997 - market?

[CarDoodle]

Hi all - I’m currently hunting down a 997. I’ve been in and out of the market for a few years so I’m trying to get a handle on current price ranges.

I know there are some people who keep spreadsheets for these sorts of things - does anyone have any insight in to the going/asking rates?

It has to be a 997 and a either a 2 or 2S. I’m a believer in bore score so keen on understanding the prices of regular .1’s, rebuilt .1’s and .2’s. Happy to take the risk if priced right.

Looking on Collecting Cars it seems a reasonable .1 is around £25-26k, a .2 from around 34k (seems low?) but no data on a rebuilt .1.

[ATM]

You can just nibble your way into a rebuilt .1 for 30k. That seems to be the sweet spot. I know this is a 4 but you get the idea. If you are looking for a rebuilt .1 then the question becomes who rebuilt it, when and how. Anyone heard of Project nine engineering?

£27,750.00

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234178374271

[BillyB]

I love that interior

[ATM]

BillyB said:

I love that interior

Agreed

Not seen one like it before. Its been hovering in my watch list now for a few days. I think I prefer having no sport chrono clock too.

[AND7 F]

Not sure if it helps but I sold my 05 plate manual coupe 2S with full £15k rebuild by Porsche under warranty for £29k 2 years ago.. I imagine it would be worth around the same today

[rootsandculture]

If you haven’t already, I’d drive both and see which you prefer.

I did and preferred the .1, feeling that all the things that make it a great generation of 911 are more pronounced in the .1 than the .2. (Contrary views are of course extremely widely available).

Either way you’re in for a treat… that rare thing of a car that is both a joy on a B road and rewarding on a track.

[ATM]

rootsandculture said:

If you haven’t already, I’d drive both and see which you prefer.

I did and preferred the .1, feeling that all the things that make it a great generation of 911 are more pronounced in the .1 than the .2. (Contrary views are of course extremely widely available).

Either way you’re in for a treat… that rare thing of a car that is both a joy on a B road and rewarding on a track.

Genuinely interested, how do they differ?

Can you put your finger on it or is it a general thing?

I drive an early 996 and my mate a gen 2 version. Mine does buzz and hum a bit more than his but it's got stiffer suspension and bushes and roll bars and all sorts so I assume it is this that makes the difference. I guess there could be some Voodoo related to sound proofing or chassis flex but that must be subtle.

The brakes on my 981 however feel like stirring porridge. And don't get me started on the steering.

[Tommie38]

It used to be the case that I would not have looked at a 997.1 for fear of the need to rebuild. Because of posts on here that meant Hartech 997.1 or 997.2.
I think miley 997.2 S manuals were high 20s at one point.

Now that the 997.2 prices have jumped so much, the 997.1 is actually starting to look like much more sense. Buy it and if you have to, pay for the rebuild.

I’ve noticed Portiacraft stating in some adverts and on their site that they will do a fixed price rebuild for people that buy a car. Last ad was, I think £4k. What are thoughts on that? Assuming one bank only, who is actually doing the work?

[ATM]

Tommie38 said:

It used to be the case that I would not have looked at a 997.1 for fear of the need to rebuild. Because of posts on here that meant Hartech 997.1 or 997.2.
I think miley 997.2 S manuals were high 20s at one point.

Now that the 997.2 prices have jumped so much, the 997.1 is actually starting to look like much more sense. Buy it and if you have to, pay for the rebuild.

I’ve noticed Portiacraft stating in some adverts and on their site that they will do a fixed price rebuild for people that buy a car. Last ad was, I think £4k. What are thoughts on that? Assuming one bank only, who is actually doing the work?

Once you dive into the details of a Hartech build you start thinking about what new liners are made of, how they expand based on heat, how they wear, how the pistons used interact with the liner, how they are secured in the block and so on and so on....

The engine in my 966 was rebuilt by the PO at home in his shed and I assumed it would not last but so far so good. It didn't need piston or liner work as it just had a cracked head casing. I think just taking one of these engines apart and putting it back together will cost you a few hundred in gaskets alone.

In my view the cheap rebuilds are for those looking for a quick fix before they then quickly part ex or sell their car on to some poor unfortunate. You may get lucky with say an IMS failure that can be rebuilt without working on the cylinders but if it's been scoring then it needs serious remedial surgery.

Cmoose used to comment a lot about Hartech but all his comments are now deleted. I am pretty sure I remember reading one comment that more of the engines arriving at Hartech have had a previous cheapo repair than not.

[OPOGTS]

ATM said:

rootsandculture said:

If you haven’t already, I’d drive both and see which you prefer.

I did and preferred the .1, feeling that all the things that make it a great generation of 911 are more pronounced in the .1 than the .2. (Contrary views are of course extremely widely available).

Either way you’re in for a treat… that rare thing of a car that is both a joy on a B road and rewarding on a track.

Genuinely interested, how do they differ?

Can you put your finger on it or is it a general thing?

I drive an early 996 and my mate a gen 2 version. Mine does buzz and hum a bit more than his but it's got stiffer suspension and bushes and roll bars and all sorts so I assume it is this that makes the difference. I guess there could be some Voodoo related to sound proofing or chassis flex but that must be subtle.

The brakes on my 981 however feel like stirring porridge. And don't get me started on the steering.

Over 10 years ago I was running a gen 1 C2S and did the Porsche experience centre at silverstone in a gen 2 C2S.

I preferred the gen 1. Had a bit more of a direct old school feel to it, the gen2 was a bit more polished and lost a little bit of the connection and feel.

Prob not much in it to be fair and the gen2 interior was certainly smarter !

[Slippydiff]

ATM said:

BillyB said:

I love that interior

Agreed

Not seen one like it before. Its been hovering in my watch list now for a few days. I think I prefer having no sport chrono clock too.

Finally, a Porsche interior that looks tasteful. That's stunning, so best save the image and present it to your OPC when you ask for something to make your next car's interior a bit less dull (without going overboard).

Here's my daily smoker :







Proof you don't need to cover every last square inch of every surface in a brighter hue of leather to lift things.

[rootsandculture]

ATM said:

rootsandculture said:

If you haven’t already, I’d drive both and see which you prefer.

I did and preferred the .1, feeling that all the things that make it a great generation of 911 are more pronounced in the .1 than the .2. (Contrary views are of course extremely widely available).

Either way you’re in for a treat… that rare thing of a car that is both a joy on a B road and rewarding on a track.

Genuinely interested, how do they differ?

Can you put your finger on it or is it a general thing?

I drive an early 996 and my mate a gen 2 version. Mine does buzz and hum a bit more than his but it's got stiffer suspension and bushes and roll bars and all sorts so I assume it is this that makes the difference. I guess there could be some Voodoo related to sound proofing or chassis flex but that must be subtle.

The brakes on my 981 however feel like stirring porridge. And don't get me started on the steering.

I think the tone and character of the engine is the most immediate difference and for me that is significant. Also the gearbox wants more precision from you than the .2 although that may be anecdotal. Seem to remember reading that 3rd gear is shorter in the .1 but I don’t know for sure.

On those 911 characteristics - I think there’s a clearer sense of where the weight is (and isn’t) in the earlier car - the infamous bobbing nose is a bit lighter and with a little more texture in the steering. Whilst they both stick like limpets the .1 gave the impression it was more willing to move around underneath you on the way out of a corner.

Much of this is as you say probably voodoo, but isn’t voodoo what we’re really looking for in 20 year old 911s?

[ATM]

This one has only 49500 miles and it still needed a rebuild. It says full Hartech but it could still be only one bank.

£29950
C2S
49500 miles

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109016...

[MrVert]

That….looks rather nice…doubt that’ll hang around too long.

[ATM]

Two X51 cars on Autotrader but neither mention rebuild



Very interesting spec on this first one but no pics for either

£40,925

2008 (57 reg)

997 Carrera 2S

Sport suspension

LSD

PCCB

FACTORY OPTION CODE #09991 PORSCHE EXCLUSIVE PROGRAMME

DARK OLIVE GREEN METALLIC

TWO TONE NATURAL BLACK MAIN HIDE AND NATURAL STONE SECONDARY

Sun Visors in Leather

Inner Sill Finishers in Leather

Interior Light Surround in Leather

Rooflining in Leather

Steering Column Casing in Leather

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109307...



Second one just mentions some carbon bits

£42,950

2006 (06 reg)

997.1 Carrera 4S

Speed Yellow with Black

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109307...

[pcrawf]

ATM said:

Two X51 cars on Autotrader but neither mention rebuild

WFT!!

I just looked at their website - it's full of very boggo gen. 1s (a few with some fancy leather etc.) at between 30 and 50K. Despite them being just up the road from me I'd never heard of them before now.

They have a big stock of cars, but even with "the bubble", the asking prices are just extraordinary.

And some of the descriptions are a little over-egged. Cobalt blue a PTS colour on the 997? I don't think so...

[Mr E]

I’m vaguely considering replacing the Elise with a 997.

Prices are nuts for both. I do wonder if I should sell the elise now, and sit on the cash and wait for a correction. I accept I may be waiting a long time.

[CarDoodle]

Mr E said:

I’m vaguely considering replacing the Elise with a 997.

Prices are nuts for both. I do wonder if I should sell the elise now, and sit on the cash and wait for a correction. I accept I may be waiting a long time.

I am in a similar position (not an Elise though) - I guess ‘cost to change’ probably not too different at least even if absolute values have crept upwards.

How much was a good rebuilt / Hartech car a couple of years ago, does anyone remember? Around £30k like the one linked above doesn’t seem too much higher than before from memory? When I looked in to these before I thought we had looser examples around £20k, good ones £25k, rebuilt at £30k then .2’s from 35k+.

If that’s right then looks like we have had the bottom of the market move up to 25k, middle pretty static then the .2’s moving up quite a lot.

Agree that the two X51’s linked above (and all that dealers stock) look very high price wise but I admit I did not dig in to the adverts/provenance of the cars in any detail so may be justified.

[pcrawf]

CarDoodle said:

How much was a good rebuilt / Hartech car a couple of years ago, does anyone remember? Around £30k like the one linked above doesn’t seem too much higher than before from memory? When I looked in to these before I thought we had looser examples around £20k, good ones £25k, rebuilt at £30k then .2’s from 35k+.

My 2007 midnight blue C2S had 36K miles on it when it needed a rebuild (I'm going from the documentation here - this predates my ownership). The previous owner to me then bought it from a dealer, who had got Hartech to do the (full) rebuild, and the car was then sold for 28.5K. This was Aug 2019.

Maybe there was a discount for the sunroof and rear wiper, but that seems like good value. There's just no way I would even consider a gen1 without a sorted engine for the same price as a gen 2. That's just nuts.

[BillyB]

Mr E said:

I’m vaguely considering replacing the Elise with a 997.

Prices are nuts for both. I do wonder if I should sell the elise now, and sit on the cash and wait for a correction. I accept I may be waiting a long time.

I don't think trying to be too clever, judging the top of the market, is worth it tbh. Fun cars are supposed to be fun. Not having a car isn't fun.

As much as I love a 997, it is very different to your Elise. I'd make a 997 ticks your boxes first.