UK Employment Lawyer

[theexcession]

Hi, appologies for cross posting, I'd asked in P&P but it's dropped down the list so quick I'm posting here too.

I need a bit of advice regarding Employment Law wrt Fixed Term Contracts.

I've had a bit of a to-do with my boss which involved him fininshing a telephone conversation declaring that he was firing me.

No great problem as I see it as geting out of a job I was not enjoying. However he is now trying to hold me to work out the contract - it ends in 3 months - by now stating that he didn't say when he was firing me.

I could do with a bit of info on what my rights are and what I should do next.

I've reviewed the contract and whilst it says that he is free to terminate the contract at any time it doesn't say anything about my rights to terminate - I'm guessing there must be some statue laws covering what I can and can't do.

I'm quite happy to pay for anything beyond a bit of friendly advice so I'm just wondering if there is some one out there qualified in this field.

best
Ex

[speedy_thrills]

Just be completely incompetent for the next 3 months then, he is bound to fire you sooner or later.

My last contract allowed me to terminate at 4 weeks. There was some clauses that allowed 2 weeks however?!!

[nonegreen]

Not qualified but I have fired loads of people. If he fired you then insisted you return, you simply go see ACAS and claim constructive dismissal. If this is on the grounds of sex race or dissability then the compo is now unlimited. If you have been there less than 2 years you have no rights to trubuneral but you can still persue the matter in a civil court. He on the other hand could claim frustration of contract if you fail to show up but this is normally a get out clause to stop paying you on the basis that you died. I don't believe he has a leg to stand on insisting you return. He is obviously a total wit in terms of management skills. Good luck see if you can nail the bastard.

[theexcession]

nonegreen said:

I don't believe he has a leg to stand on insisting you return. He is obviously a total wit in terms of management skills. Good luck see if you can nail the bastard.

Hi John, thanks for the info.

(ETA sorry about the long post, and to keep harping on about this - I'm taking this opportunity to try and get everything down)

At risk of repeating myself but there's probably a few points that should be made.

1. I've worked for this guy continuously over the past four or five years.

2. Currently the company is small and only comprises him as director and two other people. There are no formal offices as such and we all work from home.

3. When I moved over to the Republic of Ireland in November 2004 we set up a new fixed term contract, this being because I would now be responsible for my tax etc.

4. Over the past year or so he has developed a tendency of ranting at staff members down the phone, morale and motivation is very low. The other members of the company are also thoroughly sick of him shouting and swearing at them down the telephone.

5. This situation has come about after I had been trying to fix a complicated problem with one of our computer systems based in Australia. His gripe is that I didn't escalate the problem to him, additionally neither did one of my other colleagues that was assisting me at the time.

During this whole episode I had been in constant contact with the Customer and another colleague. My colleague was actually on site at another Customer's premises in Holland, and by 0200hrs we'd agreed a plan of attack for me to follow. I then suggested that he get back to his hotel and get some sleep as he had to work onsite again the following day.

My boss called me at around 0800 hrs on the 21st of July asking what was happening. At this stage I had been working solidly on the problem since lunchtime the previous day. I stated the problems with the system and indicated that I still hadn't been able to fix them.

He then declared that I was incompetent, incapable of sorting the problem and essentially just pissing about.

I stated that I was in touch with my colleague - who is the system expert, and we were doing our best to resolve the problem.

In response to his 'excited' and colourful language I stated that I was extremely tired, and was not in the mood to have him ranting at me and would he mind postponing this bollocking until later when the problem had been fixed and I'd had some sleep. At all times I remained calm and did not raise my voice.

He continued to rant at me and I asked him again to stop and leave it for another day, this appears to of angered him further. So choosing my words carefully (I was very tired btw) I pointed out that morale in the Company was 'lower than a very very low thing and that everyone else in his employment was thoroughly sick of having him shout down the phone at them'.

He then proceeded to get very 'excited' and finally declare that I was fired. I seem to recall him indicating that this would be at the end of the month. In response I simply agreed with - 'fine', and told him I needed to continue assisting my colleague onsite in Holland in resolving the matter.

6. Later that day, I received an email (that he has since declared I was not meant to see) indicating to the two other employees that he intends to keep me on for the next three months and stating what aspects of the work I've been doing that they will need assistance on to enable a handover of my work.

In response to this I sent a reply stating that in my opinion he had fired me and therefore I found it hard to comprehend how he intended to 'keep me on for three months'. In this reply I described my recollection of the telephone conversation and pointed out that I had agreed to his 'wishes' to fire me.


7. Later that evening - in response to my email he replied twice. Once simply stating 'Read Your Contract', and in a second email, he apologised for sending me the first email (describing he was keeping me on for three months) - stating I wasn't supposed to have seen it, he went on to say "Also, I didn’t actually say when you were fired."


So.....

1. I am now in dispute of the fact that he is claiming he never said when I was fired. (interestingly he hasn't denied saying he would be firing me), and I certainly don't want to complete the further three months. In previous contracts there has been a clause indicating that an employee must give 3 months notice but I can't find anything in this contract to indicate this.

2. I don't want to do anything that may jeopardise my position in terms of breach of the contract that might enable him to get back at me. And so far I've said nothing further apart from a one-line email stating, "Could you please clarify to me exactly what you see as being the current state of the situation."

3. It is plainly evident that likely he really didn't expect me to agree to him sacking me - I think he believes he is doing us all a favour by giving us a job, and probably expected me to come grovelling back begging for him to keep me.

4. He has likely realised now that he will be unable to deliver on a new contract with a Customer, this project requires my skill set, and there is no one else in the company who could see it through.

5. He has a history of ranting at his employees and blowing his top, to the degree whereby most of us really don't ever want to talk to him. We pass warnings on MSN to each other when one of us has just received a rant so that the others can duck and cover.

6. I know for a fact that he has upset the MD of another company to whom he was subcontracting work, this to the degree whereby this other company want nothing more to do with him. All for similar reasons to the points I've made above.

7. I'm not prepared to tolerate this from him anymore, regardless of what I may or may not have done in error; I don't believe that I have to take this. Frankly it's horrible, to have someone shouting and swearing at you down the phone, it leaves you utterly demoralised, you get angry, your blood pressure goes up, and it really doesn't leave you wanting to do any work. On a few occasions when this has happened in the past I've calmly enquired as to 'which school of management training tells you to motivate your staff in this manner?'

8. I've been in conversation with the other 2 employees, both of them are sick of his behaviour, and I guess we've all been waiting for the 'big bang' where someone goes.
We all get on very well and go out of our way to support each other and our customers. The thought of the Company collapsing and potentially leaving one of us in the shit is the only thing that has kept us still working together.
It seems that now the fuse has blown, they are both behind me on this. Both have stated that I should pursue the boss for compensation (initially I was happy just to have a get-out and be done with it all). But, reading the responses posted here on PH and listening to my colleagues, I think I am prepared to take this further.

It is our opinion that he needs hauling over the coals on this one, and learning that you can't expect to get away with treating people this way. We're all agreed that he is just a bully and needs teaching a lesson.


So, to end, and if you've read this far thanks!

Given he is now claiming he didn't say when I was fired, but hasn't denied the fact that he intends to fire me.

I need to know, come Monday morning am I expected to do any work for him?

I know I can raise a grievance complaint, so if I do this, am I expected to continue working under the contract or are 'all bets off' so to speak?

best
Ex

[Pot Bellied Fool]

Sounds like a Grade1 Muppet - has he got other problems (cashflow for instance) that are making him blow his top I wonder?

But from what you say, you & the colleague in Holland where already going well beyond the normal call in your efforts to get the Oz system back up & running.

Can't help you on the legalities other than to comment it's a lot harder to prove incompetence than disobedience - the old military trick of saying "yessir!" and then doing something completely different 'by accident'

But I've known many situations where that final straw has prompted one of the group to think sod it.. set up a company, take the rest of the good guys with him & then be in an ideal position to pick up the pieces - particularly when most clients presumably have a relationship almost with their usual contact rather than the Company as such...

Edit for speeling

>> Edited by Pot Bellied Fool on Saturday 23 July 19:02

[tallbloke]

theexcession said:

He then proceeded to get very 'excited' and finally declare that I was fired.

If he said "you're fired" I don't see how he can later change this to "you will be fired at a later date". Print off the email in which he says that, it's worth it's weight in gold at a constructive dismissal tribunal. Ring him on monday morning and tell him you are taking some time off to get legal advice and consider your position. What can he do? sack you?

[Mannginger]

Ex - Are there people working for him on continuous employment contracts? If so what are their notice periods? (Do you know or can you access this info as it is important)

Cheers

Phil

Edited again as I didn't read properly!

>> Edited by Mannginger on Saturday 23 July 20:13

>> Edited by Mannginger on Saturday 23 July 20:17

[theexcession]

Pot Bellied Fool said:

Sounds like a Grade1 Muppet - has he got other problems (cashflow for instance) that are making him blow his top I wonder?

Possibly, I believe he has a lot of property around te place and also has a part share in a private plane so he's used to big spending.

There have been many occurences of being paid late over the years though recently this hasn't bee ntoo much of a problem.

We (the employees) often wonder where all the money's gone.

best
Ex

[theexcession]

Mannginger said:

Ex - Are there people working for him on continuous employment contracts? If so what are their notice periods? (Do you know or can you access this info as it is important) Cheers Phil

Hi Phil, I'm pretty certain that the other two are on a permanent contracts. I used to be before moving over here. The notice period for an employee wishing to leave was three months.

For him to dismiss or make an employee redundant I'm guessing that it would be te same as my current one which is he can do it immediately but he may be left facing charges upto but not exceeding 5 days pay.

I'll check with the other lads and see if I can get a copy.

It's interesting though that because I've worked for him continuosly for such a long time now I might be under a full employment statute.

best
Ex

[Mannginger]

Yes I believe that it's 4 or more years of continuous fixed term work means that in the eyes of the law you should be treated the same as any permanant employee.

See here: www.dti.gov.uk/er/fixed/fixed-pl512a.htm

If the perms have a 3 month notice period on either party, he and you could expect the same period of notice.

However that doesn't get round the fact that he has said that you're fired. Proving that may be a bit trickier however...

I have to say that I am not an employment law specialist. Have a check around the Dti site and think about speaking to ACAS before you speak with your boss.

Apologies I couldn't help further

Phil

[Eric Mc]

Excession - opeining so many threads on this topic is not going to make replying to responses easy. I had set out a few questions to you on one of your "other" threads which you did not reply to - mainly to do with your "Self Employed" status and the fact that you are resident in the Irish Republic.

What is the score on this?

My hunch is that your "Employment Rights" might be severely curtailed because you do not apprear to be an employee at all - and to compound matters, you are not resident in the UK, so will not have easy access to the UK legal system.

Could you clarify your position please?

>> Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 24th July 10:22

[edc]

Try www.emplaw.co.uk

[Eric Mc]

edc - none of that may apply to the excession. He appears to based outside the UK. I'm waiting for him to clarify the nature of the contract he has in place with the people he works for but my hunch is that UK Emplyment Law will have no bearing on his situation.

[edc]

I have to say I didn't even click the profile to check location, just assumed, bad I know, that if not UK then it would have been stated, oops.

[Eric Mc]

At the moment he has three threads opened on this one topic so it's getting difficult to follow the development of the discussion.

[nonegreen]

I think you are firmly in the driving seat here. Firstly you can only be summararily dismissed for an act of gross misconduct. Such a dismissal is instant and no notice period is required. From that absolute you now have a number of other possibilities. You can either go for unfair dismissal and make a claim in a tribuneral. Alternatively you can claim constructive and describe the events you have laid down here. I believe your contract is illegal as it seems he has imposed this fixed term contract as a result of you moving to Eire. This is irrelavent and such a change to terms could only be achieved as a result of agreement with you. If you did not agree with the terms then you are still employed on your original contract. As for redundancy if he believes he can give you 1 weeks pay he is away the fairies. The legal minumum is as follows

up to 41 yrs old = notice plus 1 week pay for every year of service or legal min of 250ish per week for every year of service whichever is the least.

between 41 and 59 yrs old 1.5 weeks pay etc as above.

59 to 65 yrs old as for under 41s.

If he refused to pay this you can call in the receivers and assume he is trading while insolvent.

I strongly suggest you make a call to ACAS before you speak to the employer again. There are so many possibilities here. You need to sit down with an expert and determine the strategy. If you elect to simply take the guys pants off as I am sure you can then you must pick one infringement to do it with. The reason for this is tribunerals do not take kindly to multi facetted complaints. They see it as whining and often sympathise with the employer. A simple case like you were told you were fired and then pressured into returning is probably the best bet. Once you have seen Acas then get a good tribuneral rep who knows the ropes. This does not necessarily have to be a solicitor there are plenty of lay specialists out there who are ex personnel people who will do a better job and be cheaper.

[Eric Mc]

Nonegreen - he has no access to ACAS. He lives and works in the Irish Republic.

[nonegreen]

Eric Mc said:

Nonegreen - he has no access to ACAS. He lives and works in the Irish Republic.

What they dont know cant be assumed. Fair point but give em a ring and tell em about Ireland last.

[theexcession]

Yup. Sorry everybody - I had meant this one to go into SP&L, where its a bit quieter, I thought it might pick up some of the regular posters with this kind of experience in there.

Perhaps a mod could move it if they think it is more suited out of the 'noise' of P&P.

Eric Mc said:

Excession - opeining so many threads on this topic is not going to make replying to responses easy. I had set out a few questions to you on one of your "other" threads which you did not reply to - mainly to do with your "Self Employed" status and the fact that you are resident in the Irish Republic. What is the score on this?

Eric, regarding your questions on the contract, You are correct I am living and working out of the Republic of Ireland.

In one Article of the contract it states "This Contract shall be governed by and interpreted according to the laws of England" - so my guess is tha is where I should be looking.

There is nothing that specifically says what 'type' of contract it is, other than it being for 'Internet and Telecommunications Software and Systems Development'

It then goes into a bit of preamble about who the contracted parties are and what their responsibillities are etc. A lot of it is pretty vague.

Eric Mc said:

My hunch is that your "Employment Rights" might be severely curtailed because you do not apprear to be an employee at all - and to compound matters, you are not resident in the UK, so will not have easy access to the UK legal system. Could you clarify your position please?

Indeed getting free Legal Assistence is looking like it may be an issue, even most of the CAB offices now require you to be resident in the area, and I'm also getting the feeling that they will only answer simple questions over the telephone which likely means I'll have to drop in to an office.

thanks
Ex

[viggen114]

Depending on the relationship you have with the 'end client'.

Approach them and contract to them directly, maybe a few issues to sort out, but it is a poke in the eye for barsteward.