Advice for 17yr old flight school
Discussion
Been asked to death on here but thought id get a view for a much younger person. My step daughter is about to turn 17 next week and is at College doing an aviation course. The course is quite general and to be honest is more geared towards cabin crew which she is finding quite frustrating. She is now thinking what route to go down when she finished the course - it's 2 years and only started last month. I was looking last night at the RAF and also Universities that are running Pilot Aviation courses. Also flight school. Everything is expensive so also advice on how younger people have financed it please.
Thank you
Thank you
What does she want to do? If she wants to be a pilot then my opinion is that she is probably wasting her time on this college course. Despite the aviation industry being in a mess there are still lots of driven, gifted and highly academically qualified youngsters waiting in the wings. There are also many qualified pilots on furlough/doing other things waiting for an opportunity to get back into a cockpit. But, for the right person a lack of academic qualifications is no obstacle - my oldest friend has literally no academic qualifications but burning ambition took him to a captain's role for a major Middle-eastern airline before Covid hit.
My advice would be for her to focus on what she wants and go for it - does she want to be a pilot because it is a burning ambition/desire she has held for ages or because she left school and fancied this aviation course as something fun to do and being a pilot looked easy/well paid? If it's the latter then she is wasting her time and there are heaps of others who will elbow her out of the way very successfully because they want it more....
Flying is blinking expensive but there are plenty of ways to pay for it/do it. She could do a lot worse than getting a flying-related ground job at an Airline and starting flying in her own time. My company (an offshore helicopter company) are really keen on self-improvers working for them and have just given a crewing scheduler and an engineer (both girls) scholarships to become pilots, which is an absolutely brilliant deal for them. Other option is to get to Uni and join a University Air Squadron - competitive but highly recommended and she would get some basic military flying training whilst completing a uni degree.
Best of luck to her - it's a tough industry to get into but if she really really really wants to do it - she'll get there
My advice would be for her to focus on what she wants and go for it - does she want to be a pilot because it is a burning ambition/desire she has held for ages or because she left school and fancied this aviation course as something fun to do and being a pilot looked easy/well paid? If it's the latter then she is wasting her time and there are heaps of others who will elbow her out of the way very successfully because they want it more....
Flying is blinking expensive but there are plenty of ways to pay for it/do it. She could do a lot worse than getting a flying-related ground job at an Airline and starting flying in her own time. My company (an offshore helicopter company) are really keen on self-improvers working for them and have just given a crewing scheduler and an engineer (both girls) scholarships to become pilots, which is an absolutely brilliant deal for them. Other option is to get to Uni and join a University Air Squadron - competitive but highly recommended and she would get some basic military flying training whilst completing a uni degree.
Best of luck to her - it's a tough industry to get into but if she really really really wants to do it - she'll get there
wjwren said:
Been asked to death on here but thought id get a view for a much younger person. My step daughter is about to turn 17 next week and is at College doing an aviation course. The course is quite general and to be honest is more geared towards cabin crew which she is finding quite frustrating. She is now thinking what route to go down when she finished the course - it's 2 years and only started last month. I was looking last night at the RAF and also Universities that are running Pilot Aviation courses. Also flight school. Everything is expensive so also advice on how younger people have financed it please.
Thank you
Where are you based? Does she know what she wants to end up doing - ie pilot, engineering etc.Thank you
Be cautious with the RAF. I almost joined up after finishing my degree in '92. But they wouldn't discuss what I'd be doing until I'd joined up. My goal was to learn to fly, serve at least 15 years and probably more, and ultimately fly civilian. Their recruiter at the Uni basically said, "you've studied computing and electronics, so we could need you in a non-flying electronics / computing / communications equipment role".
If they'd been willing to commit to a flying role, I'd have been willing to commit to a long-term role with the RAF. But they simply wouldn't make that commitment. I'm the sort of person who wants control of their life, so ultimately the RAF wasn't for me.
Ultimately I learned to fly privately - got my PPL in 2004, CPL in 2007, and was happily starting on the ME IR when the financial crash happened. At that point I stopped the professional pilot training and stayed with IT. I still fly for fun though.
If they'd been willing to commit to a flying role, I'd have been willing to commit to a long-term role with the RAF. But they simply wouldn't make that commitment. I'm the sort of person who wants control of their life, so ultimately the RAF wasn't for me.
Ultimately I learned to fly privately - got my PPL in 2004, CPL in 2007, and was happily starting on the ME IR when the financial crash happened. At that point I stopped the professional pilot training and stayed with IT. I still fly for fun though.
Can you imagine if the RAF committed to give everyone who wanted one a flying role? Sounds like you did them a favour with that sort of attitude.
OP, Quite a lot has changed since 1992, just have a chat with the recruiters, they’re far more switched on these days. Also don’t discount the Army or the Navy, yes it’s (mostly) rotary rather than fixed wing but it’s still a good military career in aviation.
Sounds like the current course is 16-18 so she will complete in May/June 2023, so you have some time. Personally I’d look to get sponsored through Uni, find one that has a good OTC and they won’t really care about what course she studies. https://viewer.joomag.com/what-you-need-to-know-sp...
Might also be worth looking at NATS, they take people from 18?
OP, Quite a lot has changed since 1992, just have a chat with the recruiters, they’re far more switched on these days. Also don’t discount the Army or the Navy, yes it’s (mostly) rotary rather than fixed wing but it’s still a good military career in aviation.
Sounds like the current course is 16-18 so she will complete in May/June 2023, so you have some time. Personally I’d look to get sponsored through Uni, find one that has a good OTC and they won’t really care about what course she studies. https://viewer.joomag.com/what-you-need-to-know-sp...
Might also be worth looking at NATS, they take people from 18?
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 11th November 18:36
pablo said:
Can you imagine if the RAF committed to give everyone who wanted one a flying role? Sounds like you did them a favour with that sort of attitude.
Excuse me? Attitude? My life, my career, my responsibility. Life / career etc are not something that I am willing to have decided for me by others. If you call that ‘attitude’, fine - I call it owning my own life & career.Edited by pablo on Thursday 11th November 18:36
Magnum 475 said:
pablo said:
Can you imagine if the RAF committed to give everyone who wanted one a flying role? Sounds like you did them a favour with that sort of attitude.
Excuse me? Attitude? My life, my career, my responsibility. Life / career etc are not something that I am willing to have decided for me by others. If you call that ‘attitude’, fine - I call it owning my own life & career.Edited by pablo on Thursday 11th November 18:36
Simpo Two said:
Magnum 475 said:
pablo said:
Can you imagine if the RAF committed to give everyone who wanted one a flying role? Sounds like you did them a favour with that sort of attitude.
Excuse me? Attitude? My life, my career, my responsibility. Life / career etc are not something that I am willing to have decided for me by others. If you call that ‘attitude’, fine - I call it owning my own life & career.Edited by pablo on Thursday 11th November 18:36
Simpo Two said:
Hmm. If you apply for a job with a company, you have to do what they want. You can't just rock up at the RAF and demand to be fast jet pilot. Maybe they had plenty of pilots but not electronics boffs.
Daft statement. Maybe if you're planning on going in at the bottom and working your way up to Flying Officer, there just might not be the opportunity when you get there, and you'll likely be streamed into another specialism by then anyway. If you apply for direct entry and go to OASC, you tell them what roles you are interested in and based on your performance they may or may not offer you one of those roles. If you only tick pilot, and you pass all the tests for pilot, they may offer you that role. You don't have to accept anything.Many people go to the forces to become pilots because they want to be pilots, not because they want to be in the forces. It's a career option, one that needs to be sold both ways, and one where the Queen pays for all the training.
Based on lots of experience working with the military I’d say one in a hundred joined the RAF wanting to be a pilot, the rest wanted a good career and something different from the norm. They all got what they wanted. Not everyone wanders into the recruitment office dreaming of being Maverick.
As for attitude, yeah, walking in to a recruitment office and throwing ultimatums like I’m only going to join if I can be a pilot won’t get you much respect. There will be hundreds of applications for every aircrew role, why on earth would they choose you over anyone else without even seeing you in basic training and assessing your leadership. To be a Pilot, you first have to be suitable for the Armed Forces…
OP. Great article here by well respected Hawk instructor
https://www.fastjetperformance.com/blog/7-essentia...
As for attitude, yeah, walking in to a recruitment office and throwing ultimatums like I’m only going to join if I can be a pilot won’t get you much respect. There will be hundreds of applications for every aircrew role, why on earth would they choose you over anyone else without even seeing you in basic training and assessing your leadership. To be a Pilot, you first have to be suitable for the Armed Forces…
OP. Great article here by well respected Hawk instructor
https://www.fastjetperformance.com/blog/7-essentia...
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 11th November 20:21
In my case, I didn’t need to be ‘Maverick’. I’d have been quite happy flying C130s, or refuelling tankers, just so long as it was flying. Call it a lifelong obsession.
But, as described by a previous poster, this was very much a job application with no job description until after you signed up for several years. Maybe things have changed now, but the case at the time was very much one of, “You sign up then we tell you what you’re going to do.” That simply didn’t work for me, as I’m not willing to hand over that level of control over my life to someone else.
But, as described by a previous poster, this was very much a job application with no job description until after you signed up for several years. Maybe things have changed now, but the case at the time was very much one of, “You sign up then we tell you what you’re going to do.” That simply didn’t work for me, as I’m not willing to hand over that level of control over my life to someone else.
Magnum 475 said:
pablo said:
Can you imagine if the RAF committed to give everyone who wanted one a flying role? Sounds like you did them a favour with that sort of attitude.
Excuse me? Attitude? My life, my career, my responsibility. Life / career etc are not something that I am willing to have decided for me by others. If you call that ‘attitude’, fine - I call it owning my own life & career.Edited by pablo on Thursday 11th November 18:36
If you're thinking of a career (in this case with the RAF) but as you look further and further into it you're deciding it's not for you, then you're absolutely right to crack on and vote with your feet. I looked at the RAF too when I was younger, again for the flying role, however what I was really interested in was heavy transport. Fast jets and rotary didn't do it for me, and so I felt it best looking other avenues to get my feet off the ground. The military absolutely isn't for everyone, far better to realise that before you're inside than after.
You need a certain amount of luck in aviation, but to a large extent you make your own luck; it's the not RAF he's doing favours, more his own career path and lifestyle by being in control of his own decisions. To be honest, that's the sort of aptitude that makes a good pilot; not being backed into a corner by external forces that you don't want to be backed into.
Put a post in Jobs and Employment Matters for a wider audience.
I would recommend visiting pprune.org and spending time searching and reading - it is the online resource for all things aviation from training to job market, for pilots, engineers, ATC, civil and military and more. Everything is there, just read.
First and foremost consideration... can she pass a Class 1 medical? There may be a hidden issue that may bar her from holding one that she will want to know about before spending any more money. Without one, generally, you can't fly professionally. Costs about £600 for an initial.
What is her current level of education? RAF officer entry for aircrew requires GCSE and A-Levels at least, or equivalent (from a known list).
Funding is obviously a huge consideration. Broadly, there are a few routes to funding flight training.
- Join the RAF as an officer and you'll pay nothing.
- Join a civil integrated flight training course and you'll be on full-time training until you get all your required licences. This may or may not be a scheme mentored by an airline, but if somehow attached to an airline the competition will be obviously higher but there is a (not guaranteed) offer of a job at the end. Either way this course will cost circa £100k excluding living and accommodation costs for the duration. If you bag an airline job you'll most likely then pay for a type rating at about £30k, to learn to fly the aircraft that company operates. This is ball park money for a UK course, you can do this all cheaper abroad.
-Do a modular course - you have another job and pay for your flight training in your own time, organised yourself to your own discipline. It takes longer and requires more dedication I believe, but it's half the cost. The argument still rages over whether this way is as valuable to the airlines as the integrated courses. I know people who did it each way, they all have flying jobs. But I still maintain the integrated courses teach you to fly the airline way from day one.
The above is an extremely broad idea of what's involved. Read the pprune forum. Decide how dedicated to the idea she really is. You will need commitment, aptitude and lots of money.
I would recommend visiting pprune.org and spending time searching and reading - it is the online resource for all things aviation from training to job market, for pilots, engineers, ATC, civil and military and more. Everything is there, just read.
First and foremost consideration... can she pass a Class 1 medical? There may be a hidden issue that may bar her from holding one that she will want to know about before spending any more money. Without one, generally, you can't fly professionally. Costs about £600 for an initial.
What is her current level of education? RAF officer entry for aircrew requires GCSE and A-Levels at least, or equivalent (from a known list).
Funding is obviously a huge consideration. Broadly, there are a few routes to funding flight training.
- Join the RAF as an officer and you'll pay nothing.
- Join a civil integrated flight training course and you'll be on full-time training until you get all your required licences. This may or may not be a scheme mentored by an airline, but if somehow attached to an airline the competition will be obviously higher but there is a (not guaranteed) offer of a job at the end. Either way this course will cost circa £100k excluding living and accommodation costs for the duration. If you bag an airline job you'll most likely then pay for a type rating at about £30k, to learn to fly the aircraft that company operates. This is ball park money for a UK course, you can do this all cheaper abroad.
-Do a modular course - you have another job and pay for your flight training in your own time, organised yourself to your own discipline. It takes longer and requires more dedication I believe, but it's half the cost. The argument still rages over whether this way is as valuable to the airlines as the integrated courses. I know people who did it each way, they all have flying jobs. But I still maintain the integrated courses teach you to fly the airline way from day one.
The above is an extremely broad idea of what's involved. Read the pprune forum. Decide how dedicated to the idea she really is. You will need commitment, aptitude and lots of money.
Regarding University courses around aviation. University as a whole is a great experience for any young person regardless of course, and on one hand I would recommend it to anyone. On the other, it's another heap of cash that may not be in the best interest of your future career. Any engineering degree for example is pretty much a prerequisite to any career in that field, so you need one. (Yes yes, you could start as some kind of tech and train on the job...)
An aviation based degree will make you more attractive to an airline perhaps, when compared to someone else of similar aptitude without one you tick another box. But it's no guarantee of anything. You'll still pay all the money for the training.
Having a degree can open career doors on its own, of course. But only because it's a degree, and a aviation related one that's not a BEng/MEng might as well be any other degree when it comes to a non-aviation related career.
If you can afford an integrated course before a degree, I would do that. And I have a degree.
Funding... it's undeniably elitist. A secured loan on a property, savings and inheritance. There were few sponsorship opportunities available prior to the pandemic but these have pretty much dried up now and who knows when they will return, if at all. Be prepared to fund it yourself.
An aviation based degree will make you more attractive to an airline perhaps, when compared to someone else of similar aptitude without one you tick another box. But it's no guarantee of anything. You'll still pay all the money for the training.
Having a degree can open career doors on its own, of course. But only because it's a degree, and a aviation related one that's not a BEng/MEng might as well be any other degree when it comes to a non-aviation related career.
If you can afford an integrated course before a degree, I would do that. And I have a degree.
Funding... it's undeniably elitist. A secured loan on a property, savings and inheritance. There were few sponsorship opportunities available prior to the pandemic but these have pretty much dried up now and who knows when they will return, if at all. Be prepared to fund it yourself.
A few points to add to the above….
You won’t necessarily be pigeon holed in to an Engineering job in the RAF with an Electronics degree. I certainly wasn’t, and although they did try, I stood my ground and went for just pilot. Some 26 years and 5 odd thousand flying hours later, I’m still happy I made the right decision. Granted a decent score in the aptitude tests helped, but it proves you don’t have to roll over and just do what the RAF selection bods want you to do.
R44Flyer makes some very good points about the costs and pros and cons of military vs civilian aviation. Though whilst obviously you don’t pay for the training in the RAF, the way you’re paid as a pilot has changed in the last few years and it’s not as good as it was when I went through. Also, converting your military flying in to a tangible Civilian Licence isn’t free, it takes at least a year of stress and about £12 - £15k, all whilst you’re working quite hard on ops and exercises doing your day job. I had to do short course on a Diamond DA-42 to get my Instrument Rating which was a bit of a ball ache.
Finally, to the OP, what exactly does your step daughter want to do? If she’s off to university, I’d recommend her joining the University Air Squadron, she’ll get a taste of flying, of RAF life and it’s all free. Absolutely loved my time on the UAS and made me realise flying was for me.
You won’t necessarily be pigeon holed in to an Engineering job in the RAF with an Electronics degree. I certainly wasn’t, and although they did try, I stood my ground and went for just pilot. Some 26 years and 5 odd thousand flying hours later, I’m still happy I made the right decision. Granted a decent score in the aptitude tests helped, but it proves you don’t have to roll over and just do what the RAF selection bods want you to do.
R44Flyer makes some very good points about the costs and pros and cons of military vs civilian aviation. Though whilst obviously you don’t pay for the training in the RAF, the way you’re paid as a pilot has changed in the last few years and it’s not as good as it was when I went through. Also, converting your military flying in to a tangible Civilian Licence isn’t free, it takes at least a year of stress and about £12 - £15k, all whilst you’re working quite hard on ops and exercises doing your day job. I had to do short course on a Diamond DA-42 to get my Instrument Rating which was a bit of a ball ache.
Finally, to the OP, what exactly does your step daughter want to do? If she’s off to university, I’d recommend her joining the University Air Squadron, she’ll get a taste of flying, of RAF life and it’s all free. Absolutely loved my time on the UAS and made me realise flying was for me.
Forget military aviation, without a laser like focus and extreme fortune its not obtainable these days.
To be airline fodder just pony up the £110k to train at one of the three major schools. Its actually not a bad time to do so as we emerge from the crisis.
Try the pprune Wannabes forum. I created it in 1998.
To be airline fodder just pony up the £110k to train at one of the three major schools. Its actually not a bad time to do so as we emerge from the crisis.
Try the pprune Wannabes forum. I created it in 1998.
Magnum 475 said:
In my case, I didn’t need to be ‘Maverick’. I’d have been quite happy flying C130s, or refuelling tankers, just so long as it was flying. Call it a lifelong obsession.
But, as described by a previous poster, this was very much a job application with no job description until after you signed up for several years. Maybe things have changed now, but the case at the time was very much one of, “You sign up then we tell you what you’re going to do.” That simply didn’t work for me, as I’m not willing to hand over that level of control over my life to someone else.
That's not how it works know anyway. But, as described by a previous poster, this was very much a job application with no job description until after you signed up for several years. Maybe things have changed now, but the case at the time was very much one of, “You sign up then we tell you what you’re going to do.” That simply didn’t work for me, as I’m not willing to hand over that level of control over my life to someone else.
When I went through Engineering Officer selection that's what I applied for and likewise others applied to be a pilot.
There was obviously leeway within that, not everyone who wanted to be a fast jet pilot ended up doing that but assuming they were successful in selection they'd atleast be flying something and not randomly given an engineering job they didn't want.
Edited by ChocolateFrog on Friday 12th November 12:01
Honeywell said:
Forget military aviation, without a laser like focus and extreme fortune its not obtainable these days.
To be airline fodder just pony up the £110k to train at one of the three major schools. Its actually not a bad time to do so as we emerge from the crisis.
Try the pprune Wannabes forum. I created it in 1998.
It must have changed in the last 10 years then. To be airline fodder just pony up the £110k to train at one of the three major schools. Its actually not a bad time to do so as we emerge from the crisis.
Try the pprune Wannabes forum. I created it in 1998.
When I went through the interview process I randomly bumped into an old swimming club mate from school who was applying for Pilot at the same time. He told me he finished uni, didn't know what to do and saw an advert on TV, had no experience at in aviation or particular interest in the military.
Got the job and flies fast jets now, bumped into him at Leeming a few years ago, still enjoying it.
Siko said:
Best of luck to her - it's a tough industry to get into but if she really really really wants to do it - she'll get there
This is an important point.It’s not a career you just fall into, you have to really want it to make it and to get a decent job.
There’s not really any cheap routes into a flying career at the moment (apart from the forces) but the rewards are there if you go for it and are successful.
Be wary though that many forums and sites like pprune are full of people who are negative about becoming a pilot as a career, because they didn’t make it. The naysayers are rarely the ones who are doing the job.
Many of our young new pilots come from other airlines and have an ATPL through an approved course. Many airlines are now taking on new pilots with an MPL which is a reduced course and linked to that airline. We also get pilots who did another career for a while and then decided they really wanted to go for it and become a pilot. I always think they must have been really dedicated to go home to their partners etc and say they want to change career, take on loads of debt and have no guarantee of getting a job! I don’t know any pilots who left to do something else. Unless they were retiring early etc.
Some more information here.
https://www.pilotcareernews.com/mpl-or-atpl-which-...
Although things have been bad over the last year for the airlines, they’re improving rapidly now. Some in the U.K. are actually talking about recruiting next year. There’s also been lots of retirement due to the age demographics in most U.K. airlines and a lack of pilots coming into airlines from the forces due to the reduction in flying jobs there, so airlines will definitely be looking for people again soon. Being female will also help her get a job as airlines are keen to employ more women.
I know you want to help your step daughter with her career and you’re doing the right thing trying to gather information from a variety of sources but I’d also make sure it’s 100% what she wants, as there’s loads of people that have spent a lot of money on training and ended up giving up.
I wanted to be a pilot since I was a little boy, it’s all I wanted to do and love my job, most pilots I know are the same, the nature of the training and commitment required (often without any job lined up when you start) means that you just don’t meet people who didn’t really know what to do so they became pilots.
If you go the university route with a view to flying with the University Air Squadron, beware. I read of one UAS that would not accept engineering students because they considered that the course workload would prevent the student dedicating enough time to UAS activities. Then the RAF wonder why they struggle to attract enough engineers!
This was six years ago so hopefully things have changed: PPrune - UAS won't accept engineering students
This was six years ago so hopefully things have changed: PPrune - UAS won't accept engineering students
Edited by GliderRider on Friday 12th November 14:36
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