contract"
The third now indicates that the fisrt email (I’m going to keep Adrian on for three months on condition he performs tasks he is set.) was only meant for the other employees in the company and was not meant to be seen by me.
This email goes on to state:
"Also, I didn’t actually say when you were fired."
This is the point I am disputing. I recall him stating that he was firing me at the end of the month.
From the other thread some people stated that if you're fired you are fired, so I'm not certain if this qualifies for instant dismissal, or whether I'm supposed to work to the end of the month.
Finally, I really need to know how to deal with "3 month" aspect.
I fully understand the need to get some professional help on this matter and am really loathed to have any further correspondnace with him in case I say some thing that might jeopordise my position.
If there are any PH Company Lawyers around, perhaps they could email me, I'm willing to pay their rate to get this sorted ASAP.
The company is based in London, and should any of this go to arbitration then that is where the hearings will be held.
Many thaks
Ex
The company is a uk company and the contract states that it is bound by UK Company Law.
I however work from home, living in Ireland.
The contract just lists general responsibillities - typically stuff like "Provide software engineering skills releveant to the companies projects"
"Provide 24hr telephone support for the companies client installations"
etc.etc.
My point now is that, in the telephone converation he declared he was going to fire me. At the time I believe he said at the end of the month.
I've had three emails from him:
The first stated "I’m going to keep Adrian on for three months on condition he performs tasks he is set."
The second in response to me disputing his claim in the first email to keep me for three months - said "Read you contract"
The third now indicates that the fisrt email (I’m going to keep Adrian on for three months on condition he performs tasks he is set.) was only meant for the other employees in the company and was not meant to be seen by me.
This email goes on to state:
"Also, I didn’t actually say when you were fired."
This is the point I am disputing. I recall him stating that he was firing me at the end of the month.
From the other thread some people stated that if you're fired you are fired, so I'm not certain if this qualifies for instant dismissal, or whether I'm supposed to work to the end of the month.
Finally, I really need to know how to deal with "3 month" aspect.
I fully understand the need to get some professional help on this matter and am really loathed to have any further correspondnace with him in case I say some thing that might jeopordise my position.
If there are any PH Company Lawyers around, perhaps they could email me, I'm willing to pay their rate to get this sorted ASAP.
The company is based in London, and should any of this go to arbitration then that is where the hearings will be held.
Many thaks
Ex
Can I clarify something here? Are you actually an employee of this company or are you a sub-contractor (whether that be a temp, a Sole Trader, contractor, whatever)?
The law will differ based on that answer. In other words, if you are not an employee you won't have any employee rights and will be bound solely by your contract. Where your contract is silent on key points then statutory / case law will apply I would imagine.
(However, I am not a lawyer and the above post is not necessarily correct in any way)
The law will differ based on that answer. In other words, if you are not an employee you won't have any employee rights and will be bound solely by your contract. Where your contract is silent on key points then statutory / case law will apply I would imagine.
(However, I am not a lawyer and the above post is not necessarily correct in any way)
JonRB said:
Can I clarify something here? Are you actually an employee of this company or are you a sub-contractor (whether that be a temp, a Sole Trader, contractor, whatever)?
The law will differ based on that answer. In other words, if you are not an employee you won't have any employee rights and will be bound solely by your contract. Where your contract is silent on key points then statutory / case law will apply I would imagine.
(However, I am not a lawyer and the above post is not necessarily correct in any way)
Good point Jon, thought I'd mentioned this, I am self employed and under fixed term contract.
So yes, there are areas not covered in the contract that I have that as you state I assume will be covered under statute.
best
Ex
ETA: Might be in need of some of your software at this rate
>> Edited by theexcession on Friday 22 July 14:49
Hmmm. Grey area here. It depends on the business relationship you have with the company as to how you proceed. A fixed-term contract can give some employment rights, but a true business-to-business contract (regardless of whether your own business is as a Sole Trader or a Limited Company) is solely governed by the contract itself.
The use of the word "fired" does seem to imply some form of employer-employee relationship though.
I'm afraid we're rapidly nearing the end of my knowledge on this subject, but hopefully other PHers with more specific (and possibly professional) knowledge will be along shortly.
The use of the word "fired" does seem to imply some form of employer-employee relationship though.
I'm afraid we're rapidly nearing the end of my knowledge on this subject, but hopefully other PHers with more specific (and possibly professional) knowledge will be along shortly.
If you are "Self Employed" then, by and large, you will not be subject to the general rules and regulations relating to salaried "employees". Also, not being resident in the UK, you would probably find that UK legislation will not have any jurisdiction over your treatment by the people you work for.
HOWEVER, there are a number of factors that could work in your favour.
You should have a contract with the company you work for. Therefore, any breach of the terms of the contract by your "employer" should allow you to obtain redress of some sort if you are willing to take them to court.
Secondly, althoough not a formal employee, it has been held on occasion in UK courts that individuals who are not normal "employees" of a business sometimes are entitled to some of the basic rights normally atributed to employees. Again, that argument could fall foul of the fact you are resident outside the UK and not subject to UK legislation . There is the European Court option of course.
I am asuming from what you said that you live and operate out of the Irish Republic and not Northern Ireland.
HOWEVER, there are a number of factors that could work in your favour.
You should have a contract with the company you work for. Therefore, any breach of the terms of the contract by your "employer" should allow you to obtain redress of some sort if you are willing to take them to court.
Secondly, althoough not a formal employee, it has been held on occasion in UK courts that individuals who are not normal "employees" of a business sometimes are entitled to some of the basic rights normally atributed to employees. Again, that argument could fall foul of the fact you are resident outside the UK and not subject to UK legislation . There is the European Court option of course.
I am asuming from what you said that you live and operate out of the Irish Republic and not Northern Ireland.
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