English language printing and carving
Discussion
Watching Rob Bell prog on Westminster Bridge ..or as printed in several documents
Weftminfter Bridge
Was there any reason/rule for the use of a letter like f to replace an s as s is used 'correctly' in other words
And Carving letters
When stonemasons were quite capable and skilled in doing circles and curves O B R S etc why was U always done as a V?
Weftminfter Bridge
Was there any reason/rule for the use of a letter like f to replace an s as s is used 'correctly' in other words
And Carving letters
When stonemasons were quite capable and skilled in doing circles and curves O B R S etc why was U always done as a V?
The thing that looks like "ft" in those old documents is a ligature character that represents "st". The "f" is just a hyper-stylised "s" that connects to the "t".
Basic idea is that some character pairs can't be spaced properly without touching, so a combined character is used that makes the connection in a deliberate fashion. They're quite common in script fonts.
The "st" ligature fell out of common use early in the 18th century. The most common ligatures that are still in use are combined "fi" and "fl" characters where the top of the "f" replaces the dot of the "I" or connects to the "l".
k
Basic idea is that some character pairs can't be spaced properly without touching, so a combined character is used that makes the connection in a deliberate fashion. They're quite common in script fonts.
The "st" ligature fell out of common use early in the 18th century. The most common ligatures that are still in use are combined "fi" and "fl" characters where the top of the "f" replaces the dot of the "I" or connects to the "l".
k
Don't forget the "Long S!"
It's not just a different way of printing "s" though - in an old book or whatever there will be the short "s" too. It's basically a different letter!
It's very simple, honest
Shamelessly copied from Wikipedia:
Not so much for carving, but for printing not that long ago, the capitalisation was a bit nuts. It seems that every noun was captialised, along with certain verbs - it does mess the flow up a bit. They also seemed to have a real thing for abbreviations and shortening words.
As for the V instead of U, I think that comes from them just aping the Romans - the Romans didn't have the letter U and used V in its place. But with handwriting and printing people would generally use U. Same for I and J.
There's lots of things thay have been influenced by printing.
An interesting one is the use of C in Welsh for hard C sounds (like in "Cat") as a C is always a hard C in Welsh. However in the past they usually used K, but with printing presses, they rarely had enough Ks, so they started using C in its place. It's also why it's full of dd and ll, there were separate letters for these sounds, but they weren't used in printing so they substituted dd and ll.
Similar letters are used in Icelandic though - if they brought them back for Welsh it would probably help it make more sense!
It's not just a different way of printing "s" though - in an old book or whatever there will be the short "s" too. It's basically a different letter!
It's very simple, honest
Shamelessly copied from Wikipedia:
Wikipedia said:
A round s is always used at the end of a word ending in s: "his", "complains", "succe?s"
However, long s is maintained in abbreviations such as "?." for "?ub?tantive" (substantive), and "Gene?." for "Gene?is" (Genesis)
Before an apostrophe (indicating an omitted letter) a round s is used: "us'd" and "clos'd"
Before and after an f, a round s is used: "offset", "?atisfaction."
Before a breaking hyphen at the end of the line, a long s must be used: "Shaft?-bury". (When hyphenation was not required, the word was spelled Shaftsbury, with a round s.[3])
In the 17th century the round s was used before k and b: "ask", "husband"; in the 18th century: "a?k" and "hu?band".
Otherwise long s is used: "?ong", "?ub?titute".
It does look a bit strange really, in my head it sounds as if it's been written by someone with a really strange Lisp, or Lifp However, long s is maintained in abbreviations such as "?." for "?ub?tantive" (substantive), and "Gene?." for "Gene?is" (Genesis)
Before an apostrophe (indicating an omitted letter) a round s is used: "us'd" and "clos'd"
Before and after an f, a round s is used: "offset", "?atisfaction."
Before a breaking hyphen at the end of the line, a long s must be used: "Shaft?-bury". (When hyphenation was not required, the word was spelled Shaftsbury, with a round s.[3])
In the 17th century the round s was used before k and b: "ask", "husband"; in the 18th century: "a?k" and "hu?band".
Otherwise long s is used: "?ong", "?ub?titute".
Not so much for carving, but for printing not that long ago, the capitalisation was a bit nuts. It seems that every noun was captialised, along with certain verbs - it does mess the flow up a bit. They also seemed to have a real thing for abbreviations and shortening words.
As for the V instead of U, I think that comes from them just aping the Romans - the Romans didn't have the letter U and used V in its place. But with handwriting and printing people would generally use U. Same for I and J.
There's lots of things thay have been influenced by printing.
An interesting one is the use of C in Welsh for hard C sounds (like in "Cat") as a C is always a hard C in Welsh. However in the past they usually used K, but with printing presses, they rarely had enough Ks, so they started using C in its place. It's also why it's full of dd and ll, there were separate letters for these sounds, but they weren't used in printing so they substituted dd and ll.
Similar letters are used in Icelandic though - if they brought them back for Welsh it would probably help it make more sense!
Edited by Plymo on Tuesday 5th October 07:06
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