Are these terms enforcable?
Discussion
Good evening all,
First post here, long time reader though! Apologies if this is in the wrong section, I can't post in SP&L yet.
I'm currently trawling online for a motorhome for a family member, and have found a lovely example being sold online. It appears to be sold by "a broker" which appears to sell Motorhomes on behalf of private individuals (sale or return?).
However, upon reading the terms and conditions on the company's website I'm a bit dubious..
Some of the Ts & Cs state:
1.2 The Buyer should satisfy himself prior to sale as to the condition of the Motorhome and should exercise and rely on his own judgment as to whether the Motorhome accords with any description. The Motorhome is sold on an "as seen as is" basis and no warranty or representation is made by the Broker as to the condition of the Motorhome or as to whether the Motorhome accords with any description. All conditions and other terms relating to the Motorhome (whether express or implied by statue or common law) are excluded to the fullest extent permitted by law.
6.1 Nothing in these Terms shall limit or exclude our liability for any matter in respect of which it would be unlawful for us to exclude or restrict liability.
6.3 The terms implied by sections 13 to 15 of the SOGA 1979, the terms implied by sections 3 to 5 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 and the terms implied by sections 9 and 10 of the CRA 2015 are, to the fullest extent permitted by law, excluded from these Terms.
Now, to me this reads that it is a "private sale" and there would be no comeback against the broker if the vehicle was mis-described, faulty etc. Despite the fact that on the advert, they claim that all their vehicles are HPI checked and the company acts as an authority with trading standards to ensure buyers receive a better quality of service!
Am I reading these Ts & Cs wrong, or am I right in my interpretation of them? Thanks in advance and apologies if I've broken any forum rules.
First post here, long time reader though! Apologies if this is in the wrong section, I can't post in SP&L yet.
I'm currently trawling online for a motorhome for a family member, and have found a lovely example being sold online. It appears to be sold by "a broker" which appears to sell Motorhomes on behalf of private individuals (sale or return?).
However, upon reading the terms and conditions on the company's website I'm a bit dubious..
Some of the Ts & Cs state:
1.2 The Buyer should satisfy himself prior to sale as to the condition of the Motorhome and should exercise and rely on his own judgment as to whether the Motorhome accords with any description. The Motorhome is sold on an "as seen as is" basis and no warranty or representation is made by the Broker as to the condition of the Motorhome or as to whether the Motorhome accords with any description. All conditions and other terms relating to the Motorhome (whether express or implied by statue or common law) are excluded to the fullest extent permitted by law.
6.1 Nothing in these Terms shall limit or exclude our liability for any matter in respect of which it would be unlawful for us to exclude or restrict liability.
6.3 The terms implied by sections 13 to 15 of the SOGA 1979, the terms implied by sections 3 to 5 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 and the terms implied by sections 9 and 10 of the CRA 2015 are, to the fullest extent permitted by law, excluded from these Terms.
Now, to me this reads that it is a "private sale" and there would be no comeback against the broker if the vehicle was mis-described, faulty etc. Despite the fact that on the advert, they claim that all their vehicles are HPI checked and the company acts as an authority with trading standards to ensure buyers receive a better quality of service!
Am I reading these Ts & Cs wrong, or am I right in my interpretation of them? Thanks in advance and apologies if I've broken any forum rules.
The answer is “maybe, maybe not”.
They’re trying to exclude everything they can. But then they’re qualifying their claimed exclusions “to the extent permitted by law”.
In other words, if push comes to shove and they aren’t allowed to rely on that exclusion (ie by decision of a coauthor) they don’t want the whole contract to be voided as a result of that one step to far.
But they would simply say to you: “we’ve excluded it, on your bike” and you would have to prove the exclusion was not enforceable.
They’re trying to exclude everything they can. But then they’re qualifying their claimed exclusions “to the extent permitted by law”.
In other words, if push comes to shove and they aren’t allowed to rely on that exclusion (ie by decision of a coauthor) they don’t want the whole contract to be voided as a result of that one step to far.
But they would simply say to you: “we’ve excluded it, on your bike” and you would have to prove the exclusion was not enforceable.
Thank you for your reply.
Your reply jogged my memory about the CRA 2015 covering unfair contract terms and in particular:
"A term is unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights and obligations under the contract to the detriment of the consumer."
Thinking of it now, you're right in that they're trying to exclude things but would fall back on "to the extent permitted by law".
It's a lovely example of a motorhome, and is likely to be worth the risk given that if any major issues became apparent, quoting the above part of the CRA 2015 would hopefully have some traction!
Sadly, I've had to use the CRA several times in the last few years.
Your reply jogged my memory about the CRA 2015 covering unfair contract terms and in particular:
"A term is unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights and obligations under the contract to the detriment of the consumer."
Thinking of it now, you're right in that they're trying to exclude things but would fall back on "to the extent permitted by law".
It's a lovely example of a motorhome, and is likely to be worth the risk given that if any major issues became apparent, quoting the above part of the CRA 2015 would hopefully have some traction!
Sadly, I've had to use the CRA several times in the last few years.
The question will be what the broker is offering. If he is merely introducing buyers and sellers and you are going to the sellers home to view and buy, then sure the broker isn't involved.
But if he is doing a sale or return and actually selling it to you from his site and where you pay him directly, then probably covered as a trade seller?
Tread carefully and get the vehicle inspected perhaps.
But if he is doing a sale or return and actually selling it to you from his site and where you pay him directly, then probably covered as a trade seller?
Tread carefully and get the vehicle inspected perhaps.
For this, I'd definitely recommend,
a dealer
local
with workshop facilities
Bearing in mind you're buying a used van with a caravan on the back, the opportunities for problems are many and varied,
all the van body and mechanics
240v systems
12v systems
Heating
Plumbing, water heating, water pumps
Drainage
Refrigeration
Air conditioning
Coachwork (lots of joints and sealing to fail)
So unless you know your stuff in a whole host of areas, you need some sort of warranty.
a dealer
local
with workshop facilities
Bearing in mind you're buying a used van with a caravan on the back, the opportunities for problems are many and varied,
all the van body and mechanics
240v systems
12v systems
Heating
Plumbing, water heating, water pumps
Drainage
Refrigeration
Air conditioning
Coachwork (lots of joints and sealing to fail)
So unless you know your stuff in a whole host of areas, you need some sort of warranty.
hyphen said:
The question will be what the broker is offering. If he is merely introducing buyers and sellers and you are going to the sellers home to view and buy, then sure the broker isn't involved.
But if he is doing a sale or return and actually selling it to you from his site and where you pay him directly, then probably covered as a trade seller?
Tread carefully and get the vehicle inspected perhaps.
You raise a good point. From what I've found, if we were to go and view we would be viewing at the brokers premises, and dealing direct with the broker who then passes any price offers into the seller for consideration.But if he is doing a sale or return and actually selling it to you from his site and where you pay him directly, then probably covered as a trade seller?
Tread carefully and get the vehicle inspected perhaps.
Another quick look digs this comment up:
"Dealer benefits without the dealer prices. We offer all of the benefits a dealer does, such as part-exchange, finance, insurance and warranty as an optional extra, but our prices are typically lower."
Now the motorhome we have seen is advertised with a comprehensive 6 month motorhome warranty, so (depending on what it excludes) I'd hope any major issues would be covered under that.
It's a difficult one because it's the nicest motorhome we've found, with the best history for the price!
But thank you all for your comments. We will weigh it up and do what we feel is best
Nothing to do with this thread – but the restricted access to SP&L should only be for the first two weeks after setting up your profile, so you should be all clear to post in there. I've toggled this off and on again in your account just in case you were being refused access, hope that has fixed it for you.
Wacky Racer said:
Don't forget to check for damp with a meter.
This 100%. if you are going to do one thing buy a cheap damp meter from B&Q and test the inside. My parent's bought a brand new camper van from Swift back in 2007 and it suffered terrible damp problems and eventually went back to the factory to be "fixed"Well surprise, surprise it was never fixed properly and a few years on the only way to repair it was to effectively strip out the entire van. In the end my parents sold it to a company that sells camper vans who looked at it for 30 seconds (it had done about 5000 miles), didn't test it for damp, handed over £20K and drove it away.
I suspect the person who bought it had nothing but issues. Strangely enough that van is still probably worth similar money 10 years on.
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