EV only manufacturers vs EV infrastructure across the globe
Discussion
On another thread on here there was a quote form a guy from Italy who said that EV uptake for them was way behind the UK and other leading countries and that even switching to automatic cars was a bit contentious!
Given that Italy are unlikely to be the only country with poor infrastructure/resistance to EVs, I do wonder, when I hear all these manufacturers that are going ‘EV only’, that they are going to find that there just isn’t enough chargers/charging infrastructure in place and that sales slow hugely/dry up.
Given that Italy are unlikely to be the only country with poor infrastructure/resistance to EVs, I do wonder, when I hear all these manufacturers that are going ‘EV only’, that they are going to find that there just isn’t enough chargers/charging infrastructure in place and that sales slow hugely/dry up.
The poster on the thread is talking anecdotally, data below shows Italy's market share for BEV doubling between 2020 and 2021 year to date to 3.4%:
https://insideevs.com/news/525738/italy-ev-market-...
All western markets and most Asian Markets are the same with most seeing 100%-200% growth. Even the US BEV is now 3% and volumes are doubling annually Even if there are some markets without the infrastructure (South America, Eastern Europe, Middle East) if China, US and Europe are adopting they are bigger than all the others combined.
https://insideevs.com/news/525738/italy-ev-market-...
All western markets and most Asian Markets are the same with most seeing 100%-200% growth. Even the US BEV is now 3% and volumes are doubling annually Even if there are some markets without the infrastructure (South America, Eastern Europe, Middle East) if China, US and Europe are adopting they are bigger than all the others combined.
Some pretty shocking electrical supply infrastructure in other countries.
One EV plugged into that and we have a meltdown.
Ours in the UK is good and safe as a baseline starting point, and it's 240V which gives us a bit more power to play with.
Of course even huge chunks of our setup will require upgrading to cope with millions of EV's.
One EV plugged into that and we have a meltdown.
Ours in the UK is good and safe as a baseline starting point, and it's 240V which gives us a bit more power to play with.
Of course even huge chunks of our setup will require upgrading to cope with millions of EV's.
I don’t really understand how public charging will work because of blocking. Ie you hook you car up and go shopping in a shopping centre. They could have what looks like a good facility with 8 lovely chargers in a row - well once they’re all blocked as people arrive and go shopping you’re knackered?
So not too far in the future you’re going to need very large proportions of shopping centre and supermarket etc spaces to be charging stations? Which is mega expensive and we know (if they do have a large number) their use will on average then be low (as not used at night or slow days etc), and no company is going to want to spend any money in an under-utilised item. So they won’t install them, so there will be blocking problems.
Sounds grim
So not too far in the future you’re going to need very large proportions of shopping centre and supermarket etc spaces to be charging stations? Which is mega expensive and we know (if they do have a large number) their use will on average then be low (as not used at night or slow days etc), and no company is going to want to spend any money in an under-utilised item. So they won’t install them, so there will be blocking problems.
Sounds grim
CoolHands said:
I don’t really understand how public charging will work because of blocking. Ie you hook you car up and go shopping in a shop centre. They could have what looks like a good facility with 8 lovely chargers in a row - well once they’re all blocked as people arrive and go shopping you’re knackered?
So not too far in the future you’re going to need bhp ery large proportions of shopping centre and supermarket etc spaces to be charging stations? Which is mega expensive and we know (if they do have a large number) their use will on average then be low (as not used at night or slow days etc), and no company is going to want to spend any money in an under-utilised item. So they won’t install them, so there will be blocking problems.
Sounds grim
As the uptake of EV’s increases supermarkets, shopping centres, pubs, restaurants, anywhere else with a car park will start to install more destination chargers. Eventually every car park space will have it’s own charger.So not too far in the future you’re going to need bhp ery large proportions of shopping centre and supermarket etc spaces to be charging stations? Which is mega expensive and we know (if they do have a large number) their use will on average then be low (as not used at night or slow days etc), and no company is going to want to spend any money in an under-utilised item. So they won’t install them, so there will be blocking problems.
Sounds grim
These will be slow charging, so cost less to install and owners will top up their cars wherever they go. Having a home charger will be a convenience, rather than essential.
SDK said:
CoolHands said:
I don’t really understand how public charging will work because of blocking. Ie you hook you car up and go shopping in a shop centre. They could have what looks like a good facility with 8 lovely chargers in a row - well once they’re all blocked as people arrive and go shopping you’re knackered?
So not too far in the future you’re going to need bhp ery large proportions of shopping centre and supermarket etc spaces to be charging stations? Which is mega expensive and we know (if they do have a large number) their use will on average then be low (as not used at night or slow days etc), and no company is going to want to spend any money in an under-utilised item. So they won’t install them, so there will be blocking problems.
Sounds grim
As the uptake of EV’s increases supermarkets, shopping centres, pubs, restaurants, anywhere else with a car park will start to install more destination chargers. Eventually every car park space will have it’s own charger.So not too far in the future you’re going to need bhp ery large proportions of shopping centre and supermarket etc spaces to be charging stations? Which is mega expensive and we know (if they do have a large number) their use will on average then be low (as not used at night or slow days etc), and no company is going to want to spend any money in an under-utilised item. So they won’t install them, so there will be blocking problems.
Sounds grim
These will be slow charging, so cost less to install and owners will top up their cars wherever they go. Having a home charger will be a convenience, rather than essential.
Home charging will remain the standard as the daily commute will still be the primary trip for the majority of drivers.
SDK said:
As the uptake of EV’s increases supermarkets, shopping centres, pubs, restaurants, anywhere else with a car park will start to install more destination chargers. Eventually every car park space will have it’s own charger.
These will be slow charging, so cost less to install and owners will top up their cars wherever they go. Having a home charger will be a convenience, rather than essential.
I think you might be under estimating how much power is needed.These will be slow charging, so cost less to install and owners will top up their cars wherever they go. Having a home charger will be a convenience, rather than essential.
To instal 200 7kw chargers the cost is massive, the infrastructure won’t be there, add to that if you are in the shop for an hour, you will only add maybe 8% charge (20 miles), they start to look a bit pointless.
CoolHands said:
I don’t really understand how public charging will work because of blocking. Ie you hook you car up and go shopping in a shopping centre. They could have what looks like a good facility with 8 lovely chargers in a row - well once they’re all blocked as people arrive and go shopping you’re knackered?
So not too far in the future you’re going to need very large proportions of shopping centre and supermarket etc spaces to be charging stations? Which is mega expensive and we know (if they do have a large number) their use will on average then be low (as not used at night or slow days etc), and no company is going to want to spend any money in an under-utilised item. So they won’t install them, so there will be blocking problems.
Sounds grim
I don’t really understand why anybody wants to charge when they go shopping if they can charge at home. Sure there’s the odd retail outlet where people travel a distance, but the majority of shopping is within easy range.So not too far in the future you’re going to need very large proportions of shopping centre and supermarket etc spaces to be charging stations? Which is mega expensive and we know (if they do have a large number) their use will on average then be low (as not used at night or slow days etc), and no company is going to want to spend any money in an under-utilised item. So they won’t install them, so there will be blocking problems.
Sounds grim
The issues with public charging and people fighting over them has more to do with when they are free and people being desperate for 50p of free electricity while they go to Tescos.
In reality lime much of the EV debate it is about the rich and money. And to a lesser extent green number plate showoffage. AS it is with phones, watches etc, it is very simple market to aim product at.
Even in highly developed areas of the world only the middle classes and above can afford this now hence they only tend to be in rich areas, you won't see charging points in flats or council estates. And I doubt you will for a long time, imagine trying to build it all, a new tech will come or lower class people will be forced onto public transport by tax or other means.
This may change, but not for a while I imagine, hence you will not see them in ANY poor countries either, mainly as they don't give a toss about the environment and are struggling enough to develop let alone do this, the richer parts will dabble obviously like we are here.
But charging for everyone is a long, long way off.
Even in highly developed areas of the world only the middle classes and above can afford this now hence they only tend to be in rich areas, you won't see charging points in flats or council estates. And I doubt you will for a long time, imagine trying to build it all, a new tech will come or lower class people will be forced onto public transport by tax or other means.
This may change, but not for a while I imagine, hence you will not see them in ANY poor countries either, mainly as they don't give a toss about the environment and are struggling enough to develop let alone do this, the richer parts will dabble obviously like we are here.
But charging for everyone is a long, long way off.
SWoll said:
I don't agree. Most of the destinations you mention will be local to the visitors so why would everyone need to charge?
Home charging will remain the standard as the daily commute will still be the primary trip for the majority of drivers.
There are are lot of houses without the facility to charge at home - no driveways etc... You only need to look around the comments on Youtube, Twitter, FB and forums to see this is a problem.Home charging will remain the standard as the daily commute will still be the primary trip for the majority of drivers.
For these people 'graze' charging will work.
DSLiverpool said:
Why can’t we have battery swap stations, battery on a subframe - drive in, coffee, drive out.
I get it that batteries are dangerous but so is petrol.
The infrastructure to store and install 500kg+ battery packs would be very costly and still probably take 10-20mins to swap it. How many of these would be required to avoid queuing at each one!?I get it that batteries are dangerous but so is petrol.
SDK said:
The infrastructure to store and install 500kg+ battery packs would be very costly and still probably take 10-20mins to swap it. How many of these would be required to avoid queuing at each one!?
75% of households do have the ability though, and of the 25% without many don't own cars anyway. Suggesting based on that all parking spaces will have a charger seems highly unlikely?paralla said:
Brisbane to Perth is almost 3000 miles. Adelaide to Perth is 1500. Who's driving that regularly or at all?Edited by SWoll on Saturday 23 October 11:41
There is an answer but our country will not like it, either personally or governmentally, easy swap battery packs are possible on much smaller vehicles like motorbikes, quads, tuc tucs etc, so in big cities were cars are banned hopefully, there is a possibility that battery swap stations can be used.
This still does not help the longer range situation but is certainly an option in cities
It has already been done with huge success on bikes in a part of Taiwan, and it is certainly easier than trying to get something similar for cars, buses, vans etc, which is currently pretty much impossible unless you could remove a small pack of the battery which could top you up significantly and then plug that into a longer charge run of batteries that are harder to remove, I don't know if that would be possible
This still does not help the longer range situation but is certainly an option in cities
It has already been done with huge success on bikes in a part of Taiwan, and it is certainly easier than trying to get something similar for cars, buses, vans etc, which is currently pretty much impossible unless you could remove a small pack of the battery which could top you up significantly and then plug that into a longer charge run of batteries that are harder to remove, I don't know if that would be possible
SDK said:
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There are are lot of houses without the facility to charge at home - no driveways etc... You only need to look around the comments on Youtube, Twitter, FB and forums to see this is a problem.
For these people 'graze' charging will work.
It's only a problem until the government pull thier collective fingers out and sort it out. Around here the majority of houses use on street parking, if you buy a BEV and don't have offroad parking you notify the council so they can track how many on street chargers are needed, and they're trying to roll them out to keep up with demand. There's currently about 10 chargers, each with 2 spaces, within a couple of hundred meters of my place, and BEV uptake is pretty high, although the main driver is probably the taxes on ICE vehicles.There are are lot of houses without the facility to charge at home - no driveways etc... You only need to look around the comments on Youtube, Twitter, FB and forums to see this is a problem.
For these people 'graze' charging will work.
SWoll said:
Brisbane to Perth is almost 3000 miles. Adelaide to Perth is 1500. Who's driving that regularly or at all?
547 miles from Sydney to Melbourne is a journey that loads of people do in private carsEdited by SWoll on Saturday 23 October 11:41
The highway between Sydney to Brisbane (570 miles) carries 150,000 vehicles per day
Distances in Australia are bigger than they are in the UK, domestic flights are expensive and public transport is minimal so you need a car when you arrive at wherever you are going.
I used to regularly drive 900 miles round trip for a ski weekend.
Went through Italy this summer all the way to Basilicata, no real issues. Pretty good charging infrastructure there, all on one network.
Plenty of hotels and stays along the way with chargers, fewer SuC in the deep south but not problematic.
So I don't think Italy is right for your example.
As for other less developed regions, when have manufacturers cared? They've been catered for by a whole host of manufacturers we've often never heard of, as well as old stuff from our side. They are good for another quarter of a century at least.
Plenty of hotels and stays along the way with chargers, fewer SuC in the deep south but not problematic.
So I don't think Italy is right for your example.
As for other less developed regions, when have manufacturers cared? They've been catered for by a whole host of manufacturers we've often never heard of, as well as old stuff from our side. They are good for another quarter of a century at least.
paralla said:
SWoll said:
Brisbane to Perth is almost 3000 miles. Adelaide to Perth is 1500. Who's driving that regularly or at all?
547 miles from Sydney to Melbourne is a journey that loads of people do in private carsEdited by SWoll on Saturday 23 October 11:41
The highway between Sydney to Brisbane (570 miles) carries 150,000 vehicles per day
Distances in Australia are bigger than they are in the UK, domestic flights are expensive and public transport is minimal so you need a car when you arrive at wherever you are going.
I used to regularly drive 900 miles round trip for a ski weekend.
And that's with fairly pessimistic efficienxy in a LR Ioniq 5.
paralla said:
In Australia it’s currently practically impossible to travel interstate using a BEV.
My inserted boldYes today that might be the case but there is no fundamental reason why that should continue to be the case. Aus is a pretty sunny place, installing battery backed charge stations is absolutely feisable and do-able when the demand emerges. And of course, unlike conventional Servo's where the fuel needs to be continually transported out to those remote filling stations, once you have a solar battery, you're done. Build it, use it. As a result its carbon footprint is significantly lower in itself.
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