Panasonic Prototype EV Battery - Big Capacity Gains
Discussion
The answer to EV adoption for those PH'ers that drive from Lands End to John O'Groates every day without stopping??
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-battery-e...
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-battery-e...
Another big distance battery promise that may or may not happen….. but for a more detailed view I highly recommend reading the Intercooler’s two parter on this subject with a chap that really knows his onions on batteries and materials. Most informative. Covers everything from why lithium ion may go on longer in use than expected, Honda backing solid state and much more detail on this CATL Tesla stuff (also Ford intending to use this).
I am always deeply skeptical on these things.
We have been promised so much and so little has been delivered (and I am not going to pick on Tesla at this point). Exactly how many times have battery manufacturers promised stuff like this before? Revolution, disruption or transformation? Yeah, not going to believe it until we have some solid examples in the hands of some independent journalists for a reasonable amount of time.
A quick Google search for 'battery tech promises' gives me pages of 'news announcements' about breakthroughs that just havent been delivered. Smartphones, cars, trucks, blah blah....
What is good news is that there is a lot of effort going into the area. A lot of development dollars are getting spent to make incremental gains, and that will ultimately benefit us all. I dont think there will be a single breakthrough - more like regular gains over time and before we realize, things are way better. But will a single manufacturer like Panasonic crack the code? Yeah, I am going to wait for that one to happen.
We have been promised so much and so little has been delivered (and I am not going to pick on Tesla at this point). Exactly how many times have battery manufacturers promised stuff like this before? Revolution, disruption or transformation? Yeah, not going to believe it until we have some solid examples in the hands of some independent journalists for a reasonable amount of time.
A quick Google search for 'battery tech promises' gives me pages of 'news announcements' about breakthroughs that just havent been delivered. Smartphones, cars, trucks, blah blah....
What is good news is that there is a lot of effort going into the area. A lot of development dollars are getting spent to make incremental gains, and that will ultimately benefit us all. I dont think there will be a single breakthrough - more like regular gains over time and before we realize, things are way better. But will a single manufacturer like Panasonic crack the code? Yeah, I am going to wait for that one to happen.
RobDickinson said:
This isnt anything particularly revolutionary though, just a repackaging and a few tweaks.
Obviously dont know quite what Panasonic are doing with these in particular though
The battery spec needed for the Roadster 2.0 is pretty revolutionary. Tesla is going to need a fit a battery with around 130kWh usable energy into a car smaller than the 3, which currently tops out at 80kWh. So more than a 50% jump in energy density.Obviously dont know quite what Panasonic are doing with these in particular though
When you consider a 2021 Plaid S has roughly 14% more usable kWh than a 2011 85 S, its a massive jump in battery tech Elon had bet the entire future range of Tesla cars on.
If Panasonic is only now producing prototypes its going to take easily another 1-2 years before we see mass production, so I suspect its unlikely we'll see any new Tesla models introduced before 2023.
gangzoom said:
RobDickinson said:
This isnt anything particularly revolutionary though, just a repackaging and a few tweaks.
Obviously dont know quite what Panasonic are doing with these in particular though
The battery spec needed for the Roadster 2.0 is pretty revolutionary. Tesla is going to need a fit a battery with around 130kWh usable energy into a car smaller than the 3, which currently tops out at 80kWh. So more than a 50% jump in energy density.Obviously dont know quite what Panasonic are doing with these in particular though
When you consider a 2021 Plaid S has roughly 14% more usable kWh than a 2011 85 S, its a massive jump in battery tech Elon had bet the entire future range of Tesla cars on.
If Panasonic is only now producing prototypes its going to take easily another 1-2 years before we see mass production, so I suspect its unlikely we'll see any new Tesla models introduced before 2023.
It’s not just energy density from a packaging point of view, it weight that needs to be reduced, 200kwh in a car under 2000kg is going to need all the help it can get. Making the battery a structural component is going to help, At around 22-24kg/kWh you’re adding 230kg while trying to lighten the car by 300kg based on current weights. That’s a reduction if about 500kg or 25% of 5he whole car
gangzoom said:
The battery spec needed for the Roadster 2.0 is pretty revolutionary. Tesla is going to need a fit a battery with around 130kWh usable energy into a car smaller than the 3, which currently tops out at 80kWh. So more than a 50% jump in energy density.
When you consider a 2021 Plaid S has roughly 14% more usable kWh than a 2011 85 S, its a massive jump in battery tech Elon had bet the entire future range of Tesla cars on.
If Panasonic is only now producing prototypes its going to take easily another 1-2 years before we see mass production, so I suspect its unlikely we'll see any new Tesla models introduced before 2023.
I'm not sure why you're talking about the roadster, that will use teslas own 4680s not these. When you consider a 2021 Plaid S has roughly 14% more usable kWh than a 2011 85 S, its a massive jump in battery tech Elon had bet the entire future range of Tesla cars on.
If Panasonic is only now producing prototypes its going to take easily another 1-2 years before we see mass production, so I suspect its unlikely we'll see any new Tesla models introduced before 2023.
It must be about the hundredth prototype battery this year which promises to double energy density. Will this one come to production... well of course it's possible but I wouldn't want to bet anything on it!
This particular one just appears to be repackaging rather than a chemical change which I suppose might make it more likely to work as long as they haven't compromised the thermal performance.
This particular one just appears to be repackaging rather than a chemical change which I suppose might make it more likely to work as long as they haven't compromised the thermal performance.
gangzoom said:
The battery spec needed for the Roadster 2.0 is pretty revolutionary. Tesla is going to need a fit a battery with around 130kWh usable energy into a car smaller than the 3, which currently tops out at 80kWh. So more than a 50% jump in energy density.
Or they could just fit a physically bigger battery. It's not unusual for sporty cars to sacrifice interior space. Yes, another "new world beating" battery announcement.
BUT:
The difference is now the path to global electricification is clear, investors are finally seeing this as not just valid, but potentially enourmously lucrative, funding potential. Today, you can walk into any major OE and if you can deliver anything more than a 10% energy density increase you can write yourself a blank check, and that's before we consider non automotive uses.
As worldwide battery cell production ramps up exponentially over the next 3 to 5 years, there will be a significant improvement at some point, simply because we are nowhere near the fundamental limits of a chemical battery. Yes, problems such as life, temperature range and even the mass producability of these new chemistries and cell architectures, all exist, and are indeed serious hurdles, but again, critically, there is no FUNDAMENTAL reason they cannot be overcome, especially when there are absolutely vast sums of money now available to do just that!
Improved packaging and much lower conservatism have delivered approx a doubling of installed energy density in the last 6 odd years, today, i see another 50% increase being available even with existing chemistry (used in better cell geometery with better control and management to reduce aging) over the next 5 odd years.
So whilst most of these "breakthough announcements" are really simply PR to attract investors, behind the scenes an absolutely collosal amount of work is being done, will continue to be done, and will yield results.
Remember, another 50% improvement would see a Tesla with the 150 kWh battery, good for approachine 500 miles of real world range, or my little i3 with around 60 kWh (200 miles real world). At that point, realistically EVs are more than good enough. Infact, most industry experts predict battery sizes to FALL as people simply realise they don't actually drive 200 miles every day and would prefer a cheaper car........
BUT:
The difference is now the path to global electricification is clear, investors are finally seeing this as not just valid, but potentially enourmously lucrative, funding potential. Today, you can walk into any major OE and if you can deliver anything more than a 10% energy density increase you can write yourself a blank check, and that's before we consider non automotive uses.
As worldwide battery cell production ramps up exponentially over the next 3 to 5 years, there will be a significant improvement at some point, simply because we are nowhere near the fundamental limits of a chemical battery. Yes, problems such as life, temperature range and even the mass producability of these new chemistries and cell architectures, all exist, and are indeed serious hurdles, but again, critically, there is no FUNDAMENTAL reason they cannot be overcome, especially when there are absolutely vast sums of money now available to do just that!
Improved packaging and much lower conservatism have delivered approx a doubling of installed energy density in the last 6 odd years, today, i see another 50% increase being available even with existing chemistry (used in better cell geometery with better control and management to reduce aging) over the next 5 odd years.
So whilst most of these "breakthough announcements" are really simply PR to attract investors, behind the scenes an absolutely collosal amount of work is being done, will continue to be done, and will yield results.
Remember, another 50% improvement would see a Tesla with the 150 kWh battery, good for approachine 500 miles of real world range, or my little i3 with around 60 kWh (200 miles real world). At that point, realistically EVs are more than good enough. Infact, most industry experts predict battery sizes to FALL as people simply realise they don't actually drive 200 miles every day and would prefer a cheaper car........
Heres Johnny said:
In the last 6 years we’ve seen a doubling of energy density? Tesla are still shipping fundamentally the same cells in the MS as they have done for many years.
Shape yes, the pack design has had what 6-7 revisions and at least 3 different chemistries. Stop confusing the size and shape of a cell with whats in it.
RobDickinson said:
Heres Johnny said:
In the last 6 years we’ve seen a doubling of energy density? Tesla are still shipping fundamentally the same cells in the MS as they have done for many years.
Shape yes, the pack design has had what 6-7 revisions and at least 3 different chemistries. Stop confusing the size and shape of a cell with whats in it.
RobDickinson said:
Heres Johnny said:
In the last 6 years we’ve seen a doubling of energy density? Tesla are still shipping fundamentally the same cells in the MS as they have done for many years.
Shape yes, the pack design has had what 6-7 revisions and at least 3 different chemistries. Stop confusing the size and shape of a cell with whats in it.
off_again said:
And BMW effectively doubled its battery pack in 7-8 years in essentially the same space. Now, did they leave a lot on the table in the first 60aH version? Maybe. But it is impressive that 7 years later, essentially the same space can now support 120aH battery packs. Of course, it is heavier though, there is no magic formula to increase energy storage without extra density. But it does show that things are improving.
Same space I guess means taking up where the Rex part was? They did increase the rex battery a good chunk (22->33kwh) but as you said it might not have been the best packaging to start with.
RobDickinson said:
gangzoom said:
The battery spec needed for the Roadster 2.0 is pretty revolutionary. Tesla is going to need a fit a battery with around 130kWh usable energy into a car smaller than the 3, which currently tops out at 80kWh. So more than a 50% jump in energy density.
When you consider a 2021 Plaid S has roughly 14% more usable kWh than a 2011 85 S, its a massive jump in battery tech Elon had bet the entire future range of Tesla cars on.
If Panasonic is only now producing prototypes its going to take easily another 1-2 years before we see mass production, so I suspect its unlikely we'll see any new Tesla models introduced before 2023.
I'm not sure why you're talking about the roadster, that will use teslas own 4680s not these. When you consider a 2021 Plaid S has roughly 14% more usable kWh than a 2011 85 S, its a massive jump in battery tech Elon had bet the entire future range of Tesla cars on.
If Panasonic is only now producing prototypes its going to take easily another 1-2 years before we see mass production, so I suspect its unlikely we'll see any new Tesla models introduced before 2023.
https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/panasonic-unveils-t...
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