Russell group universities
Discussion
My lad is in the process of applying to university to read engineering. He has a shortlist, some of which are russell group, some not.
As no doubt there are some powerfully built execs here, my question is does it make much difference to career prospects if undergrad study is at a russell group uni or not?
As no doubt there are some powerfully built execs here, my question is does it make much difference to career prospects if undergrad study is at a russell group uni or not?
I think in this age of many As at A level, the university one attends becomes a useful indicator of ability.
Having said that, I know loads of successful people with degrees from not-so-good universities and without degrees but it does depend upon the profession.
I’m not in engineering so I can’t comment on that field.
Having said that, I know loads of successful people with degrees from not-so-good universities and without degrees but it does depend upon the profession.
I’m not in engineering so I can’t comment on that field.
I recruit engineers, currently sifting the graduate applications for the intake next year.
I will take the best applicants I can get regardless of where they studied for the degree.
I do however target those universities where I have previously had good people from. The standard of graduates from the different universities does vary and some courses seem to produce grads more suited to the type of work my employer does, many of those are the Russell group ones.
I will take the best applicants I can get regardless of where they studied for the degree.
I do however target those universities where I have previously had good people from. The standard of graduates from the different universities does vary and some courses seem to produce grads more suited to the type of work my employer does, many of those are the Russell group ones.
If your lad ends up not liking engineering or wants to get onto a grad training scheme then the choice or university matters a lot. Or at least it does if he is capable of getting job offers from the best employers.
Once he’s got a couple of years experience it really doesn’t make any difference. That’s down to capability and ambition.
Once he’s got a couple of years experience it really doesn’t make any difference. That’s down to capability and ambition.
I went to a scrubbed up only poly, Coventry Uni.
The degree course was excellent, I learned loads… and I have never once had the feeling that the Uni name/reputation held me back. I will say that the fact my degree was accredited by IMechE helped me many times, in terms of recognition in foreign countries. So check that out.
Thankfully, the engineering field I work in seems to be based on more practical matters.
The degree course was excellent, I learned loads… and I have never once had the feeling that the Uni name/reputation held me back. I will say that the fact my degree was accredited by IMechE helped me many times, in terms of recognition in foreign countries. So check that out.
Thankfully, the engineering field I work in seems to be based on more practical matters.
Depends on how much experience I am hiring for.
If I am hiring graduates or people with less than 3-4 years experience, then University is quite a key factor as there is so little else to go on. It’s an indicator of how bright and capable someone might be, albeit not that reliable, but you have to use something to sift CVs.
If I am hiring people with 4+ years experience then it starts to become a secondary factor and job experience takes over, both what they’ve done and who they’ve worked for. This time what company can be a useful indicator albeit not a reliable one.
Once people have 7-10 years plus experience then I tend to use what they’ve done as the main indicator, and what company is less relevant, and university pretty minor. I’ve hired plenty of people with quite a poor early academic record but who have gone on to achieve in their career.
So do think a good Uni helps earlier on in your career, as sifting CVs is very much a case of just looking for evidence of achievement and quality, and when there’s not much else to go on, it gives hirers a proof point.
If I am hiring graduates or people with less than 3-4 years experience, then University is quite a key factor as there is so little else to go on. It’s an indicator of how bright and capable someone might be, albeit not that reliable, but you have to use something to sift CVs.
If I am hiring people with 4+ years experience then it starts to become a secondary factor and job experience takes over, both what they’ve done and who they’ve worked for. This time what company can be a useful indicator albeit not a reliable one.
Once people have 7-10 years plus experience then I tend to use what they’ve done as the main indicator, and what company is less relevant, and university pretty minor. I’ve hired plenty of people with quite a poor early academic record but who have gone on to achieve in their career.
So do think a good Uni helps earlier on in your career, as sifting CVs is very much a case of just looking for evidence of achievement and quality, and when there’s not much else to go on, it gives hirers a proof point.
Sheepshanks said:
rustyuk said:
I went to an old polly but worked at a Russell Group Uni.
The difference was like night and day.
I recall seeing a software engineering job advert that asked for a degree “from a proper university, not a scrubbed up old poly.”The difference was like night and day.
Firstly it's absolutely true that university careers departments regularly receive job adverts from employers which include the wording "Must have a 2:1 from a good university." Exact wording which is why it's in quote marks. That suggests there is definitely discrimination in terms of even having a chance to get a foot on that first rung.
Problem is definition of a good university, a lot of people including some on here immediately jump 'well that means Russell Group and definitely none of the post 92 unis.' Trouble is membership of Russell Group is no objective measure of the education a student will get, it's simply a self selected pressure group of universities that are more research driven in order to get a bigger slice of Govt money.
That's the jaundiced view. More objectively, the upper end of the Russell group rankings, such as the one I attended, though there was no such thing as Russell then, are good institutions in most respects, quality of education, research, and graduate outcomes, e.g. the jobs that follow university education. Gets a bit more squirrelly lower down the tree though and there are definitely none Russell group unis, with excellent research programmes and excellent teaching. Many of those names would be recognisable as long standing institutions, plus the devil in the detail would say there are some post 92s with excellent graduate outcomes for students who have studied in particular occupational focussed areas, as always devil in the detail, needs careful research, asking questions, and a clear focus from the student of which area they would like to spend a career. Latter could be a difficult one to figure out at this stage, unless they have a real interest in specifics.
Now the second part of the answer, what happens to the job advert when it arrives at the university careers dept. It doesn't appear automatically it has to be approved by careers staff. You might ask why, and the answer to that is there are some really pretty bloody dodgy exploitative adverts coming in from odd organisations, sometimes not even a proper company.
Anyway let's move on, here in the advert approval stage it gets a bit more tricky for e.g. some post 92s. It might be an advert asking for as above, "2:1 good university" or an advert to a Midlands uni for a job based in Scotland. You'd think, being all innocent, that the response would be, oh goody gumdrops, an advert from this employer looking for one of our students, approve it, put it on the system, all opportunities, more the merrier. Nope.
What can and does happen is that the "2:1 job" is rejected on the grounds that "the discrimination really does exist, our students are never going to get an interview, they're only here because their A level tariff points weren't high enough to go elsewhere", implication they're a bit thick, so "putting that advert on the system will end up discouraging them and causing them to disengage from the careers system." Similarly the advert for Scotland, only "x% of our students are from Scotland originally, only got another 3 doing remote Masters from Scotland, so the remaining 90+% will look at the advert and say nothing for me and disengage. "
I can sort of see the point somewhat, it's difficult enough to get students to engage or even think about career planning without putting discouraging steps in their path, but personally I'm not convinced. However to do otherwise needs far more resources in careers and engagement from the academics who actually know their students. Those resources are simply not there, and to try and deal with everyone risks using up scant resource on a very small % of students.
In short as far as OP son is concerned don't just think it's only about Russell group, certainly if he has or gets the tariff points then it does deal with some hurdles, but if he has a specific career path or interest in mind it's worth widening the vision a bit.
HTH
Thanks for the responses guys, very helpful, the lads school seem to be keen that he chase russell group, as he has strong predicted grades. Unfortunately, open days have all been virtual this year so you cant get a feel for the “vibe”.
At present he has Edinburgh, Durham, Bath, sheffield, Exeter, S’hampton, Lancaster,Glasgow on his list so need to trim a couple off.
I am not sure he has a clear end point in terms of career, as with most 17 year olds a job in F1 would be awesome, but he is realistic enough to know that that is a tiny proportion of jobs in engineering.
At present he has Edinburgh, Durham, Bath, sheffield, Exeter, S’hampton, Lancaster,Glasgow on his list so need to trim a couple off.
I am not sure he has a clear end point in terms of career, as with most 17 year olds a job in F1 would be awesome, but he is realistic enough to know that that is a tiny proportion of jobs in engineering.
Depends what flavour of engineering he want's to get in to, some Russell group universities will not necessarily have a good reputation in that specialism, while other non Russell one will. I think the Russell Group thing is probably more of an advantage in some other subjects than it is more practical subjects like engineering (I am not a recruiter though)
When I did Aeronautical Engineering <cough> years ago, Loughborough, UMIST, Bath and Imperial were generally considered among the better ones for the course, and the job I went in to recruited the majority of thier new grads from Loughborough and Bath. Loughborough was a "centre of excellence" for gas turbine research and had really strong ties with Rolls Royce. I would definitely look at the specific course, thier facilities and thier ties to industry rather than just focus on which university it is.
When I did Aeronautical Engineering <cough> years ago, Loughborough, UMIST, Bath and Imperial were generally considered among the better ones for the course, and the job I went in to recruited the majority of thier new grads from Loughborough and Bath. Loughborough was a "centre of excellence" for gas turbine research and had really strong ties with Rolls Royce. I would definitely look at the specific course, thier facilities and thier ties to industry rather than just focus on which university it is.
I used to do a lot of graduate scheme recruitment for a large retailer in the Technology department. The Russel group criteria was there just to manage the number of applications. We used to accept approximately 20 per year and had over 500 applicants just from Russel group universities.
The key thing is what he wants to do with it afterwards. Once you know that have a look at grad scheme recruitment ads on the relevant companies websites and see what they require. May not be a fair system but it is what it is. I don't think there is a blanket answer, many companies will have close ties with particular universities.
You didn't say what type of engineering, but my daughter is in Yr2 of Mech Eng at Nottingham and very happy. Bristol was also very impressive for Mech Eng.
The key thing is what he wants to do with it afterwards. Once you know that have a look at grad scheme recruitment ads on the relevant companies websites and see what they require. May not be a fair system but it is what it is. I don't think there is a blanket answer, many companies will have close ties with particular universities.
You didn't say what type of engineering, but my daughter is in Yr2 of Mech Eng at Nottingham and very happy. Bristol was also very impressive for Mech Eng.
sawman said:
Thanks for the responses guys, very helpful, the lads school seem to be keen that he chase russell group, as he has strong predicted grades. Unfortunately, open days have all been virtual this year so you cant get a feel for the “vibe”.
At present he has Edinburgh, Durham, Bath, sheffield, Exeter, S’hampton, Lancaster,Glasgow on his list so need to trim a couple off.
I am not sure he has a clear end point in terms of career, as with most 17 year olds a job in F1 would be awesome, but he is realistic enough to know that that is a tiny proportion of jobs in engineering.
My nephew is studying Engineering at Sheffield on a 4 year Masters. Let's just say that he's applied for a internship in Brixworth.At present he has Edinburgh, Durham, Bath, sheffield, Exeter, S’hampton, Lancaster,Glasgow on his list so need to trim a couple off.
I am not sure he has a clear end point in terms of career, as with most 17 year olds a job in F1 would be awesome, but he is realistic enough to know that that is a tiny proportion of jobs in engineering.
sawman said:
At present he has Edinburgh, Durham, Bath, sheffield, Exeter, S’hampton, Lancaster,Glasgow on his list so need to trim a couple off.
Not a bad listOut of them though, I would say the Durham Eng course is the best.
A 4 year accredited (not all are) mEng with a general component and specialising for the later years course based heavily on the Cambridge syllabus. Because of this you need to be good at maths / further maths but a great course all in.
Plus at Durham, you benefit from the college system which I would say makes for a far superior experience in terms of friendship groups with college life.
(Slightly biased as that’s the course I did)
sawman said:
My lad is in the process of applying to university to read engineering. He has a shortlist, some of which are russell group, some not.
As no doubt there are some powerfully built execs here, my question is does it make much difference to career prospects if undergrad study is at a russell group uni or not?
As no doubt there are some powerfully built execs here, my question is does it make much difference to career prospects if undergrad study is at a russell group uni or not?
I didn't think it made a difference (in fact I didn't even realise Russell Group was a "thing" when i went) but my kids said it was extremely important from a future Employers point of view. My son said that the likes of Google, Facebook, Amazon etc had a preference not only for RG but certain Universities within the RG. Another thing he said was that certain Universities were regarded highly for certain subjects; for example if you wanted to study Physics then University X was the one that was most highly regarded, whereas if you wanted to study Maths you would apply to University Y.
fat80b said:
sawman said:
At present he has Edinburgh, Durham, Bath, sheffield, Exeter, S’hampton, Lancaster,Glasgow on his list so need to trim a couple off.
Not a bad listOut of them though, I would say the Durham Eng course is the best.
A 4 year accredited (not all are) mEng with a general component and specialising for the later years course based heavily on the Cambridge syllabus. Because of this you need to be good at maths / further maths but a great course all in.
Plus at Durham, you benefit from the college system which I would say makes for a far superior experience in terms of friendship groups with college life.
(Slightly biased as that’s the course I did)
If he's doing automotive/mechanical engineering and wants to actually work in the field (lots move to finance as it's much better paid!) then find a course with a strong work placement / year in industry scheme.
Some proper work experience is worth way more than a "prestigious" university when applying as a grad.
Some proper work experience is worth way more than a "prestigious" university when applying as a grad.
fat80b said:
sawman said:
At present he has Edinburgh, Durham, Bath, sheffield, Exeter, S’hampton, Lancaster,Glasgow on his list so need to trim a couple off.
Not a bad listOut of them though, I would say the Durham Eng course is the best.
I wouldn't worry about Russell Group or not, I would worry about which was a better university. I don't think Bath is Russell Group, but that wouldn't put me off going there.
Yes a Russell group university is a good indication in general.
However more important to understand the quality and rating of the degree course and how it is perceived.
A well respected course in a non Russell group university will be better than an also ran course in a Russell group institution.
Hope that you find your way through. I am afraid that I cannot help specifically with engineering courses, but I am sure someone on here will be of more use to you.
However more important to understand the quality and rating of the degree course and how it is perceived.
A well respected course in a non Russell group university will be better than an also ran course in a Russell group institution.
Hope that you find your way through. I am afraid that I cannot help specifically with engineering courses, but I am sure someone on here will be of more use to you.
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