Discussion
Morning,
Im looking for a little advice, if possible.
I am a manager in a business and perform the day to day running function of a department. I report to a senior manager and have 5 staff who report to me. I have now been given another manager with the same job title, moving from the team i manage, to work beside me.
This has effectivly demoted me and removed my seniority/2nd in command position.
Am I expected to be happy about this and thank them for the loss of position, or is there a nice way I can explain my unhappiness at the treatment?
My pay structure has not been changed, but my control and status have.
Any advice appreciated.
Im looking for a little advice, if possible.
I am a manager in a business and perform the day to day running function of a department. I report to a senior manager and have 5 staff who report to me. I have now been given another manager with the same job title, moving from the team i manage, to work beside me.
This has effectivly demoted me and removed my seniority/2nd in command position.
Am I expected to be happy about this and thank them for the loss of position, or is there a nice way I can explain my unhappiness at the treatment?
My pay structure has not been changed, but my control and status have.
Any advice appreciated.
My work has not changed, nor my pay. I am not doing any less. What has happened is that my overall control has gone. Now the team will be able to go to someone else if they do not like my choice of answer to their questions. This removes my control over the outcomes and performance I monitor and that in turn pays my bonus structure.
In all fairness who is to say that your guidance/decision making is the correct/most opportune path to success?
Surely the 'new' system will see combined achievements of the team reflected in both you and your now-counterpart - how could they disaggregate performance otherwise and attribute success/failure - it wouldn't work
Not sure if its my reading of what's been written (or how its written) but the 'control element' sounds like it has gone to your head somewhat.
Surely the 'new' system will see combined achievements of the team reflected in both you and your now-counterpart - how could they disaggregate performance otherwise and attribute success/failure - it wouldn't work
Not sure if its my reading of what's been written (or how its written) but the 'control element' sounds like it has gone to your head somewhat.
x5tuu said:
In all fairness who is to say that your guidance/decision making is the correct/most opportune path to success?
Surely the 'new' system will see combined achievements of the team reflected in both you and your now-counterpart - how could they disaggregate performance otherwise and attribute success/failure - it wouldn't work
Not sure if its my reading of what's been written (or how its written) but the 'control element' sounds like it has gone to your head somewhat.
The control element has not gone to my head, it is a role I have been doing very succesfully for 20+ years. With the team I have, controlling them is needed. The potential to have them pulled in 2 directions will not be productive. Football teams, ships etc, have 1 captain for a reason.Surely the 'new' system will see combined achievements of the team reflected in both you and your now-counterpart - how could they disaggregate performance otherwise and attribute success/failure - it wouldn't work
Not sure if its my reading of what's been written (or how its written) but the 'control element' sounds like it has gone to your head somewhat.
Of course on a personal level, my nose has been put out of joint and it is upsetting. The team have been performing above required levels consistantly for many years, exceeding budget and expectation.
wargriff said:
My pay structure has not been changed, but my control and status have.
But your ability to negotiate future pay increases has changed significantly. Up to now you could claim credit for any improvement in your unit's efficiency/profit what ever you're judged by. Obviously you'd ask for that to be recognised in your pay. Now there's another guy with equal authority so he can claim the same credit. No idea how that will play out.
In a previous career it was normal practice to appoint 2 guys as co head of a unit on the expectation that 1 guy will emerge as the head and the other guy will fall by the wayside. Do you think that's what your employer is aiming to do here?
If your terms and conditions and your pay and benefits have not changed then you have not been demoted. The employer has transferred some of your responsibilities to someone else. You have the right to ask them why they have done this and enquire how things are expected to work under the new arrangements and thats about it. If the change has not meant a change to your contract of employment then you are still employed as a manager. If you dont like it then maybe its time to start looking for another role.
craigjm said:
If your terms and conditions and your pay and benefits have not changed then you have not been demoted. The employer has transferred some of your responsibilities to someone else. You have the right to ask them why they have done this and enquire how things are expected to work under the new arrangements and thats about it. If the change has not meant a change to your contract of employment then you are still employed as a manager. If you dont like it then maybe its time to start looking for another role.
Sadly, I think this will be the outcome.The issue would be if the OP does change jobs would he have a claim for constructive dismissal?
The scope of his role has clearly changed. He was head now he's co-head, this is clearly going to impact his future prospects with that employer. In the first place he'd need to get a sense of the employer's reasoning.
Obviously he'd need legal advice but I can (possibly) see a constructive dismissal claim here.
The scope of his role has clearly changed. He was head now he's co-head, this is clearly going to impact his future prospects with that employer. In the first place he'd need to get a sense of the employer's reasoning.
Obviously he'd need legal advice but I can (possibly) see a constructive dismissal claim here.
wargriff said:
craigjm said:
If your terms and conditions and your pay and benefits have not changed then you have not been demoted. The employer has transferred some of your responsibilities to someone else. You have the right to ask them why they have done this and enquire how things are expected to work under the new arrangements and thats about it. If the change has not meant a change to your contract of employment then you are still employed as a manager. If you dont like it then maybe its time to start looking for another role.
Sadly, I think this will be the outcome.craigjm said:
It is also a big red flag to take a serious close look at your performance over recent times and identify any reasons why they may have taken this action. A large number of employers would rather do something like this than tackle perceived performance issues. It's easy for us to think "well ive been working just fine" when in reality that may not be the case. It sounds like you have been in the role a long time. For your own future employability and performance I would be doing that analysis honestly with myself and also asking your immediate manager if there have been any performance concerns.
This was the first area I looked into. All the KPI's I am responsible for have been exceeded every month/quarter for the last 3 years. Even during covid disruption. We are ahead of annual budget. My team function very well with no issues and no HR issues for anyone. I have asked the question of my manager and been told via email that my performance is absolutely fine. wargriff said:
craigjm said:
It is also a big red flag to take a serious close look at your performance over recent times and identify any reasons why they may have taken this action. A large number of employers would rather do something like this than tackle perceived performance issues. It's easy for us to think "well ive been working just fine" when in reality that may not be the case. It sounds like you have been in the role a long time. For your own future employability and performance I would be doing that analysis honestly with myself and also asking your immediate manager if there have been any performance concerns.
This was the first area I looked into. All the KPI's I am responsible for have been exceeded every month/quarter for the last 3 years. Even during covid disruption. We are ahead of annual budget. My team function very well with no issues and no HR issues for anyone. I have asked the question of my manager and been told via email that my performance is absolutely fine. craigjm said:
wargriff said:
craigjm said:
It is also a big red flag to take a serious close look at your performance over recent times and identify any reasons why they may have taken this action. A large number of employers would rather do something like this than tackle perceived performance issues. It's easy for us to think "well ive been working just fine" when in reality that may not be the case. It sounds like you have been in the role a long time. For your own future employability and performance I would be doing that analysis honestly with myself and also asking your immediate manager if there have been any performance concerns.
This was the first area I looked into. All the KPI's I am responsible for have been exceeded every month/quarter for the last 3 years. Even during covid disruption. We are ahead of annual budget. My team function very well with no issues and no HR issues for anyone. I have asked the question of my manager and been told via email that my performance is absolutely fine. As a rule people don't change things they are happy with. Change only comes when people want improvement. You may be hitting KPI's, but is that enough for them?
OP, a couple of questions
What is the new guys title? If you've been doing this 20 years, you must have seniority?
Have you been in this role at this company for 20 years?
wargriff said:
My work has not changed, nor my pay. I am not doing any less. What has happened is that my overall control has gone. Now the team will be able to go to someone else if they do not like my choice of answer to their questions. This removes my control over the outcomes and performance I monitor and that in turn pays my bonus structure.
What's the fixation with "control"Accountability and responsibility are far more important
IP I manage multiple depots within the oil industry. Recently a family member has been made the operations manager, effectively making him my boss and before I reported to the board of directors. There was no opportunity given to anyone else to apply, and despite multiple people having the capabilities to do this role, it's just been fed on a spoon.
He will probably be a director because of who he is and it probably won't take long either.
Strictly speaking, I now have an additional layer of management that didn't exist before. I've banked this issue for if and when I may need it in the future. And the most I can achieve is a winge.
If I didn't earn what I do, you know the PH obligatory 6 million a week, then I'd fish for a new job. But I'm staying put.
Like it or lump it my friend.
He will probably be a director because of who he is and it probably won't take long either.
Strictly speaking, I now have an additional layer of management that didn't exist before. I've banked this issue for if and when I may need it in the future. And the most I can achieve is a winge.
If I didn't earn what I do, you know the PH obligatory 6 million a week, then I'd fish for a new job. But I'm staying put.
Like it or lump it my friend.
mat205125 said:
wargriff said:
My work has not changed, nor my pay. I am not doing any less. What has happened is that my overall control has gone. Now the team will be able to go to someone else if they do not like my choice of answer to their questions. This removes my control over the outcomes and performance I monitor and that in turn pays my bonus structure.
What's the fixation with "control"Accountability and responsibility are far more important
If clearly feels that if he can’t control and direct the people under him, they won’t meet targets, and he won’t get his bonus.
(I am not suggesting this has been a good way for the OP’s department to operate)
It is odd that you believe that you have control of your team and yet one of those team has moved to work besides you seemingly without your knowledge.
In my experience when a situation like this has happened either the current post holder has been promoted or moves to a different area of the business, or it is the first stage in them being prepped to be exited from the business.
It could be something as minor as a new senior manager or management team who just don't like you, or business direction has changed and you are not perceived as the right person to take that forward. 20 years in the role is a red flag as well. Might be worth polishing up your cv, it is likely the business has a plan in mind here and they will get what they want.
In my experience when a situation like this has happened either the current post holder has been promoted or moves to a different area of the business, or it is the first stage in them being prepped to be exited from the business.
It could be something as minor as a new senior manager or management team who just don't like you, or business direction has changed and you are not perceived as the right person to take that forward. 20 years in the role is a red flag as well. Might be worth polishing up your cv, it is likely the business has a plan in mind here and they will get what they want.
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