Those who have/do work in the Middle East (particularly KSA)
Discussion
I have been tentatively offered a role that is across the GCC but is HQ'd in Saudi which is a great opportunity and im very keen on the role (all the perks aside) and have a couple of questions, if people wouldn't mind indulging me:
The one thing that keeps cropping up though on all the ex-pat forums etc. is about boredom for workers in Saudi as there is little to do compared with Qatar / UAE / etc. Is this a reality or overblown?
Tax-free incomes, great and everything is expensed / included, this includes accommodation / 8 flights years to/from the UK (or other destination) / daily food and travel allowance ($225/day - which feels more than ample from here)) which means everything being earned is essentially bankable, but in reality where do people put it - clearly a UK bank account isn't a clever idea, I dont know anything about Saudi/Sharia banking, so what do others do?
The one thing that keeps cropping up though on all the ex-pat forums etc. is about boredom for workers in Saudi as there is little to do compared with Qatar / UAE / etc. Is this a reality or overblown?
Tax-free incomes, great and everything is expensed / included, this includes accommodation / 8 flights years to/from the UK (or other destination) / daily food and travel allowance ($225/day - which feels more than ample from here)) which means everything being earned is essentially bankable, but in reality where do people put it - clearly a UK bank account isn't a clever idea, I dont know anything about Saudi/Sharia banking, so what do others do?
I had a major KSA-based organisation as a client for some time, so got to spend time with quite a few of the British expats who worked for them. This was in Jeddah, which they all said was a much nicer place to be than Riyadh - swim in the Red Sea, more relaxed vibe, etc etc. Their experiences depended on whether they had families, and whether those families were with them or back in Blighty. It’s fair to say that boredom and general isolation were a major issue for many or most of them, apart from a few who loved lying by a pool reading books when not at work and didn’t need much more stimulation than that. There was quite a bit of illicit drinking and a lot of failed marriages - which probably ended up soaking up most of the money they’d earned.
I don’t know what your offer is like, but mostly the money they were actually netting wasn’t all that. Deduct tax on everything you bring back to the UK (which will be most of it - the days of secret Swiss bank accounts and briefcases of cash are long gone thanks to global money-laundering regulations), money you spend because you’re bored and depressed, costs of keeping two households going, blah blah blah and the differential wasn’t that much. Especially as most of them couldn’t stand it for more than a few years so never got to accrue much.
I obviously can’t comment on whether this would be a good idea for you. But my observations of those I met out there led me to believe that I’d only consider it if there was absolutely no way I could get a job in Europe that could pay me enough to live on.
I don’t know what your offer is like, but mostly the money they were actually netting wasn’t all that. Deduct tax on everything you bring back to the UK (which will be most of it - the days of secret Swiss bank accounts and briefcases of cash are long gone thanks to global money-laundering regulations), money you spend because you’re bored and depressed, costs of keeping two households going, blah blah blah and the differential wasn’t that much. Especially as most of them couldn’t stand it for more than a few years so never got to accrue much.
I obviously can’t comment on whether this would be a good idea for you. But my observations of those I met out there led me to believe that I’d only consider it if there was absolutely no way I could get a job in Europe that could pay me enough to live on.
Sid's Dad said:
I don’t know what your offer is like, but mostly the money they were actually netting wasn’t all that. Deduct tax on everything you bring back to the UK (edited)
Why would you be taxed on money you bring back? If you stay out of the UK for the tax year (you get 90 days or so if I remember) then you're not subject to UK tax. We don't (yet) have the American style of tax on worldwide earnings.Anyone who works out there for a couple of years & doesn't bring barrowloads of cash back isn't doing it right.
x5tuu said:
I have been tentatively offered a role that is across the GCC but is HQ'd in Saudi which is a great opportunity and im very keen on the role (all the perks aside) and have a couple of questions, if people wouldn't mind indulging me:
The one thing that keeps cropping up though on all the ex-pat forums etc. is about boredom for workers in Saudi as there is little to do compared with Qatar / UAE / etc. Is this a reality or overblown?
Tax-free incomes, great and everything is expensed / included, this includes accommodation / 8 flights years to/from the UK (or other destination) / daily food and travel allowance ($225/day - which feels more than ample from here)) which means everything being earned is essentially bankable, but in reality where do people put it - clearly a UK bank account isn't a clever idea, I dont know anything about Saudi/Sharia banking, so what do others do?
In terms of banking I'm 90% sure you can have your earnings paid into a UK bank account. Assuming you're out of the country for the appropriate length of time then you're not liable for UK tax> However I'm guessing a bit.The one thing that keeps cropping up though on all the ex-pat forums etc. is about boredom for workers in Saudi as there is little to do compared with Qatar / UAE / etc. Is this a reality or overblown?
Tax-free incomes, great and everything is expensed / included, this includes accommodation / 8 flights years to/from the UK (or other destination) / daily food and travel allowance ($225/day - which feels more than ample from here)) which means everything being earned is essentially bankable, but in reality where do people put it - clearly a UK bank account isn't a clever idea, I dont know anything about Saudi/Sharia banking, so what do others do?
in terms of KSA I have several family/friends who worked there. However they were all muslim so their experiences might not be relevant. Apparently life is very boring in the Expat compounds and most of their non-muslim colleagues just spent weekends getting drunk. However the pay/perks make up for a lot of things.
shirt said:
I’m not in saudi but understand from people who are that you can’t really compare saudi 1-2yrs ago with saudi now from the social life perspective.
One thing that I have heard consistently from people who have worked there, or just stayed there for a short term is that most saudis are the rudest most arrogant bunch of b
ds you will meet, and you will constantly have to fight the urge to punch them if you're working with them. However MBS's plan is to make the country self sufficient by 2035 and more and more saudis are being forced to work for a living so that might all be changing.shirt said:
Gt3rob is yer man for ksa. There’s also a Middle East subforum.
I’m not in saudi but understand from people who are that you can’t really compare saudi 1-2yrs ago with saudi now from the social life perspective.
Well….they’re trying, but it’s not barasti and brunches. The advent of cinema is the biggest social change. There won’t be much to do outside the accommodation, so for me it would depend how good the accommodation is. I’d really press them on this and seek cast iron assurances about which accommodation you’re in and the lifestyle in that accommodation.I’m not in saudi but understand from people who are that you can’t really compare saudi 1-2yrs ago with saudi now from the social life perspective.
I’ve been in Riyadh for approaching 4 years. 16 in total in the gulf. Feel free to pm or ask any questions here in public. Is it a Saudi company or a temporary placing from a Uk company? If Saudi, they will have to pay you into a local bank account, not a foreign one. HSBC have a local affiliate here called SABB who have been decent enough, and you can always open a gbp account as well if you want to hold sterling.
A lot has changed in 4 years. Still got a long way to go, but vastly improved, though from a low baseline. Burgeoning restaurant scene with great restaurants opening every week. Genuinely good food available. Look up Ovi Lounge on google for an example of the effort people are going to. Cultural venues are still a bit lame, but again improving. Misk institute has been set up to incubate the arts and again, is doing a good job. Many of the new restaurants are set up with a bar area, and a lot of restaurants are specifically hiring mixologists. Maybe they know something we don’t….
Is accommodation provided or are you paying? If it’s provided, find out where. If not (you may get an allowance) then factor the cost in. A 1 bed apartment in a compound will cost you 25k per year at least. Off compound, this can be 10k or less. For example, I pay 6k…..
Again, depending on the type of business and the company, you may get very lucky with the Saudi’s you work with. The guys (and especially the girls) I work with are fantastic. Well educated, modern outlook and much more willing to socialize than Emiratis etc. I often dine out, chill, go hiking etc with the girls from the office. Absolutely NOT what I expected.
The majority of work these days is based out of Riyadh. It used to be Jeddah, but no longer. Many saudi friends have come here from Jeddah, and the general opinion is that Riyadh is now more interesting than Jeddah.
I’m enjoying my time here. My job is amazing. A scale of projects that I have never worked on before - including in Dubai in the good days!
A lot has changed in 4 years. Still got a long way to go, but vastly improved, though from a low baseline. Burgeoning restaurant scene with great restaurants opening every week. Genuinely good food available. Look up Ovi Lounge on google for an example of the effort people are going to. Cultural venues are still a bit lame, but again improving. Misk institute has been set up to incubate the arts and again, is doing a good job. Many of the new restaurants are set up with a bar area, and a lot of restaurants are specifically hiring mixologists. Maybe they know something we don’t….
Is accommodation provided or are you paying? If it’s provided, find out where. If not (you may get an allowance) then factor the cost in. A 1 bed apartment in a compound will cost you 25k per year at least. Off compound, this can be 10k or less. For example, I pay 6k…..
Again, depending on the type of business and the company, you may get very lucky with the Saudi’s you work with. The guys (and especially the girls) I work with are fantastic. Well educated, modern outlook and much more willing to socialize than Emiratis etc. I often dine out, chill, go hiking etc with the girls from the office. Absolutely NOT what I expected.
The majority of work these days is based out of Riyadh. It used to be Jeddah, but no longer. Many saudi friends have come here from Jeddah, and the general opinion is that Riyadh is now more interesting than Jeddah.
I’m enjoying my time here. My job is amazing. A scale of projects that I have never worked on before - including in Dubai in the good days!
Thanks all - that’s super helpful.
It’s a Riyadh based role and is a for a global / American consultancy group but there is question around if they will employ me or if the Saudi government will. I need clarity on this.
The employer will be / are providing the accommodation as part of the “package” (but haven’t specified anything yet), the $225 is the living allowance on top and then it’s a day rate of $1325 salary - all USD rates have been quoted for the package, which is too good to not consider.
I’d be looking to maintain the house in the U.K. indefinitely but certainly wouldn’t be looking to incur U.K. taxes whilst out there!
I’d be happy to get into duning etc… but sitting in an expat compound or sunbathing with a book would kill me. I’m not a big drinker at all and used to be TeeTotal so the thought of a dry country isn’t a problem.
It’s a Riyadh based role and is a for a global / American consultancy group but there is question around if they will employ me or if the Saudi government will. I need clarity on this.
The employer will be / are providing the accommodation as part of the “package” (but haven’t specified anything yet), the $225 is the living allowance on top and then it’s a day rate of $1325 salary - all USD rates have been quoted for the package, which is too good to not consider.
I’d be looking to maintain the house in the U.K. indefinitely but certainly wouldn’t be looking to incur U.K. taxes whilst out there!
I’d be happy to get into duning etc… but sitting in an expat compound or sunbathing with a book would kill me. I’m not a big drinker at all and used to be TeeTotal so the thought of a dry country isn’t a problem.
UnfortunateUserName said:
I’ve been in Riyadh for approaching 4 years. 16 in total in the gulf. Feel free to pm or ask any questions here in public. Is it a Saudi company or a temporary placing from a Uk company? If Saudi, they will have to pay you into a local bank account, not a foreign one. HSBC have a local affiliate here called SABB who have been decent enough, and you can always open a gbp account as well if you want to hold sterling.
A lot has changed in 4 years. Still got a long way to go, but vastly improved, though from a low baseline. Burgeoning restaurant scene with great restaurants opening every week. Genuinely good food available. Look up Ovi Lounge on google for an example of the effort people are going to. Cultural venues are still a bit lame, but again improving. Misk institute has been set up to incubate the arts and again, is doing a good job. Many of the new restaurants are set up with a bar area, and a lot of restaurants are specifically hiring mixologists. Maybe they know something we don’t….
Is accommodation provided or are you paying? If it’s provided, find out where. If not (you may get an allowance) then factor the cost in. A 1 bed apartment in a compound will cost you 25k per year at least. Off compound, this can be 10k or less. For example, I pay 6k…..
Again, depending on the type of business and the company, you may get very lucky with the Saudi’s you work with. The guys (and especially the girls) I work with are fantastic. Well educated, modern outlook and much more willing to socialize than Emiratis etc. I often dine out, chill, go hiking etc with the girls from the office. Absolutely NOT what I expected.
The majority of work these days is based out of Riyadh. It used to be Jeddah, but no longer. Many saudi friends have come here from Jeddah, and the general opinion is that Riyadh is now more interesting than Jeddah.
I’m enjoying my time here. My job is amazing. A scale of projects that I have never worked on before - including in Dubai in the good days!
I lived in Riyad for 2 years in 1999-2000 and am happy to hear that it is opening up a bit. I LOVED it personally but i was single at the time so had a lot of free time to explore.A lot has changed in 4 years. Still got a long way to go, but vastly improved, though from a low baseline. Burgeoning restaurant scene with great restaurants opening every week. Genuinely good food available. Look up Ovi Lounge on google for an example of the effort people are going to. Cultural venues are still a bit lame, but again improving. Misk institute has been set up to incubate the arts and again, is doing a good job. Many of the new restaurants are set up with a bar area, and a lot of restaurants are specifically hiring mixologists. Maybe they know something we don’t….
Is accommodation provided or are you paying? If it’s provided, find out where. If not (you may get an allowance) then factor the cost in. A 1 bed apartment in a compound will cost you 25k per year at least. Off compound, this can be 10k or less. For example, I pay 6k…..
Again, depending on the type of business and the company, you may get very lucky with the Saudi’s you work with. The guys (and especially the girls) I work with are fantastic. Well educated, modern outlook and much more willing to socialize than Emiratis etc. I often dine out, chill, go hiking etc with the girls from the office. Absolutely NOT what I expected.
The majority of work these days is based out of Riyadh. It used to be Jeddah, but no longer. Many saudi friends have come here from Jeddah, and the general opinion is that Riyadh is now more interesting than Jeddah.
I’m enjoying my time here. My job is amazing. A scale of projects that I have never worked on before - including in Dubai in the good days!
A lot depends on the quality of the compound you live in - the larger American ones have lots of social activitis like a theatre company, darts teams, anything you can think of.
My assessment is that the lack of distractions (some read this as 'boredom') tends to amplify your character. Meaning if you're social you'll crave more social interaction. If you're a bit of social drinker...then you will drink! I saw a lot of drinking. I'm a sporty person so I ran lots of 10ks and half marathons, raced bikes, ran triathlons, played tennis, squash, cricket, lifted weights, learned to scuba dive, did rock climbing and learned to sand-board on the dunes. Most people have a good off-roader and take trips in the wadi with picnics. There are some old ghost towns outside of Riyadh and a cliff called "the edge of the world" IIRC.
I loved the Saudi people by and large and yes, after a while you'll talk about religion with them although your firm will warn you about this as it is against the law to proselytise (i.e. preach any religion other than Islam) so be careful. Be careful in general, you're in a strict country so just don't do stupid things! Be kind and respectful just as your parents taught you and you'll be fine.
All the above was really before the internet so I bet it's all a lot easier now to find distractions. But I wonder how fast internet speeds are given people said all lines into the kingdom used to go via the Ministry of Information's servers to monitor contect. etc.
Do you have a family or are you single? This is a bigger question in a way than the package..
Sid's Dad said:
I don’t know what your offer is like, but mostly the money they were actually netting wasn’t all that. Deduct tax on everything you bring back to the UK (which will be most of it - the days of secret Swiss bank accounts and briefcases of cash are long gone thanks to global money-laundering regulations), money you spend because you’re bored and depressed, costs of keeping two households going, blah blah blah and the differential wasn’t that much.
Sorry but that is utter rubbish. If he's working full time in Saudi, not in the UK for more than 90 days & does a complete tax year, there is no issue of UK tax whatsover, never has been.shirt said:
Gt3rob is yer man for ksa.
What a thing to be known for!I've lived in Jubail & Yanbu. My experience is based on working 60hr weeks / 6 day weeks so not having a great deal of spare time anyhow. There are a lot of horror stories about Saudi, but the reality as some others who have lived there note is different. You get used to certain things & don't notice after a while. I'll be honest I never really got bored. In Yanbu would dive most Fridays. Red Sea has some of the best diving in the world & because it's not over dived like on the Egyptian side some of it is fantastic. Jubail was only 2 hrs drive to Bahrain, so if you wanted it was relatively easy to have a weekend "away". Would also tend to fly into Bahrain, then drive over to Saudi. It tended to be quicker & easier than flying into Damman.
In the last couple of years there have been noticeable positive differences from the modernisation changes being introduced. The place has a less controlled feel to it. Some Saudis do have a sense of entitlement which makes them seem rude & arrogant. A lot don't & can be very warm hospitable people.
The key things to watch are who employs you & sponsors your visa/residence permit, etc. Always preferable to have this as a western company (Saudi branch obviously). If it's a large Saudi company, say Aramco, also no problems. Smaller local companies can be problematic & are less likely to assist you if there are any problems.
Find out the accommodation situation. If you are in a western style compound thats best. Compound sounds awful, but think gated community. In Yanbu I was in something called Arabian Homes. Mostly western, looked like a Spanish villa complex, with multiple pools, tennis courts, gym, shop, restaurant. Quite pleasant.
Driving, can be an experience, lets just leave it there. Are your employer providing a car?
8 return tickets a year is generous, but welcome!
Overall if you go into it with your eyes open Saudi is fine to work. The money, at least for me was significantly better than elsewhere in the gulf. It's not a holiday camp, but then many locations aren't. Working overseas is not always glitz & glamour. You haven't mentioned family, but if there is one make sure they are fully on board with what you are doing. This goes for any overseas location but especially Saudi.
Edited by GT03ROB on Monday 18th October 05:10
Hopefully they are calling me today / tomorrow and I will ask a lot of the questions raised from here then - mainly financial and accommodation related but also about the car / transport element, I think I know the answer to this already (they dont, and expect the $225/day to cover taxi costs) - but I would prefer my own vehicle.
Family - very much on board but it'll just be me going out
Thanks again - hopefully it all proceeds well and ill be out there this side of Christmas!
Family - very much on board but it'll just be me going out
Thanks again - hopefully it all proceeds well and ill be out there this side of Christmas!
x5tuu said:
I’d be looking to maintain the house in the U.K. indefinitely but certainly wouldn’t be looking to incur U.K. taxes whilst out there
Definately keep the UK house & do some reserch on the UK tax situation. A crude summary is that you have to be out for the whole tax year so the clock starts on April 6th, not when you fly out. You need to be out for the whole tax year & during that time you can only return to the UK for 90 days so keep an accurate log (generally what counts is where you spent the night, so the day you fly out doesn't count).If you start or finish part way throuht the tax year then there are some complicated rules that define how much of your income is subject to UK tax.
GT03ROB said:
By the way how much leave do you get to go with those 8 trips home per year?
Thats one of the negotiation points - 30days has been mentioned as a guide and start point. Mr Pointy said:
Definately keep the UK house & do some reserch on the UK tax situation. A crude summary is that you have to be out for the whole tax year so the clock starts on April 6th, not when you fly out. You need to be out for the whole tax year & during that time you can only return to the UK for 90 days so keep an accurate log (generally what counts is where you spent the night, so the day you fly out doesn't count).
If you start or finish part way throuht the tax year then there are some complicated rules that define how much of your income is subject to UK tax.
Super useful, thanks If you start or finish part way throuht the tax year then there are some complicated rules that define how much of your income is subject to UK tax.
I really need a good tax advisor that knows all this inside out as I will of course be potentially entering the process in the final half of the financial year after being a regular UK tax payer so far this year and need to make sure that everything is correct/maximised/minimised.
x5tuu said:
GT03ROB said:
By the way how much leave do you get to go with those 8 trips home per year?
Thats one of the negotiation points - 30days has been mentioned as a guide and start point. For reference I'm now in a far less harsh environment than Saudi & currently get 13 weeks.
x5tuu said:
Mr Pointy said:
Definately keep the UK house & do some reserch on the UK tax situation. A crude summary is that you have to be out for the whole tax year so the clock starts on April 6th, not when you fly out. You need to be out for the whole tax year & during that time you can only return to the UK for 90 days so keep an accurate log (generally what counts is where you spent the night, so the day you fly out doesn't count).
If you start or finish part way throuht the tax year then there are some complicated rules that define how much of your income is subject to UK tax.
Super useful, thanks If you start or finish part way throuht the tax year then there are some complicated rules that define how much of your income is subject to UK tax.
I really need a good tax advisor that knows all this inside out as I will of course be potentially entering the process in the final half of the financial year after being a regular UK tax payer so far this year and need to make sure that everything is correct/maximised/minimised.
GT03ROB said:
x5tuu said:
GT03ROB said:
By the way how much leave do you get to go with those 8 trips home per year?
Thats one of the negotiation points - 30days has been mentioned as a guide and start point. For reference I'm now in a far less harsh environment than Saudi & currently get 13 weeks.
x5tuu said:
Mr Pointy said:
Definately keep the UK house & do some reserch on the UK tax situation. A crude summary is that you have to be out for the whole tax year so the clock starts on April 6th, not when you fly out. You need to be out for the whole tax year & during that time you can only return to the UK for 90 days so keep an accurate log (generally what counts is where you spent the night, so the day you fly out doesn't count).
If you start or finish part way throuht the tax year then there are some complicated rules that define how much of your income is subject to UK tax.
Super useful, thanks If you start or finish part way throuht the tax year then there are some complicated rules that define how much of your income is subject to UK tax.
I really need a good tax advisor that knows all this inside out as I will of course be potentially entering the process in the final half of the financial year after being a regular UK tax payer so far this year and need to make sure that everything is correct/maximised/minimised.
The flights are indeed 4 roundtrips which doesn't fit with the 30days approach at all and it certainly needs work
I hadn't considered building the tax work into the negotiations but thats an excellent call - added to the list!
Not to be your career counsellor but is it a good career move vis a vis the industry you are in? If you’re in real estate or development, oil n gas or arms (sorry, now rebranded as security) then that’s a no brainier.
I’m in financial services and while it was a culturally rich experience for me it wasn’t a big career boost as it wasn’t a hot bed of financial innovation. It helped me land my next job but no lasting impact. Just a thought.
Also I remembered that if you happen to have an Israeli entry/exit stamp in your passport, better send away for a new passport. I had my Saudi visa stuck on a page in my passport and until that expired EVERYONE asked me what I was doing there, esp. when I went to the States. Note that this was right after 9/11 so ymmv.
I’m in financial services and while it was a culturally rich experience for me it wasn’t a big career boost as it wasn’t a hot bed of financial innovation. It helped me land my next job but no lasting impact. Just a thought.
Also I remembered that if you happen to have an Israeli entry/exit stamp in your passport, better send away for a new passport. I had my Saudi visa stuck on a page in my passport and until that expired EVERYONE asked me what I was doing there, esp. when I went to the States. Note that this was right after 9/11 so ymmv.
Van Dessel said:
Not to be your career counsellor but is it a good career move vis a vis the industry you are in? If you’re in real estate or development, oil n gas or arms (sorry, now rebranded as security) then that’s a no brainier.
I’m in financial services and while it was a culturally rich experience for me it wasn’t a big career boost as it wasn’t a hot bed of financial innovation. It helped me land my next job but no lasting impact. Just a thought.
Also I remembered that if you happen to have an Israeli entry/exit stamp in your passport, better send away for a new passport. I had my Saudi visa stuck on a page in my passport and until that expired EVERYONE asked me what I was doing there, esp. when I went to the States. Note that this was right after 9/11 so ymmv.
That’s a very valid point. I’m in financial services and while it was a culturally rich experience for me it wasn’t a big career boost as it wasn’t a hot bed of financial innovation. It helped me land my next job but no lasting impact. Just a thought.
Also I remembered that if you happen to have an Israeli entry/exit stamp in your passport, better send away for a new passport. I had my Saudi visa stuck on a page in my passport and until that expired EVERYONE asked me what I was doing there, esp. when I went to the States. Note that this was right after 9/11 so ymmv.
I work in health and the GCC are creating a unified approach to healthcare and I’ve been asked to be a part of a very small team that will design and implement it for the whole region (for my SME area - which not many people have) so the opportunity is pretty massive and could lead to lots of very large opportunities in any health economy anywhere in the world should it all work.
I’ve been to Isreal when I was younger as part of an exchange and have zero desire to return - that was a good couple of passports ago now though thankfully.
I do go to the US frequently though (normally) so that will indeed need to be a very carefully considered plan in the future (should it happen)
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