Is it time to start looking elsewhere?
Discussion
I work for a large multinational, I do actually enjoy what I do for the most part however recently poor management of the section where I work has lead me to become frustrated.
My current salary is fair, with the potential to earn 50% more through 'away jobs', shift and overtime. I am considered an 'engineer'.
We have been struggling with experience in the section for a couple years, mainly due to poor succession planning and over reliance on the staff that are already there. A couple of whom have got fed up and left/retired at short notice.
Recently another section has been thinning their staffing levels, so we received a 'senior engineer', who has zero system knowledge and doesn't know how we work paperwork wise. I raised my concerns, about my ability for progression having been in my current role for 8 years, and I was assured a role would be opening up for me. 3 months down the road there is no change, I have seen no structured plan for the section, I am still picking up after the senior engineer (who is actually a decent bloke, just not experienced).
Basically I feel totally mugged off. The problem being is my earning potential, do I sacrifice around 15k and go for 'promotion' elsewhere, into a job I may not like or shut up and take it on the chin? I am totally torn. It is possible to go and talk to my senior management/director, but I don't want to come across like a whiney b
h.
My current salary is fair, with the potential to earn 50% more through 'away jobs', shift and overtime. I am considered an 'engineer'.
We have been struggling with experience in the section for a couple years, mainly due to poor succession planning and over reliance on the staff that are already there. A couple of whom have got fed up and left/retired at short notice.
Recently another section has been thinning their staffing levels, so we received a 'senior engineer', who has zero system knowledge and doesn't know how we work paperwork wise. I raised my concerns, about my ability for progression having been in my current role for 8 years, and I was assured a role would be opening up for me. 3 months down the road there is no change, I have seen no structured plan for the section, I am still picking up after the senior engineer (who is actually a decent bloke, just not experienced).
Basically I feel totally mugged off. The problem being is my earning potential, do I sacrifice around 15k and go for 'promotion' elsewhere, into a job I may not like or shut up and take it on the chin? I am totally torn. It is possible to go and talk to my senior management/director, but I don't want to come across like a whiney b
h.Seeking progression is not being 'whiney'
It's being ambitious - the company should welcome your desire to progress and seek a bigger role. Good help is hard to find and all that.
But you need to approach it in the right way. Be structured, present your experience, what qualities you have to make you suitable for the next level, what time/training you have invested into getting the skills for the next role above. Basically, sell yourself.
I'm sure this isn't you, but too many people come to me looking for progression basically on the basis of time served or the fact that they want the next role, when they haven't actually invested themselves into getting the skills for it.
Saying "the company haven't given me xyz or trained me in abc" doesn't cut it. You want it, you go and make it happen.
I'm sure you have done all these things. If, when you've made your case, the company come back to you positively, you need to set a timeline. This is not a threat, it's about not being strung along. This timeline needs to be reasonable. It requires honesty from both sides - be open about that; if the company can't see a role opening for you, ask them to be honest and tell you so you can make choices accordingly.
If you're still getting fobbed off, time to start looking elsewhere. Jam tomorrow only goes so far.
Good luck
It's being ambitious - the company should welcome your desire to progress and seek a bigger role. Good help is hard to find and all that.
But you need to approach it in the right way. Be structured, present your experience, what qualities you have to make you suitable for the next level, what time/training you have invested into getting the skills for the next role above. Basically, sell yourself.
I'm sure this isn't you, but too many people come to me looking for progression basically on the basis of time served or the fact that they want the next role, when they haven't actually invested themselves into getting the skills for it.
Saying "the company haven't given me xyz or trained me in abc" doesn't cut it. You want it, you go and make it happen.
I'm sure you have done all these things. If, when you've made your case, the company come back to you positively, you need to set a timeline. This is not a threat, it's about not being strung along. This timeline needs to be reasonable. It requires honesty from both sides - be open about that; if the company can't see a role opening for you, ask them to be honest and tell you so you can make choices accordingly.
If you're still getting fobbed off, time to start looking elsewhere. Jam tomorrow only goes so far.
Good luck
Thanks for your considered response, its' definitely food for thought and a basis to work from! I wouldn't be so annoyed if I was presented with a plan, to outline where they see the what roles are required within a section over the next few years. Which seems to be the main issue....there is no plan, constant fire fighting and reactive management. Jobs should be filled by the best candidate, which may or may not be me, but I atleast want the opportunity to put myself forward.
I went out and did a BEng, again I am slightly aggrieved about, as all of my peers had the full cost covered, yet I had to pay half of mine (due to training budget cuts at the time). There is training I have been pushing for since 2018, the lack of investment (in particular a week Calibration course), has resulted in major lack of capability - only 2 people are qualified to calibrate certain items of equipment which again leaves us majorly short. I have 11 courses I have identified to be worth while for my role which have been on my pdr for years. I have only done 2 courses to date, both pretty basic (one being a jolly to the US). Yet am considered an SME by the section and the customer (often get phone calls to offer advice for other projects) on much of the stuff we work on, purely through experience gained.
I went out and did a BEng, again I am slightly aggrieved about, as all of my peers had the full cost covered, yet I had to pay half of mine (due to training budget cuts at the time). There is training I have been pushing for since 2018, the lack of investment (in particular a week Calibration course), has resulted in major lack of capability - only 2 people are qualified to calibrate certain items of equipment which again leaves us majorly short. I have 11 courses I have identified to be worth while for my role which have been on my pdr for years. I have only done 2 courses to date, both pretty basic (one being a jolly to the US). Yet am considered an SME by the section and the customer (often get phone calls to offer advice for other projects) on much of the stuff we work on, purely through experience gained.
Edited by Rob_125 on Thursday 21st October 10:38
Good advice already in terms of how to go about getting a promotion. I’m going to approach it from a different angle - why do you want a promotion? Money, or recognition? If they paid you the same with a better title, would you be happy? I ask as some would, some wouldn’t. For me, I don’t care what the title is, as long as I’m paid what I’m worth and I’m progressing.
So - you feel you’ve stalled. What next? I’d test the market - you feel you can make more elsewhere, apply for some jobs and see if it’s true. Even apply for the next level up, see if you get it. This will tell you two things:
1. Are you really undervalued, or is your pay in line with the market, and
2. Whether it’s easy or hard to get a new job.
The answer to 1 sets up your negotiation position with your company. “I like working here, I’d like to progress, but it seems I can be paid £x more elsewhere and I’m struggling to ignore that” is the sort of conversation to have, and you’ll know it’s true because you’ve tested the market. You’re also in a better negotiating position, because if they don’t come around to your way of thinking you know you have other options.
The answer to 2 tells you whether you need to worry about moving to a new firm. If it’s hard to get another job, you might get “stuck” there if the new place sucks. If it’s easy, well - you’ve already updated your CV and sharpened up your interview skills to get the new job, so you’re well placed to move on.
A combination of the above will allow you to work out what you want to do. If finding a new job is hard work and stressful (and it might be) then that is also valuable information - you might decide that your current situation isn’t so bad after all.
I would add that if your company have a fairly inflexible pay and promotion cycle (yearly, say) and you’re trying this off cycle then it’s going to be harder. The ideal timing is 2-3 months before the decision for promotions and pay rises is taken.
So - you feel you’ve stalled. What next? I’d test the market - you feel you can make more elsewhere, apply for some jobs and see if it’s true. Even apply for the next level up, see if you get it. This will tell you two things:
1. Are you really undervalued, or is your pay in line with the market, and
2. Whether it’s easy or hard to get a new job.
The answer to 1 sets up your negotiation position with your company. “I like working here, I’d like to progress, but it seems I can be paid £x more elsewhere and I’m struggling to ignore that” is the sort of conversation to have, and you’ll know it’s true because you’ve tested the market. You’re also in a better negotiating position, because if they don’t come around to your way of thinking you know you have other options.
The answer to 2 tells you whether you need to worry about moving to a new firm. If it’s hard to get another job, you might get “stuck” there if the new place sucks. If it’s easy, well - you’ve already updated your CV and sharpened up your interview skills to get the new job, so you’re well placed to move on.
A combination of the above will allow you to work out what you want to do. If finding a new job is hard work and stressful (and it might be) then that is also valuable information - you might decide that your current situation isn’t so bad after all.
I would add that if your company have a fairly inflexible pay and promotion cycle (yearly, say) and you’re trying this off cycle then it’s going to be harder. The ideal timing is 2-3 months before the decision for promotions and pay rises is taken.
Update.
So there have been many words spoken and (empty) promises made. A civil service job has come up, doing a very similar role, but as the customer. In my current role I could earn up to 60k if I flog myself and say do a months working away from home a year too. The job I have been offered comes in at 55k (with the large pension contribution taken into account)
When my work place found out I had an interview I was offered a temporary senior role. (6 months min at +6%). Interview came around, basically told I aced it, zero comments for improvement offered top of band. This would be a massive jump having only ever worked for one firm. But I think this goes deeper than money. I can be pessimist, and think the grass isn't always green, however the other half of me thinks I am good at what I do and I could always get a job back in the current firm if things don't work out, so long as I don't leave on bad terms.
Need to decide this week really. Apologies for my ramblings!
So there have been many words spoken and (empty) promises made. A civil service job has come up, doing a very similar role, but as the customer. In my current role I could earn up to 60k if I flog myself and say do a months working away from home a year too. The job I have been offered comes in at 55k (with the large pension contribution taken into account)
When my work place found out I had an interview I was offered a temporary senior role. (6 months min at +6%). Interview came around, basically told I aced it, zero comments for improvement offered top of band. This would be a massive jump having only ever worked for one firm. But I think this goes deeper than money. I can be pessimist, and think the grass isn't always green, however the other half of me thinks I am good at what I do and I could always get a job back in the current firm if things don't work out, so long as I don't leave on bad terms.
Need to decide this week really. Apologies for my ramblings!
Excellent news, and well done. I’d say move - fear of the unknown is a real thing, and shouldn’t be underestimated. In a new job, some things will inevitably be worse than where you currently are. However, some things are bound to be better.
As you’ve found that you can get a job reasonably easily, and your other half is supportive, I’d say believe in yourself and leave for something new. As your other half says, you may well be able to return to your old place if you leave on good terms. I’d say you’d be able to find a job elsewhere as well, so take the chance and see how it works out.
As you’ve found that you can get a job reasonably easily, and your other half is supportive, I’d say believe in yourself and leave for something new. As your other half says, you may well be able to return to your old place if you leave on good terms. I’d say you’d be able to find a job elsewhere as well, so take the chance and see how it works out.
Congratulations, realistically what’s the worse that could happen?
You move and find the position, coworkers or progression options aren’t to your liking and you have a salary bump and more experience to add to your cv and look elsewhere
Or stay where you are possibly being marked as the one who got a upgrade through “managing” their career and wondering what might have been.
You move and find the position, coworkers or progression options aren’t to your liking and you have a salary bump and more experience to add to your cv and look elsewhere
Or stay where you are possibly being marked as the one who got a upgrade through “managing” their career and wondering what might have been.
If they don't offer you the role permanently I'd say that tells you enough. Put another way, did the manager you've been carrying come in on a temporary promotion? If not, IMO they're just trying to stop you getting the other job, not trying to keep you and keep you promoted.
One other thought though.
I've been in the same situation as you in the past, top of my game and well regarded, the go-to guy. Manager leaves, I'm not even spoken to about it. New manager comes in and I carry him for best part of a year. Get quite aggrieved it must be said. However. After that year, the new manager is up to speed and knows what we all do. He then really takes on the running of the department and improves it in many ways that I wouldn't have thought of, or had the skills to get through the chain of command to approval.
Turns out they were right not to even talk to me about promotion (although being told where I need to improve would have stopped me being so pissed off about it all...)
Sometimes they promote the potential. And just because you're excelling at what you do, it doesn't always mean you'll excel in the next position up. Not saying that's the case here, but if they never saw the potential in you during your 8 years to date, I'm not convinced they will be persuaded in the next 6 months that they were wrong.
One other thought though.
I've been in the same situation as you in the past, top of my game and well regarded, the go-to guy. Manager leaves, I'm not even spoken to about it. New manager comes in and I carry him for best part of a year. Get quite aggrieved it must be said. However. After that year, the new manager is up to speed and knows what we all do. He then really takes on the running of the department and improves it in many ways that I wouldn't have thought of, or had the skills to get through the chain of command to approval.
Turns out they were right not to even talk to me about promotion (although being told where I need to improve would have stopped me being so pissed off about it all...)
Sometimes they promote the potential. And just because you're excelling at what you do, it doesn't always mean you'll excel in the next position up. Not saying that's the case here, but if they never saw the potential in you during your 8 years to date, I'm not convinced they will be persuaded in the next 6 months that they were wrong.
Thanks all. I am going to try and leave on good terms with everyone. I have a phone call with a group director today, just to clarify my position.
As far as not getting promotion in 8 years, my job is highly technical, the structure is dead mans shoes to an extent. However lack of experience across the board, means that extra pressure is being placed on those with experience. There is no realisation to plan for the future. I have been asking to see a plan of attack for the past 6 months. This hasn't happened. Even the apprentice has got a new job and a colleague has just dropped down to 3 days a week. I had a message yesturday from my principle engineer admitting she understands why I have lost confidence in the senior management. Rumour has it she is looking for a new position after only 2 years, due to lack of support.
My immediate boss has already muted the fact if I leave then he will look elsewhere for work (probably internally). It really is a shame, as the work is good, as are most of the people. The new job is working for a different organisation/company but very much in the same sector on the same worksite.
As far as not getting promotion in 8 years, my job is highly technical, the structure is dead mans shoes to an extent. However lack of experience across the board, means that extra pressure is being placed on those with experience. There is no realisation to plan for the future. I have been asking to see a plan of attack for the past 6 months. This hasn't happened. Even the apprentice has got a new job and a colleague has just dropped down to 3 days a week. I had a message yesturday from my principle engineer admitting she understands why I have lost confidence in the senior management. Rumour has it she is looking for a new position after only 2 years, due to lack of support.
My immediate boss has already muted the fact if I leave then he will look elsewhere for work (probably internally). It really is a shame, as the work is good, as are most of the people. The new job is working for a different organisation/company but very much in the same sector on the same worksite.
Edited by Rob_125 on Wednesday 17th November 09:38
Update, I have officially accepted.
It's been a tough week. Phone calls with directors trying to convince me to stay/explaining loads of career options. I had to explain I love what I do, but respectfully don't agree with direction we have taken.
My immediate manager, notified his intentions to actively look elsewhere (we mutually support each other loads, when he's out I just pick up the reigns). This led to his manager being in tears yesturday, I think through stress of impending doom. (And have also heard she is now actively looking elsewhere).
It is a really unfortunate situation, but my main issue was the lack of depth in the department (lack of vision) and too much reliance on us two. Most people I have spoken to, have told me it's a great decision which I just have to try, and that I could always come back without blinking.
I keep coming over with waves of guilt and feel sick to the stomach. But equally I keep having to remind myself I have given plenty opportunity for change and have been vocal about my concerns.
It's been a tough week. Phone calls with directors trying to convince me to stay/explaining loads of career options. I had to explain I love what I do, but respectfully don't agree with direction we have taken.
My immediate manager, notified his intentions to actively look elsewhere (we mutually support each other loads, when he's out I just pick up the reigns). This led to his manager being in tears yesturday, I think through stress of impending doom. (And have also heard she is now actively looking elsewhere).
It is a really unfortunate situation, but my main issue was the lack of depth in the department (lack of vision) and too much reliance on us two. Most people I have spoken to, have told me it's a great decision which I just have to try, and that I could always come back without blinking.
I keep coming over with waves of guilt and feel sick to the stomach. But equally I keep having to remind myself I have given plenty opportunity for change and have been vocal about my concerns.
You said in your opening post that you work for a multinational so this isn’t a small family business that hasn’t got the management skills or structure to help staff develop.
As someone said above - they’d bin you in a moment if they were downsizing. It’s up to your boss and your boss’s boss to do the right thing for themselves.
In different circumstances you might be right to feel guilty but your employer has been mugging you off for years and now it’s going to bite them.
Are they owned by private equity or a hedge fund?
Best of luck. By Easter you’ll wonder why you didn’t move sooner.
As someone said above - they’d bin you in a moment if they were downsizing. It’s up to your boss and your boss’s boss to do the right thing for themselves.
In different circumstances you might be right to feel guilty but your employer has been mugging you off for years and now it’s going to bite them.
Are they owned by private equity or a hedge fund?
Best of luck. By Easter you’ll wonder why you didn’t move sooner.
CoupeKid said:
You said in your opening post that you work for a multinational so this isn’t a small family business that hasn’t got the management skills or structure to help staff develop.
As someone said above - they’d bin you in a moment if they were downsizing. It’s up to your boss and your boss’s boss to do the right thing for themselves.
In different circumstances you might be right to feel guilty but your employer has been mugging you off for years and now it’s going to bite them.
Are they owned by private equity or a hedge fund?
Best of luck. By Easter you’ll wonder why you didn’t move sooner.
The company is very graduate focused, rather than growing talent from the bottom up. Despite achieving a BEng qualification, mere mortals don't recieve the same levels of support and mentoring, especially when you are in a core money earning department. I am not sure on ownership structure but they are a ftse 250 firm.As someone said above - they’d bin you in a moment if they were downsizing. It’s up to your boss and your boss’s boss to do the right thing for themselves.
In different circumstances you might be right to feel guilty but your employer has been mugging you off for years and now it’s going to bite them.
Are they owned by private equity or a hedge fund?
Best of luck. By Easter you’ll wonder why you didn’t move sooner.
There are some great people and the work can also be super varied and interesting, however things have run their course. As I explained to the director, some people are being looked after, which i have zero issue with. But as no one is looking after me, I have to look after myself.
Everyone I have spoken to on the coal face have reaffirmed its a good step, are pleased for me and totally understand my actions. Due to various complexities it may be a couple of months before I transfer over, so I intend to prove myself in the current firm through integrity, and leave on good terms.
It's strange, now I have control of my own destiny I feel so much happier and confident already. Thanks everyone for your kind words.
Sorry I'm late coming to this thread, but pleased to see the outcome for you. I've only started reading this section of PH recently, despite being on here for years and it's great to see how others deal with their work situations and the advice given too.
I'll probably start my own thread soon, but in the meantime all the best in your new job and hopefully you won't need to worry about going back, though good not to have burnt your bridges.
I'll probably start my own thread soon, but in the meantime all the best in your new job and hopefully you won't need to worry about going back, though good not to have burnt your bridges.
Update so far.
The recruitment process for the new firm is slowww, I now have a start date for the beginning of May, although havn't seen a contract yet.
Off the back of announcing I had been offered new employment before christmas, my current firm pretty rapidly created a temporary role and gave me temporary promotion. That and other payrises mean I have seen nearly a 10% pay rise since the start of the year.
This extended time period has given my current employer the opportunity to 'create' a new senior role (as the original role is filled by the less experienced member). Interview on Monday.
Although the salary will still be circa 2% less than the one offered by the new firm, I can earn much more with various allowances/overtime/shift work.
Due to a bit of working away and leave I've got booked in I took great delight in informing my current manager (we do get on well), as it stands I only have around 8 days left in office, before I potentially leave....
If I do get the perminant job offered, would it be cheeky to ask for my current firm to match the salary of the other job?
The recruitment process for the new firm is slowww, I now have a start date for the beginning of May, although havn't seen a contract yet.
Off the back of announcing I had been offered new employment before christmas, my current firm pretty rapidly created a temporary role and gave me temporary promotion. That and other payrises mean I have seen nearly a 10% pay rise since the start of the year.
This extended time period has given my current employer the opportunity to 'create' a new senior role (as the original role is filled by the less experienced member). Interview on Monday.
Although the salary will still be circa 2% less than the one offered by the new firm, I can earn much more with various allowances/overtime/shift work.
Due to a bit of working away and leave I've got booked in I took great delight in informing my current manager (we do get on well), as it stands I only have around 8 days left in office, before I potentially leave....
If I do get the perminant job offered, would it be cheeky to ask for my current firm to match the salary of the other job?
It is likely I'd stay anyway, if they offer me the job. The promotion in the current firm still gives me scope to earn more in the band anyway (circa 8%), whereas the other job offered me top of band, so no scope to increase my wage other than promotion out of that role.
Given the uncertainty with cost of living I'd steer to stay with the current firm, but we shall see.
Given the uncertainty with cost of living I'd steer to stay with the current firm, but we shall see.
Rob, I've made the same move as you i think to the same company you are going to. Presume its in plymouth? From the description it looks like it.
I'm in engineering too. I was at a family run smaller place and was undervalued and overworked. Now i've moved (been there 15 months now) and i love the place. I've cut my hours back, only work tues, weds, thurs and I feel like ive stepped into a different world. Work is relaxed, quality is valued far above quantity. There is virtually no pressure at my level (senior engineer).
The previous place you are in i cant tell which company it is, but it sounds like most commercial engineering firms that are pushing you all the time and always want more and more for less and less money.
Welcome to pm me to discuss further if you want.
I'm in engineering too. I was at a family run smaller place and was undervalued and overworked. Now i've moved (been there 15 months now) and i love the place. I've cut my hours back, only work tues, weds, thurs and I feel like ive stepped into a different world. Work is relaxed, quality is valued far above quantity. There is virtually no pressure at my level (senior engineer).
The previous place you are in i cant tell which company it is, but it sounds like most commercial engineering firms that are pushing you all the time and always want more and more for less and less money.
Welcome to pm me to discuss further if you want.
Sorry didn't see the post above!
Summary, work for a large private firm. After 8 years in role, the higher management slid a more senior staff member over, temporary, during a period of high work load.
It was clear temporary was actually perminant. Blocking any potential progression. I declared my concerns about the situation over a period of 6 months. (Its a bit crap molly cuddling someone who is more senior for over 6 months, and for them to be blocking you). Despite the chap being a really nice bloke.
Nothing happened. I have very specific experience in a very niche sector (although skills are very transferable). I declared I would look elsewhere for work if there was no defined route for me. Within two weeks I got a job with the firms customer, in a design authority, offered top of band.
st hit the fan.
Unfortunately the organisation I was offered a job with, their recruitment process isn't fast. In this period, my current firm actually created a job role for me to apply for.
Promotion was offered, as well as other payrises, my salary increased maybe 10%. Although less than with the other organisation, earning potential with the current firm is higher, and the work is more hands on. So I decided to stay.
If the other organisation had recruited me more quickly I would have definitely left, however I am at a stage where the extra finances are needed, especially with impending inflation.
Summary, work for a large private firm. After 8 years in role, the higher management slid a more senior staff member over, temporary, during a period of high work load.
It was clear temporary was actually perminant. Blocking any potential progression. I declared my concerns about the situation over a period of 6 months. (Its a bit crap molly cuddling someone who is more senior for over 6 months, and for them to be blocking you). Despite the chap being a really nice bloke.
Nothing happened. I have very specific experience in a very niche sector (although skills are very transferable). I declared I would look elsewhere for work if there was no defined route for me. Within two weeks I got a job with the firms customer, in a design authority, offered top of band.
s
t hit the fan.Unfortunately the organisation I was offered a job with, their recruitment process isn't fast. In this period, my current firm actually created a job role for me to apply for.
Promotion was offered, as well as other payrises, my salary increased maybe 10%. Although less than with the other organisation, earning potential with the current firm is higher, and the work is more hands on. So I decided to stay.
If the other organisation had recruited me more quickly I would have definitely left, however I am at a stage where the extra finances are needed, especially with impending inflation.
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