UK terrorism - an honest perspective?
Discussion
Came across this article last night, penned by an eminent Pakistani journalist. I think it is the most intelligent and honest assessment I have yet read of the causes and implications of the situation we find ourselves in.
www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm
Edited to add that, having read some of the stuff that has been written on PH over the last few days, I think we should ackowledge the contributions of the Muslim PHers, especially 968, Peterpeter and Jazzybee. The way that they have, in general, maintained their dignity, humour and rationality in the face of a great deal of misguided enmity targetting their religion is commendable. How many of us would normally have the opportunity to debate these issues with Muslims in such a frank way and get such a clear understanding of the view from the other angle? Thank you for the reminder that the vast majority of Muslims are no different from the rest of us.
>> Edited by Mon Ami Mate on Monday 25th July 08:58
www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm
Edited to add that, having read some of the stuff that has been written on PH over the last few days, I think we should ackowledge the contributions of the Muslim PHers, especially 968, Peterpeter and Jazzybee. The way that they have, in general, maintained their dignity, humour and rationality in the face of a great deal of misguided enmity targetting their religion is commendable. How many of us would normally have the opportunity to debate these issues with Muslims in such a frank way and get such a clear understanding of the view from the other angle? Thank you for the reminder that the vast majority of Muslims are no different from the rest of us.
>> Edited by Mon Ami Mate on Monday 25th July 08:58
Mon Ami Mate said:
Edited to add that, having read some of the stuff that has been written on PH over the last few days, I think we should ackowledge the contributions of the Muslim PHers, especially 968, Peterpeter and Jazzybee. The way that they have, in general, maintained their dignity, humour and rationality in the face of a great deal of misguided enmity targetting their religion is commendable.
Hear hear
anonymous said:
[redacted]
In Pakistan, there is a very high proportion of Satellite and Cable TV viewers... (as most Pakistani TV channels are absolute rubbish) Entertainment generally comes from Zee TV, and News/documentries from BBC World. Top Gear is incredibly popular, as are many other BBC programs. Goes to show just how alike we all are..
Mon Ami Mate said:
I think we should acknowledge the contributions of the Muslim PHers, especially 968, Peterpeter and Jazzybee. The way that they have, in general, maintained their dignity, humour and rationality in the face of a great deal of misguided enmity targeting their religion is commendable.
guys/gals although I expect others have already beaten me to it by the time this gets posted o/t I was fortunate to have the benefit of a number of afternoons with a Malaysian Muslim girl when I was about 17 who took the time to explain a number of facets of her religion which were confusing to me. By the end of our conversations I came away with the impression that the Muslim religion could, like Christianity, manifest itself in a myriad of different ways. Indeed it appeared to have an even larger scope and perhaps be one of the most accepting religions.
Back on topic the article was a very interesting one and made me think about the ‘cricket test’ that I remember being mooted a number of years ago. Obviously that would be totally unacceptable but in some ways it does make you think.
On the other hand, and please note I have no facts to substantiate this, I have heard about the ‘English’ colonies in Spain and in other foreign countries who behave in a very similar way with an almost ghetto culture. There are also many British Muslims, both 1st and 2nd generation, who have integrated with the rest of British society.
As they say, “Why can’t we all just get along?”
JagLover said:
Good article
and it highlights the key role played by Suadi Arabia-which has been a key US ally, in the growth of radical Islam.
I also think that was one of the key reasons for going into Iraq. If you are stuck on Saudi oil, and after what a lot of Saudis did on 9/11, what is your ultimate revenge? Buy oil off of someone else. Now shuffle along Saddam.
It is a well written and insightfull article. Particularly, the way it acknowledges the denial practiced by our Muslim community.
Doesn't it just hilight what many of us have been saying all along? The root cause of the problem is that many of the Muslim community are Muslim first, Pakistani second and British last.
pp
Doesn't it just hilight what many of us have been saying all along? The root cause of the problem is that many of the Muslim community are Muslim first, Pakistani second and British last.
pp
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Jazzybee,
No it doesn't, quite the opposite. The immense unease that most of us feel is exactly because the bombers watched the same TV programmes as us, attended the same schools as us and had the same opportunities as us, yet they chose to express thesmelves in a way that is totally unimaginable to us and totally at odds with modern British values.
pp
>> Edited by Pickled Piper on Monday 25th July 10:27
An interestingly neutral viewpoint.
'British tolerance is also greatly to blame for the recent attack. An entire generation has grown up in the midst of a remarkable experiment in establishing a multi-cultural society. The various groups of immigrants making up the mosaic that is Britain today have been encouraged to retain their cultural and religious identity. Thus, instead of blending with the mainstream, Muslims have tended to stick together, usually in unattractive ghettos, some of which have become breeding spots for crime. Indeed, many of these are no-go areas for the police, and whites enter them at their peril.'
'British tolerance is also greatly to blame for the recent attack. An entire generation has grown up in the midst of a remarkable experiment in establishing a multi-cultural society. The various groups of immigrants making up the mosaic that is Britain today have been encouraged to retain their cultural and religious identity. Thus, instead of blending with the mainstream, Muslims have tended to stick together, usually in unattractive ghettos, some of which have become breeding spots for crime. Indeed, many of these are no-go areas for the police, and whites enter them at their peril.'
Pickled Piper said:
It is a well written and insightfull article. Particularly, the way it acknowledges the denial practiced by our Muslim community.
Doesn't it just hilight what many of us have been saying all along? The root cause of the problem is that many of the Muslim community are Muslim first, Pakistani second and British last.
pp
Problem is, its not just a Muslim problem..
I know its a crap anaology but just look at the Big Brother house.. Everybody just bitches about everybody els, even so called friends. Its the same in the wider world it seems. Any reason or issue that enables us to point at others and say "different" seems to be grasped.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
PP, I think that you are confusing the terrorists with the vast majority of Pakistani Muslim people. We do feel uneasy at the terrorists growing up in our midst. We shouldn't feel in the slightest uneasy about the interest in BBC programmes in Pakistan.
All these terrorists may claim to be Muslims, but not all Muslims are terrorists. It really isn't a difficult formula to understand.
Pickled Piper said:
Jazzybee,
No it doesn't, quite the opposite. The immense unease that most of us feel is exactly because the bombers watched the same TV programmes as us, attended the same schools as us and had the same opportunities as us, yet they chose to express thesmelves in a way that is totally unimaginable to us and totally at odds with modern British values.
What I was refering to was that the ease of the Dibnah reference is translated within a Pakistani newspaper article. Yes, however, you are right, that the fact that there are those among us (the British public) that are accumilating soo much hate that they feel that there is some justification in committing grotesque murderous acts, is absolutly terrifying, not just to you, but to me also. I agree that the PC attitude in the UK has been a contributing factor to what has happend, but we should not let the situation swing too far in the opposite direction. Remember that 99.999% of British Muslims will be similar in their outrage to the events of 7/7 - If we let anti-muslim feelings go too far, and you reduce the figure to 98%, you are adding tens of thousands to those supporting those murderers. Stop and deport those Imams that preach hate. Do it immediately. Do it with no hearing, no compensation and make the media reporting their responses, aware that they could be prosecuted for promoting hatred if they replay the Imams responses. Do not discriminate against Muslims, but also stop positive discrimination. It is condescending and counterproductive. If you want additional minorities to be part of an organisation, you need to establish trust in it, and make it attractive to join.
Would I as a British Muslim fight for a British Army sent to Iraq? If that is a qualifying question of my loyalty to my country, then I think I would be in trouble. I do not trust my Politicians enough to fight the fights they choose. Blair has just about erroded my faith in the Government and many of its institutions. This is not because I am a Muslim, but because I am British - and I feel that we have lost a lot of our credibility as a nation. We need to put that right before you get anymore than lip-service from not only Muslims in Britain but all of British Society. Blair, Brown - Step up to the plate, and lead by example.
When I travelled through Africa, I couldn't have wished to meet a better bunch of people. It seems the Koran outlines social practice similar to the bible. I was left with the feeling that it would be good if we could have a bit more interest/hospitality/kinship in this country.
God knows how extreme clerics put such an extreme bent on it. It's a real shame for the gooduns. I'm going to sound a bit Blairlike and say that I reckon it's about time we put a bigger gap between the bombers and their religion and got that across to the public.
Stu
God knows how extreme clerics put such an extreme bent on it. It's a real shame for the gooduns. I'm going to sound a bit Blairlike and say that I reckon it's about time we put a bigger gap between the bombers and their religion and got that across to the public.
Stu
peterpeter caling pickled piper.
You seem to be falling for the idea expressed by Jfletcher in the other thread that this is how all muslims are.
Its plain wrong.
Its exactly the same as the bigotry expressed at the Irish during the IRA bombing campaign.
Its unfair, but I suppose its inevitable from the more ignorant sections of society, which Im sure you arent.
But ultimately if it makes you feel that way, then this terrorist death cult has won its strategic war on you.
Because quite frankly, looking at the possible aims and objectives of the attack, it was just plain stupid. They have achieved nothing.
The only realistic objective must have been to create hatred and suspicion.
>> Edited by peterpeter on Monday 25th July 11:09
You seem to be falling for the idea expressed by Jfletcher in the other thread that this is how all muslims are.
Its plain wrong.
Its exactly the same as the bigotry expressed at the Irish during the IRA bombing campaign.
Its unfair, but I suppose its inevitable from the more ignorant sections of society, which Im sure you arent.
But ultimately if it makes you feel that way, then this terrorist death cult has won its strategic war on you.
Because quite frankly, looking at the possible aims and objectives of the attack, it was just plain stupid. They have achieved nothing.
The only realistic objective must have been to create hatred and suspicion.
>> Edited by peterpeter on Monday 25th July 11:09
Mon Ami Mate said:
Edited to add that, having read some of the stuff that has been written on PH over the last few days, I think we should ackowledge the contributions of the Muslim PHers, especially 968, Peterpeter and Jazzybee. The way that they have, in general, maintained their dignity, humour and rationality in the face of a great deal of misguided enmity targetting their religion is commendable. How many of us would normally have the opportunity to debate these issues with Muslims in such a frank way and get such a clear understanding of the view from the other angle? Thank you for the reminder that the vast majority of Muslims are no different from the rest of us.
Agreed many times over. Thank you for saying that.
jazzybee said:Where did you get this figure? the much quoted recent YouGov poll shows a far lower figure and also suggests a significant percentage give tacit approval.[/quote]
Jazzybee,
No it doesn't, quite the opposite. The immense unease that most of us feel is exactly because the bombers watched the same TV programmes as us, attended the same schools as us and had the same opportunities as us, yet they chose to express thesmelves in a way that is totally unimaginable to us and totally at odds with modern British values.
Remember that 99.999% of British Muslims will be similar in their outrage to the events of 7/7 -.
.[/quote] If you want additional minorities to be part of an organisation, you need to establish trust in it, and make it attractive to join. .[/quote]
This is a two way street. The ethnic minorities (I am one) have already joined by accepting a British passport. They are seen to be enjoying the benefits of the "club" whilst still openly showing allegiance to their old club, constantly complaining that they are not made to feel welcome and now by terrorising many of it's other members.[/quote]
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