Are PHEV's still worth it?
Discussion
Thinking about what to replace my ageing diesel vRS with. My wife's going to be doing about a 15 mile/day commute, and other than that we only really use the car for longish trips, and only did 7500 miles last year (although Covid limited the longer trips quite a lot).
On paper a PHEV like an Octavia iV or V60 Recharge seems ideal, electric for the commute, but the range to do 400+ mile trips that we do several times a year, but I can't help thinking when running on ICE you're lugging a lot of extra weight around, and you still need all the mechanicals serviced like an ICE car.
Are PHEV's on the way out in favor of BEV's, or is it still worth looking at them?
On paper a PHEV like an Octavia iV or V60 Recharge seems ideal, electric for the commute, but the range to do 400+ mile trips that we do several times a year, but I can't help thinking when running on ICE you're lugging a lot of extra weight around, and you still need all the mechanicals serviced like an ICE car.
Are PHEV's on the way out in favor of BEV's, or is it still worth looking at them?
I think PHEVs are on the way out and would not buy one, they are either an electric car lugging around all the stuff you need for an ICE car or an ICE car lugging about batteries etc, this makes them more complex and expensive to run.
We are already at the point where the longest-range EVs can do over 400 miles and most can do more than 250, combined with higher charging speeds and an expanding charging network makes it perfectly possible to have an EV as your only car.
We are already at the point where the longest-range EVs can do over 400 miles and most can do more than 250, combined with higher charging speeds and an expanding charging network makes it perfectly possible to have an EV as your only car.
I like mine it works for me. I have the older gen 7kwh 225xe which does 14-18 miles on a charge. So every morning I get 14-18 'free' miles which covers school runs, shopping, the office etc. Then if I go to a client site or off on a trip you don't have to factor any charging in.
Yes EV's exist with longer range and fast charging now, but not at the price this 225XE was.
Yes EV's exist with longer range and fast charging now, but not at the price this 225XE was.
Yeah, several these days are claiming 50 miles electric range (not far off a mates first gen Zoe's range!), which would be plenty for any short journeys we do, but I'm not sure if it's worth the extra weight over a non plug in "mild hybrid" that's potentially 10k cheaper. I don't think I'm quite ready to go BEV yet.
If you're just going to lease one for a few years then PHEV probably does make a reasonable amount of sense. As a long term proposition I'd say not; pretty much the worst of both worlds in many ways.
If buying new with your own money I'd be cautious now around PHEV and especially ICE. I suspect, contrary to some views, that ICE will become increasingly valueless as the switch to pure BEV continues.
If buying new with your own money I'd be cautious now around PHEV and especially ICE. I suspect, contrary to some views, that ICE will become increasingly valueless as the switch to pure BEV continues.
Probably on their way out, but not irrelevant. I am about to sign (I think! Not done it yet) for a Volvo XC90 T8 phev - bigger battery recently announced giving real world 30-ish. My main reason is size of boot - XC90 is the only one big enough for my needs.
A phev would be ideal for my wife’s use (30 miles round trip to work) but she would not put it in the garage to charge every night - so getting her a full EV and I will have phev (she has diesel at the moment and I have an EV. Getting her a phev won’t work well, but getting me one will as I work from home and do quite a lot of local miles that should be doable on electricity.
I would have a full electric car (as well as one for wife) if there was anything (I could cope with ) that has a big enough boot. But XC90 will plug (no pun intended) a gap until it’s replacement can be had as full EV in 3.5 years.
A phev would be ideal for my wife’s use (30 miles round trip to work) but she would not put it in the garage to charge every night - so getting her a full EV and I will have phev (she has diesel at the moment and I have an EV. Getting her a phev won’t work well, but getting me one will as I work from home and do quite a lot of local miles that should be doable on electricity.
I would have a full electric car (as well as one for wife) if there was anything (I could cope with ) that has a big enough boot. But XC90 will plug (no pun intended) a gap until it’s replacement can be had as full EV in 3.5 years.
I have a PHEV on order. I could probably live with a full EV but:
There aren't really any estates.
My wife would kill me on the first long journey where we have to have a long "unscheduled" charge stop.
My commute is 10 miles each way and I can charge at both ends. I very rarely do over 15-20 miles in one journey which is terrible for MPG with an ICE. My long journeys tend to be either Cornwall or the Lakes so limited charging scope.
There aren't really any estates.
My wife would kill me on the first long journey where we have to have a long "unscheduled" charge stop.
My commute is 10 miles each way and I can charge at both ends. I very rarely do over 15-20 miles in one journey which is terrible for MPG with an ICE. My long journeys tend to be either Cornwall or the Lakes so limited charging scope.
RizzoTheRat said:
but the range to do 400+ mile trips that we do several times a year
What exactly is "several"??I suspect that being a cheap, low range BEV for your daily usege (assuming you can charge at home) and simply hiring a car for the occasional longer trip would work out cheaper.
If you'd bought say a gen 1 leaf at the start of this year, it actually would have appreciated in value by a significant amount and with near zero daily running costs you'd be saving the environment, have a more convient car and be better off!
Also, where are these 400 mile trips too? Is there a charging network where you are going? A modern mid range BEV that can do around 250 miles on a charge really isn't that much of a problem on a 400 mile trip, certainly in the UK, because that's probably already an 8 hour drive or so, so a hour and a bit of charging (assuming a basic 50kW fast charge, less on a 125 kW charger / BEV) isn't a big deal.....
BEV and hire car would definitely be feasible, but potentially annoying hiring a car whenever we go away.
In the last year we've probably only done half a dozen longer trips, with the longest being about 600 miles in the day to Cornwall (which I guess might be more limited on chargers than some other counties), but Covid has limited travel somewhat. Once restrictions are lifted we'd probably be aiming to go somewhere once a month or so, mix of visiting family in the UK and touring in Europe, but staying with friends/family or B&B's that don't have charging so would have to rely on public ones. Last trip pre covid was about 2000km around Germany, finding public chargers every day or only booking hotels that have charging facilities would be doable but an extra level of hassle. And of course if we weren't charging, a PHEV isn't a great idea for those kind of trips either, which kind of makes me wonder at the point of PHEVs.
In the last year we've probably only done half a dozen longer trips, with the longest being about 600 miles in the day to Cornwall (which I guess might be more limited on chargers than some other counties), but Covid has limited travel somewhat. Once restrictions are lifted we'd probably be aiming to go somewhere once a month or so, mix of visiting family in the UK and touring in Europe, but staying with friends/family or B&B's that don't have charging so would have to rely on public ones. Last trip pre covid was about 2000km around Germany, finding public chargers every day or only booking hotels that have charging facilities would be doable but an extra level of hassle. And of course if we weren't charging, a PHEV isn't a great idea for those kind of trips either, which kind of makes me wonder at the point of PHEVs.
RizzoTheRat said:
BEV and hire car would definitely be feasible, but potentially annoying hiring a car whenever we go away.
In the last year we've probably only done half a dozen longer trips, with the longest being about 600 miles in the day to Cornwall (which I guess might be more limited on chargers than some other counties), but Covid has limited travel somewhat. Once restrictions are lifted we'd probably be aiming to go somewhere once a month or so, mix of visiting family in the UK and touring in Europe, but staying with friends/family or B&B's that don't have charging so would have to rely on public ones. Last trip pre covid was about 2000km around Germany, finding public chargers every day or only booking hotels that have charging facilities would be doable but an extra level of hassle. And of course if we weren't charging, a PHEV isn't a great idea for those kind of trips either, which kind of makes me wonder at the point of PHEVs.
This is why my next EV will be a long-range Tesla Model 3, their charging network is superb and I would have no hesitation in tackling any of the trips you mention above in one.In the last year we've probably only done half a dozen longer trips, with the longest being about 600 miles in the day to Cornwall (which I guess might be more limited on chargers than some other counties), but Covid has limited travel somewhat. Once restrictions are lifted we'd probably be aiming to go somewhere once a month or so, mix of visiting family in the UK and touring in Europe, but staying with friends/family or B&B's that don't have charging so would have to rely on public ones. Last trip pre covid was about 2000km around Germany, finding public chargers every day or only booking hotels that have charging facilities would be doable but an extra level of hassle. And of course if we weren't charging, a PHEV isn't a great idea for those kind of trips either, which kind of makes me wonder at the point of PHEVs.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger
As you say a PHEV is pretty pointless on a long trip, you would probably get better economy from a normal diesel car.
I have done 98k miles in my Renault Zoe during the last 3.5 years, have charged up over 1300 times using public chargers and have saved around £16k just in fuel, plus more in servicing and road tax, I have hired a car twice to do long journeys and it was no trouble at all.
blank said:
I have a PHEV on order. I could probably live with a full EV but:
There aren't really any estates.
.
This is exactly it, I think the only thing size wise (and not wanting a big suv) would be a Tesla Y but that is the top money and not available yet.There aren't really any estates.
.
I went for a phev with a 10 (or 12?) kWh battery, and find myself doing over 80% of my miles on electric so far.
What it tells me is I could definitely live with an EV, so next purchase/lease will definitely be one.
RizzoTheRat said:
BEV and hire car would definitely be feasible, but potentially annoying hiring a car whenever we go away.
Ring around some of the hire firms. IME if you have any semi-regular requirement they will bend over backwards to support you, including delivering the car to and from your front door. About as painless as it can be!The comparison to diesel is interesting. My previous car was a C220D auto.
One the motorway at 70+ nothing will touch a diesel.
Around town without charging the 225xe gives slightly better economy overall. Much better on short journeys where the diesel never gets up to temp. Heater works straight away in the hybrid. And I'd rather be driving the hybrid every time, much nicer than the diesel in every way.
For general A road cruising there isn't a lot in it.
Obvs the option of actually charging the phev is a big plus.
One the motorway at 70+ nothing will touch a diesel.
Around town without charging the 225xe gives slightly better economy overall. Much better on short journeys where the diesel never gets up to temp. Heater works straight away in the hybrid. And I'd rather be driving the hybrid every time, much nicer than the diesel in every way.
For general A road cruising there isn't a lot in it.
Obvs the option of actually charging the phev is a big plus.
I think there are use cases for a PHEV and it really depends on how you plan to use it. Harry Metcalfe (ex-Evo) did a few videos on large SUV PHEV's and admitted that they fit his requirements better than a BEV - and thats absolutely fine. Just watching the recent RR launch video he did as he has the current 400e model. I cant remember directly, but I think over the lifetime of the car, he's getting something like 60MPG! But, that is because he charges every night and his trips are either all less than 30 miles or more than 200 miles - so the PHEV works perfectly for him.
Clearly, if you are averaging 50+ miles per day and you cant charge every night, that MPG is going to drop very quickly. The benefit of the battery side becomes much reduced and could even be a detriment! But for the use cases that Harry has, I totally get it. Is it a narrow market? Maybe, time will tell, but I see the opportunity to save money for the essential trips that are short - and access to charging becomes critical to maintain that. And you have the engine to take you longer distances without a worry, even if this will impact MPG. Could work for a lot of people.
But, as others have mentioned, it really depends on situation and circumstances. A new car purchase is never a sound financial decision, but if saving money is the goal, a BEV does make sense. But only if it works for you. As others have mentioned here and elsewhere, a cheap older BEV could be ideal for the shorter trips (and in some cases even easier - parking etc). Then get something nice for the longer trips. But then you run the extra costs of running two cars and both depreciating.... Then again, sometimes you just want something nice to roll around in, and that comes down to personal decisions.
I really like the idea of some of the current and next gen PHEV's though - 50+ miles range on electric, faster charging and more efficient engines - could be the winning combo?
Clearly, if you are averaging 50+ miles per day and you cant charge every night, that MPG is going to drop very quickly. The benefit of the battery side becomes much reduced and could even be a detriment! But for the use cases that Harry has, I totally get it. Is it a narrow market? Maybe, time will tell, but I see the opportunity to save money for the essential trips that are short - and access to charging becomes critical to maintain that. And you have the engine to take you longer distances without a worry, even if this will impact MPG. Could work for a lot of people.
But, as others have mentioned, it really depends on situation and circumstances. A new car purchase is never a sound financial decision, but if saving money is the goal, a BEV does make sense. But only if it works for you. As others have mentioned here and elsewhere, a cheap older BEV could be ideal for the shorter trips (and in some cases even easier - parking etc). Then get something nice for the longer trips. But then you run the extra costs of running two cars and both depreciating.... Then again, sometimes you just want something nice to roll around in, and that comes down to personal decisions.
I really like the idea of some of the current and next gen PHEV's though - 50+ miles range on electric, faster charging and more efficient engines - could be the winning combo?
Max_Torque said:
RizzoTheRat said:
but the range to do 400+ mile trips that we do several times a year
What exactly is "several"??I suspect that being a cheap, low range BEV for your daily usege (assuming you can charge at home) and simply hiring a car for the occasional longer trip would work out cheaper.
If you'd bought say a gen 1 leaf at the start of this year, it actually would have appreciated in value by a significant amount and with near zero daily running costs you'd be saving the environment, have a more convient car and be better off!
Also, where are these 400 mile trips too? Is there a charging network where you are going? A modern mid range BEV that can do around 250 miles on a charge really isn't that much of a problem on a 400 mile trip, certainly in the UK, because that's probably already an 8 hour drive or so, so a hour and a bit of charging (assuming a basic 50kW fast charge, less on a 125 kW charger / BEV) isn't a big deal.....
The advantage I see to a PHEV is that you can do long trips on petrol without range/charge point anxiety and short trips on electricity. So yes, on the longer trips you’re lugging batteries and on the short one you’re lugging an engine. Swings and roundabouts though - I’d rather have one car that does both things than two that do different things.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 27th October 21:14
Pooh said:
This is why my next EV will be a long-range Tesla Model 3, their charging network is superb and I would have no hesitation in tackling any of the trips you mention above in one.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger
As you say a PHEV is pretty pointless on a long trip, you would probably get better economy from a normal diesel car.
I have done 98k miles in my Renault Zoe during the last 3.5 years, have charged up over 1300 times using public chargers and have saved around £16k just in fuel, plus more in servicing and road tax, I have hired a car twice to do long journeys and it was no trouble at all.
Teslas so called ‘superb’ charging network is actually non existent in large parts of the country away from major roads, apart from destination chargers at a few hotels. That’s why PHEV’s make a lot of sense to those of us who live in more rural areas and who don’t spend their lives at the local spa hotel.https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger
As you say a PHEV is pretty pointless on a long trip, you would probably get better economy from a normal diesel car.
I have done 98k miles in my Renault Zoe during the last 3.5 years, have charged up over 1300 times using public chargers and have saved around £16k just in fuel, plus more in servicing and road tax, I have hired a car twice to do long journeys and it was no trouble at all.
Bobtherallyfan said:
Pooh said:
This is why my next EV will be a long-range Tesla Model 3, their charging network is superb and I would have no hesitation in tackling any of the trips you mention above in one.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger
As you say a PHEV is pretty pointless on a long trip, you would probably get better economy from a normal diesel car.
I have done 98k miles in my Renault Zoe during the last 3.5 years, have charged up over 1300 times using public chargers and have saved around £16k just in fuel, plus more in servicing and road tax, I have hired a car twice to do long journeys and it was no trouble at all.
Teslas so called ‘superb’ charging network is actually non existent in large parts of the country away from major roads, apart from destination chargers at a few hotels. That’s why PHEV’s make a lot of sense to those of us who live in more rural areas and who don’t spend their lives at the local spa hotel.https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger
As you say a PHEV is pretty pointless on a long trip, you would probably get better economy from a normal diesel car.
I have done 98k miles in my Renault Zoe during the last 3.5 years, have charged up over 1300 times using public chargers and have saved around £16k just in fuel, plus more in servicing and road tax, I have hired a car twice to do long journeys and it was no trouble at all.
He has an i-pace, but just didnt find it convenient. Ok, so its not got the best range, but its hardly bad. The ability to the 250+ mile trips in a day without worrying / stopping / charging etc, seems fair. Now does he do 150 miles without stopping? Who knows, but he did also do one of the trips in an Audi e-tron GT and had to charge when he got to the restorers. It worked, but his requirements just dont quite fit to a BEV - and thats OK.
Now, my sister ran two Zoe's for years - and thats what triggered me to not worry about range or charging. Worked a dream - picked me up from the airport a couple of times; a distance well beyond the fully charged range! Cool. But she absolutely admitted that she was dependent on where she could go based on charging. Trip to the lake district for the weekend? Yeah, thats not going to happen (Wiltshire based!). Yes its possible and yes there are lots of chargers. Just a hassle. Nip down to Cornwall for an impromptu couple of days? Errrr, need to plan that out. Now, zipping around Wiltshire and a little further afield? Yeah, absolutely no hassle.
Bobtherallyfan said:
Pooh said:
This is why my next EV will be a long-range Tesla Model 3, their charging network is superb and I would have no hesitation in tackling any of the trips you mention above in one.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger
As you say a PHEV is pretty pointless on a long trip, you would probably get better economy from a normal diesel car.
I have done 98k miles in my Renault Zoe during the last 3.5 years, have charged up over 1300 times using public chargers and have saved around £16k just in fuel, plus more in servicing and road tax, I have hired a car twice to do long journeys and it was no trouble at all.
Teslas so called ‘superb’ charging network is actually non existent in large parts of the country away from major roads, apart from destination chargers at a few hotels. That’s why PHEV’s make a lot of sense to those of us who live in more rural areas and who don’t spend their lives at the local spa hotel.https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger
As you say a PHEV is pretty pointless on a long trip, you would probably get better economy from a normal diesel car.
I have done 98k miles in my Renault Zoe during the last 3.5 years, have charged up over 1300 times using public chargers and have saved around £16k just in fuel, plus more in servicing and road tax, I have hired a car twice to do long journeys and it was no trouble at all.
RizzoTheRat said:
Thinking about what to replace my ageing diesel vRS with. My wife's going to be doing about a 15 mile/day commute, and other than that we only really use the car for longish trips, and only did 7500 miles last year (although Covid limited the longer trips quite a lot).
On paper a PHEV like an Octavia iV or V60 Recharge seems ideal, electric for the commute, but the range to do 400+ mile trips that we do several times a year, but I can't help thinking when running on ICE you're lugging a lot of extra weight around, and you still need all the mechanicals serviced like an ICE car.
Are PHEV's on the way out in favor of BEV's, or is it still worth looking at them?
I think PHEV's are quite appealing at the moment, there's a few with decent range available. The Octavia and Leon have popped up on our radar recently as they have enough range for her ladyship to get to work and back on battery, even in the middle of winter, so 98% of our trips could be on battery. For the other 40% of our mileage, fill the tank up and go without thinking about where you'll fill up again.On paper a PHEV like an Octavia iV or V60 Recharge seems ideal, electric for the commute, but the range to do 400+ mile trips that we do several times a year, but I can't help thinking when running on ICE you're lugging a lot of extra weight around, and you still need all the mechanicals serviced like an ICE car.
Are PHEV's on the way out in favor of BEV's, or is it still worth looking at them?
Some say it's carrying an extra drivetrain around all the time, but that's not the full story as the electric motor can give a performance boost on the long journeys. For the short trips, how does a modest ICE and gearbox compare to an extra 60-70 kWh of batteries? All these long range BEV's are carting lots of heavy, unused batteries around all the time.
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